Nerf the no-brainer spells

[KoboldLord]

Yes, I agree with all of that. Coming up with a specific proposal (formulas/numbers) for the low-hanging fruit would be very useful. Hinthint

A (power/5) boost to AC against ranged attacks would probably be pretty solid for Repel Missiles. At around early Lair, an air elementalist training charms regularly would break 50 spell power fairly easily, for an average of 5hp armor reduction against ranged attacks. If damage is reduced to 0, no effect procs from dispersal, exploding, etc. brands on the attack. That's enough to shut down kobolds throwing darts, and will occasionally block centaur arrows and orc wizards' Throw Flame, but generally speaking part of the damage from any appropriate threat will get through. If the player runs into an OOD dragon, they still have to run. A caster with a different focus will have less reduction; a wizard trying to get by on the bare minimum charms and air in order to get Bolt of Foo or Throw Icicle online is going to have around 15 spell power, for only about 1.5hp armor reduction against ranged attacks. Might not be worth it yet for the wizard, and might not be worth it ever for more xp-demanding builds, like transmuters. In the post-endgame, a Tornado Crusader who takes pains to max out air and charms (scoff here for maxing charms) and is packing a staff of air will be able to essentially ignore yaktaur packs and will reliably shave 20hp extra off Iron Bolts and Crystal Spears, but a more typical character will have maybe 27 spellcasting, 13 charms, and 8 air, for around 90 spell power, give or take for intelligence. That's around 9hp average reduction, which will definitely help but won't solve yaktaur problems all by itself. Deflect Missiles can either have a 1.5x multiplier, or it can just continue past a spell power cap that's applied to Repel Missiles. Note that applying the bonus to AC rather than its current implementation is intentional -- reducing the monster hit bonus allows users to double-dip because the effect kicks in against both EV and SH. AC has a much more predictable benefit as it rises compared to the other two, which asymptotically approach invulnerability once they get past the monster hit bonus.

Swiftness probably needs to produce glow. It's essentially mini-Haste, and it's going to be problematic for the same reasons if the player can keep it up permanently. Additionally, if the delay reduction was changed to floor(power/50)+1d2-1, a character just dabbling in charms and air would only get any bonus at all about half the time. To be guaranteed the ability to outrun those orcs, you'd have to train the relevant skills at least somewhat, and further training is meaningful. At full power, you get the Flight bonus without Flight, but remember that's a dedicated Tornado Crusader we're talking about there, not typical at all.

Abjuration simply needs to not affect everything on the screen. A single smite-targeted tile, or a Fireball-sized AoE with line-of-effect would probably do. If monster summoning needs to be nerfed afterward, fine. The standoff between monsters that can summon multiple 1s in a single turn and players that can dispel multiple 1s in that same turn can be fixed by simply disarming both.

For Blink, I believe the real problem is the cheap availability of teleport control. It isn't really a problem that a caster can rope-a-dope a hill giant under controlled conditions in a safe area, and the risk that it'll dump you into melee with the isolated threat is non-trivial even if you take pains to stack the odds in your favor. The problem is when Blink becomes a nearly 100% reliable 1-action escape route against every threatening opponent(s). Even ranged threats can't get you if you can break LOS, the edge of which is rarely farther than one semi-controlled Blink away. The Teleport Control spell would be a more costly investment at level 6 or 7; the food cost would be non-trivial for nearly all characters to say nothing about an average of 12 to 14 levels of translocations and charms. The ring of teleport control would take its place alongside levitation and invisibility as an evocations-triggered effect, which must be triggered in advance rather than turned on and left that way. Perma-CTele is too good for many of the same reasons perma-Inv would be.

[galehar]

Thanks, many great ideas in your post.
About spell power, note that reaching 200 is only possible with several enhancers, which is only possible for fire and ice. For air, consider about 150 as a reasonable maximum with a staff of air and 125 without.

[pratamawirya]

Can we just remove Repel Missiles? It's merely a low-level version of Deflect Missiles, which makes it terribly dull, and I think Deflect "feels better."

Makes sense.

Swiftness might be reasonable balance-wise if it one cast only lasted five turns.

Or, we can make it disturb the caster's combat stability. Less accurate attacks, etc.

We can also make Controlled Blink allow exact blinking to one, two, three, n squares away depending on spell power.

