Incoming Amulet Reform Discussion

[Lasty]

When did I ever suggest that rings and amulets should switch places? That would be ridiculous. I suggested that rings be made unswappable, and if you want swappable resistances, move the resistance rings to a swappable single-item slot (which needn't be the amulet slot). There is no reason to change rings of dexterity, evasion, intelligence, invisibility, flight, loudness, magical power, protection, slaying, stealth, strength, teleportation, or wizardry, unless you also want those to be swappable for some reason.

I'm also not convinced that moving the resistance rings to the amulet slot and keeping the unswappable amulets would be at all bad.

Ah, I misunderstood what you were getting at. I'm not familiar with this suggestion. What mechanism would block swapping rings?

It's good evidence that losing those things isn't a fundamental change to the game, and that it doesn't make the game significantly less winnable.

I disagree. Worshipping Qaz makes the game radically different by constantly making a ton of noise, and worshipping Chei makes the character baseline slower, and worshipping Trog means receiving heavy punishment for casting spells. Making any of those a default condition rather than an aspect of a specific god choice would fundamentally change the game. Similarly, that one god allows you to take one ring slot as a penalty of worshipping that god doesn't imply that the game wouldn't be fundamentally different if that too were a default condition. Or maybe we just define "fundamentally different" differently.

[duvessa]

When did I ever suggest that rings and amulets should switch places? That would be ridiculous. I suggested that rings be made unswappable, and if you want swappable resistances, move the resistance rings to a swappable single-item slot (which needn't be the amulet slot). There is no reason to change rings of dexterity, evasion, intelligence, invisibility, flight, loudness, magical power, protection, slaying, stealth, strength, teleportation, or wizardry, unless you also want those to be swappable for some reason.

I'm also not convinced that moving the resistance rings to the amulet slot and keeping the unswappable amulets would be at all bad.

Ah, I misunderstood what you were getting at. I'm not familiar with this suggestion. What mechanism would block swapping rings?

I would just make them take a long time to put on, like armour.

edit: If someone contests the flavour of this: how long does it take you to put on a hat or a pair of gloves in real life?

[archaeo]

I get the feeling that that would be more tedious, duvessa, not less; you'd end up having to do a lot more running away to swap resist items than you do currently, anyway.

[Shard1697]

You've never had both a frost giant and a fire giant in LoS in depths, where they're both common?

I've never chosen to fight both a frost giant and a fire giant simultaneously when they were so dangerous I would need two resistances, no.

You've never met a draconian pack?

Never encountered a situation where resistances beyond rF+ were useful for those.

I don't really agree with the idea that you'll always have an out and will always be able to choose your battles to the point of never having to fight more than one enemy at once. It doesn't hold up with my experiences in the game at all(and it's not like I haven't played this game much, I've dumped hundreds of hours into it).

What happens when you go down a staircase and two enemies which hit different resists are both next to you? Sure, you could lead them both up and then do some complicated shenanigans to separate them-but wouldn't it be nice to just have both resists covered so you can more safely kill them both right there?

[duvessa]

I get the feeling that that would be more tedious, duvessa, not less; you'd end up having to do a lot more running away to swap resist items than you do currently, anyway.

???? It's the speed of swapping exterity, evasion, intelligence, invisibility, flight, loudness, magical power, protection, slaying, stealth, strength, teleportation, and wizardry that changes. Not the speed of swapping resistances.

[Ceann]

So what I am noticing so far in playing Trunk is that I sort of feel like these new amulets don't have a purpose.
If I find Faith or Regen I wear those and the others I don't just pay any attention too, Dismissal seems like it would be usable on a caster though.
While rMut and Clarity had narrow functions, they had a function. I don't see what the function of these new amulets actually is.

Amulet of Harm, if I am playing a high HP race "although most of those have a bunch of armor restrictions so they have low AC" using it might be okay because you can take some extra damage. On the lower HP races, you already have to make strategic decisions in order to stay alive. You could cover all of D:1 with randart Amulet of Harm and a Sp or Fe or DE would probably not consider using them anyway because the risk vs reward is not worth it. First Gnollbred or Cyclops rock kills you instantly when you take 25% more damage.

Dismissal, on a caster this might save you from something faster than you once or twice, like an ugly thing, or Killer Bees, Anaconda, Black Mamba etc. But it is also equally as likely to get you killed in a single lane hallway if it blinks something behind you and you get stuck in the middle.

So far what the reform seems to be is taking things that have a occasional/moderate use and replacing them with others that so far seem kind of useless. In the case of these two I might actually rather be stuck wearing an Amulet of Inaccuracy rather than having them on and that doesn't seem like something I should actually consider.

It seems like we want amulets to be unique effects and powerful enough that you aren't thinking of swapping them all the time but if the item's are ultimately problematic to wear then people just won't use them. Sure I don't wear Clarity all the time but when I put it on I know exactly what I am getting out of it. These other two seem to have too much of a "RNG" feel to them or at least that has been my experience and in Crawl it is RNG events that usually get you killed because things were happening that you could not control. Intentionally introducing more RNG events on yourself seems suicidal to me.