[Zuboki]

The people who this line of thinking will really hurt are the hybrids branching into spellcasting. While it's pretty easy for a conjurer to pick up a few defensive and protective spells to the side without sacrificing much, a character who's trained in armour since level 1 but has only the base level of Spellcasting will require a decent chunk of training to get his Spellcasting and Magic schools of choice up to a level where he can cast at "Good", and he'd have to forgo wearing the heavier armours that he could possibly get away with if he wasn't so heartset on his utility spell of choice. Sure, he wouldn't run into the spell-slot dilemma of casters, but he has to deal with the fact that some spells will be forever off limits to him (mostly the ones above 5th level)

[KoboldLord]

Can we just remove Repel Missiles? It's merely a low-level version of Deflect Missiles, which makes it terribly dull, and I think Deflect "feels better."

I don't think that making charms completely useless at low levels while leaving it overpowered at high levels is really much of an improvement. Currently the only five charms spells at L3 or below that have any use at all for most casting characters are Levitation, Swiftness, Repel Missiles, Regeneration, and Ozocubu's Armor, and several of these are either rare or only worthwhile for particular builds. I do not think that it is a good design strategy to force charms-users to train with spells that are literally useless for their current character, such as Fire Brand on a character who has already upgraded to a permanently branded weapon, in order to get access to overpowered benefits from Deflect Missiles and Haste.

I believe that there is a place in the game for low-level charms effects, but they should have a level-appropriate benefit. Repel Missiles currently does too much, and more alarmingly it effectively stacks with every other relevant effect.

A flat way to nerf all charms and charm-like effects would be to greatly reduce their duration. Swiftness might be reasonable balance-wise if it one cast only lasted five turns. This would also conveniently get rid of the problem of people constantly and tediously maintaining a bunch of charms during exploration, as even a Sif mummy won't have enough MP to keep up.

That sounds like it would be pretty obnoxious on the interface, to force the player to tediously hit a hotkey every five turns. Additionally, since you would spend one of those five turns doing absolutely nothing but buffing your movement speed, you'd need a +25% bonus to movement just to break even. Swiftness should probably not actually slow you down. Better just to remove Swiftness than demand such a fiddly routine during combat.

[galehar]

I like the idea of repel missiles providing an AC bonus instead of an EV one, it fits the flavour of the spell. I wouldn't change deflect missiles though. Maybe tweak the numbers, but keep the flavour.
Are you sure about rmsl/dmsl increasing your chance to block? From a quick source check, it doesn't seem to be the case.

[dpeg]

Many thanks for the good post, KoboldLord. I like all the basic ideas in there.

[Shade]

Cudos. This all sounds good to me, though it means I'll splat more.

Abjuration simply needs to not affect everything on the screen. A single smite-targeted tile, or a Fireball-sized AoE with line-of-effect would probably do. If monster summoning needs to be nerfed afterward, fine. The standoff between monsters that can summon multiple 1s in a single turn and players that can dispel multiple 1s in that same turn can be fixed by simply disarming both.

Abjuration was always a spell that struck me as odd in a, "So I just spam this and they go away?" sort of way. A person could easily see up to 3 spells: A lower-medium level Smite targeted spell that's resist or poof, a medium-high level Fireball or Mephitic Cloud (that lingers for a couple to handful of turns) type spell, and / or a high level ring or sphere of abjuration that lasts a couple to a handful of turns and extends out 2 - 4 tiles from the player. 3 spells is probably overkill though...

[dpeg]

I don't see what's wrong with variable running speed during Swiftness: if trying to escape an ogre (for example), you'd see pretty well if and how many steps you gain.

[dpeg]

minmay: This may be my sloppy way of playng coming through (I never count steps or compute monster hit points or damage) but I believe the issue could be solved in a less complicated way (than show_real_turns. The transition power -> running speed boost could be (a) deterministic and (b) ideally relate to the power bar shown at the I screen. Casting Swiftness could give "You feel [adverb] more swift." This would give players two ways to estimate speed gain.

[absolutego]

i think this is rather moot. swiftness currently reduces your movement delay by 2. it should do something if you can cast it regardless of spell power, so it should at least reduce same by 1. if you cap it at 2, you're just messing with everyone's heads. if you allow it to go further, you're actually buffing it.

most of koboldlord's suggestion are spot-on though, at least regarding repel missiles, abjuration and teleport control (three big offenders). i'm not sure about teleport control as evokable from the ring, but it does sound intriguing. and controlled blink could very well be level 8 or even 9.

I like the idea of repel missiles providing an AC bonus instead of an EV one, it fits the flavour of the spell.

you'd have to change the name of the spell though, as it's not repelling them anymore. i posit 'nerf missiles' (dur dur).

[PorkSol]

Speaking of no brainers... anyone want to take a stab at Necromutation?

[KoboldLord]

Are you sure about rmsl/dmsl increasing your chance to block? From a quick source check, it doesn't seem to be the case.

I'm going by henzell, and not source-diving, so there's definitely the potential for error on my part. Henzell says that Repel Missiles reduces the monster hit roll to a random value between 0 and its starting value, and the formula for both evasion and shield blocking reference the monster hit roll as the number those values are compared against. It is absolutely possible that either something has changed since those entries were written or clarification could be necessary.

A valid point about taking away the uses for low-level spells, but Deflect Missiles is one of the least useful buffs at the moment. If it's overpowered, it probably means the entire class of spells is so ridiculous that it should just be removed. (Flashbacks to 0.6's removal of the Divinations school...)

There's also Haste, you know. If you can reach Deflect Missiles you've probably already gotten Haste.

That said, if Deflect Missiles is one of the least useful buffs, that's only because it's high enough in level that most games don't reach the point where it's usable. Doing Shoals 5, Slime, and the late Vaults and Dungeon is a remarkably different experience with Deflect vs. Repel Missiles.

In the early game you could still use it to flee up the stairs from an ogre or something. It would be a lot less useful later and in general, but the point is to nerf it after all.
I really do not like the idea of making the delay reduction variable. You'd be checking your speed every turn, and it would frequently be unclear whether you could outrun a particular monster.

Well, yeah, that's the idea. Right now, you can memorize a list of all monsters that are completely trivialized the moment you cast Swiftness, and they will be trivialized with absolute reliability. If the bonus is slightly randomized, you still need a plan to deal with that spiny frog if your spell power roll decides to crap out on you.

i think this is rather moot. swiftness currently reduces your movement delay by 2. it should do something if you can cast it regardless of spell power, so it should at least reduce same by 1. if you cap it at 2, you're just messing with everyone's heads. if you allow it to go further, you're actually buffing it.

Yeah, the granularity of the bonus doesn't really allow for much to work with when modifying the spell. If the bonus goes beyond 2, it definitely needs to stop stacking with Haste at the very least.

Speaking of no brainers... anyone want to take a stab at Necromutation?

I'm not sure Necromutation is really a problem. Perhaps I'm biased because the one time I've gotten it castable before collecting all 15 Runes I ended up getting a shadow fiend air-dropped onto me in Tartarus while I was trying to approach a silent spectre, but it doesn't seem to help nearly as much as the 9th-level elemental super-spells, Haste, or Controlled Blink. It's high-level, requires significant investment in two magic skills that have very little pre-endgame synergy, one of which isn't very useful for most characters. Torment resistance is offered by the simple expedient of murderizing everything you see before it can react, and the other significant benefits can be covered by jewelry switching. It's a staple in Ziggurat running, but I don't know if I like the idea of balancing spells around Ziggurats.

[jejorda2]

I've only had one character who could reliably cast deflect missile, and he felt untouchable. Between evasion, a buckler, and DMissile, nothing ever hit him. Maybe Deflect Missile could be changed such that when something is deflected, there is a flat 20% chance that it delivers a glancing blow instead of a clean miss, which means the attack does, say, 25% damage?

Then you couldn't safely stand in front of a dozen yaktaurs deflecting all the bolts and channeling more mp, since those bolts would still do 5% of the damage they do without the spell .


Here are some ideas for Swiftness:

If the wind is making you move faster, what if that wind increased the movement speed of everything in LOS? Then you'd have to use sight lines to make yourself faster, and it would be more difficult to get away.

Or let swiftness act like a cloud spell, and use smite targeting to create area of swiftness where everything moves faster. It would be something like Leda's liquefaction in reverse, but it doesn't have to move with the player.

Or choose a wind direction when casting, and make movement faster in that direction, slower in the opposing direction, and unchanged in perpendicular directions. Angled movement could have half effects. This could work for the current "player is faster" model or a new "area is faster" model.

Or let the wind shift direction after a time, slowing movement. This would make a drawback along the lines of berzerk, where it's helpful now and harmful later. This idea could also apply to the player speed or area speed model.

[mrbobbyg]

So while I do understand a need to lower the utility of the no-brainer spells, what this looks like to me now is a major nerf to AE.

[Jeremiah]

So while I do understand a need to lower the utility of the no-brainer spells, what this looks like to me now is a major nerf to AE.

It looks more like a nerf of everyone except AE - an AE with high air magic will still be likely to be able to cast these spells at high power and so gain the full benefit - which will be something of a nerf compared to now, but for characters without high air magic it will be much more of a nerf.

[MrMisterMonkey]

I noticed some talk about abjuration
It was already split into two spells a while ago in the demons branch
A level 3 single-target "Abjuration"
and a level 7 "Mass Abjuration" that affects everything in LOS (as per current abjuration)

Sadly, not much seems to be happening with that branch, anymore.

[Tiber]

Swiftness, if not nerfed in some other way, could easily be made level 3, or even possibly level 4.
Repel missiles weakening ranged attacks sounds like an interesting idea; if we do that, one thought I've had is to make stoneskin into a spell designed to give protection from melee attacks.
As for tele-control, there's also the idea on the wiki of removing the ring, and combining it with the amulet of controlled flight.
Abjuration is overpowered, but its necessary with how the game is now. And considering it's only in one book, it's highly luck based. Something I'd like to see is a hexes/translocation spell that makes it harder for enemies to summon in the first place. Other possibilities include adding this effect to the amulet of warding, or giving the antimagic brand a bonus against summoned creatures.

[mrbobbyg]

So while I do understand a need to lower the utility of the no-brainer spells, what this looks like to me now is a major nerf to AE.

It looks more like a nerf of everyone except AE - an AE with high air magic will still be likely to be able to cast these spells at high power and so gain the full benefit - which will be something of a nerf compared to now, but for characters without high air magic it will be much more of a nerf.

Tis a good point, but AE without swiftness is very difficult to play. Since zap and lightning are really weak unless you bi, tri, quad hit with them you really need to be moving quickly to set those up.

[XuaXua]

I am not sure whacking low level spells, which are frequently used to train to use high level spells, are a good idea unless 2-3 low level spells per school were truly set aside to be considered training (and useful) spells; meaning whatever these few per school are shouldn't get nerfed. I know the system well enough to suggest this tactic, but I don't know the schools well enough to pick the appropriate spells.

[galehar]

I like the idea of repel missiles providing an AC bonus instead of an EV one, it fits the flavour of the spell.

you'd have to change the name of the spell though, as it's not repelling them anymore. i posit 'nerf missiles' (dur dur).

If we go with the physics meaning of repel, it works. The spell pushes away incoming missiles, so they are slowed down. An AC bonus is a great way to simulate a smaller impact. It only works on physical missiles, not magical beams (which helps make deflect missiles more relevant).
edit: if damage is reduced to 0, the missile is effectively stopped (matrix-style) and land on the cell before you, instead of at your position.

Changing the way the ring interacts with teleportitis might be a bad thing, actually. Right now, the mutation is bad (more annoying than harmful, but still worse than most), and a ring of control teleport is one way to manage the effect. You'll get prompted for a teleport every once and a while, but it's easy enough to cancel them. This lets you (mostly) play the game normally, in exchange for giving up a ring slot (normally you'd only swap to cTele when needed, but teleportitis encourages you to wear it all the time). This seems like an interesting tradeoff to me and I don't like the idea of losing it. Of course, an amulet of stasis will also block teleportitis, but wearing that comes with much larger penalties, and I think it's good to have more than one day to deal with a problem (especially one as severe as teleportitis).

I think TC shouldn't work on hostile teleports. Not TC when stepping on a teletrap and on hostile teleport other spell. It's true that applying it to teleportitis would remove on of the few ways to deal with this nasty mutation. On the other hand, teleportitis with TC turns a very nasty mutation into a pretty good one. It would be really desirable if not for no-CTele levels. Since it's not hostile, but involuntary, we could say that when teleportitis triggers and you are wearing TC, you can cancel the teleport, but if you accept it, you can't control it. It could work with evocable TC, but it makes things quite complicated.

• Hostile teleport (trap, spell): no TC.
• involuntary teleport (teleportitis, passive effect of tele ring or randart propery): can be cancelled if wearing TC (no need to evoke it) or have the TC spell active. Can't be controlled.
• self teleport (scroll, wand, evoked ring): can be controlled with spell, or evoked TC ring.

[absolutego]

edit: if damage is reduced to 0, the missile is effectively stopped (matrix-style) and land on the cell before you, instead of at your position.

nice bit of flavour! the same could be applied to deflect missiles, chucking deflected arrows one or two squares around you (without hurting anyone around you). both would also help you understand what's going on in every turn without reading the messages, which is always a (big) plus.

on teleport control: sounds mostly ok, but juggling that stuff in your head is never pretty, and that's for veteran, spoiled players. wouldn't it be simpler to just make glow way worse, to make it less desirable? the main problem with teleport control is how good it is with voluntary blinks or teleports. (it'd solve the problem with teleportitis and cTele too, as it'd still be very good but you'd have to manage glow.)

[dolphin]

Mods, should the topic be split off into "Nerf the No-brainers" and "TC Discussion and Revision?" I realize that general posts do tend to filter down into one specific item, but I think that the OP is useful and serves as good jumping off place for smaller discussions.

[galehar]

Mods, should the topic be split off into "Nerf the No-brainers" and "TC Discussion and Revision?" I realize that general posts do tend to filter down into one specific item, but I think that the OP is useful and serves as good jumping off place for smaller discussions.

Done.