[WingedEspeon]

I did wear clairity all the time on some characters. I was a lot better than having to carefully manage my hunger level to avoid being able to bezerk and they having to eat when I actualy was to zerk. The amulet of harm is a good swap itme to use when using a ranged attack vs melee only monsters and then swap out when they get into melee range or when a ranged monster shows up. It has a benefit that is more swap encouraging than clarity because clarity at least has no downsides. However, because of the draining you can't use the amulet in an otherwise optimal fashion. I still stand by my statement that a non-swapable clarity amulet would be more useful than harm. Non-swapable clarity would be useful to wear all the time in spider. It would be useful to wear all the time as a mummy with incomplete MR. It would be useful if you get the bezerkeritis mutation. It would be useful if you find a nice artifact with *RAGE like the sword of jihad. Compare that list to the list of characters that find it beneficial to wear harm all the time/ an extended period of time:

As you can see all the time clarity is more useful than all the time harm.

Ceann very nicely puts exactly how good dismissal is.

What you are doing is introducing a bunch of amulets that are good as swaps and nothing else and then not letting you swap them. You could just save yourself a bunch of trouble by just taking the current amulets and making them not swapable.

I really don't mind that much that clairity was removed (I care that you gave us an amulet worse than innac and then tried to claim that it might be useful) but I do care about the removal of stasis. Paralysis is often times an instadeath and stasis at least gave you some counterplay. Amulet of MR++ would be way more useful than any amulet you have given us so far and amulet of MR+ would still be more useful but would still result in some stupid deaths where it didn't give you enough MR to survive paralysis. This is pretty sad because MR+ is a ring effect and amulets are suppose to be more powerful than rings with this new reform.

[byrel]

Amulet of dismissal seems really good vs early-game centaurs...

[Speleothing]

So far what the reform seems to be is taking things that have a occasional/moderate use and replacing them with others that so far seem kind of useless.

Correct.
Bring back rMut, Clarity, and Stasis. The entire point of jewelry is to have swappable resists. If you don't like people swapping in regen, then remove regen or have it take away health when removed. But having the three jewelry resists are actually useful and kinda important to the way enemies are balanced.

I had initially planned torment as the cost for removing regen -- it's a similar penalty to removing faith, in that it removes some of the resource you just gained. Other devs felt that this would be irritating,

The other devs were wrong.

[byrel]

I don't think torment would be unreasonable, but I have to admit I prefer the current 'No regen till full" mechanic.

[dynast]

Bring back rMut, Clarity, and Stasis. The entire point of jewelry is to have swappable resists. If you don't like people swapping in regen, then remove regen or have it take away health when removed. But having the three jewelry resists are actually useful and kinda important to the way enemies are balanced.

You have to understand that having rMut defeats the purpose of having malmutators in the game, even if it is not a 100% resist. The same way Clarity and Stasis defeats the purpose of having confusing, slowing and paralyzing enemies, as well as defeating the purpose of MR.

Apparently good gods like ely dont appreciate the use of amulet of harm, so i just ended up with a cursed one stuck on my neck and no warning given upon attacking a creature.

[Siegurt]

Bring back rMut, Clarity, and Stasis. The entire point of jewelry is to have swappable resists. If you don't like people swapping in regen, then remove regen or have it take away health when removed. But having the three jewelry resists are actually useful and kinda important to the way enemies are balanced.

You have to understand that having rMut defeats the purpose of having malmutators in the game, even if it is not a 100% resist. The same way Clarity and Stasis defeats the purpose of having confusing, slowing and paralyzing enemies, as well as defeating the purpose of MR.

Apparently good gods like ely dont appreciate the use of amulet of harm, so i just ended up with a cursed one stuck on my neck and no warning given upon attacking a creature.

I am not sure that is true. If you look at it from the other way around, you could interpret malmutators purpose as to cause a use for using an rMut amulet over some other amulet which would otherwise give you a benefit. I.e. malmutators plus rMut amulets present the possible opportunity cost of not using e.x. Faith. Similarly stated with clarity.

Rather than a simple gear check you can look at the system of rMut plus malmutators as an opportunity tax on using a different amulet.

[dynast]

rCorr, Clarity, Stasis, rMut dont give you benefits, they nullify mechanics from the game. Faith, Regen, Reflection and Rage are amulets with actual benefits. Maybe your argument would be true if you couldnt ever swap amulets. So now we are back to the swapping issue.

[Siegurt]

rCorr, Clarity, Stasis, rMut dont give you benefits, they nullify mechanics from the game. Faith, Regen, Reflection and Rage are amulets with actual benefits. Maybe your argument would be true if you couldnt ever swap amulets. So now we are back to the swapping issue.

Thats what I mean though, using rmut deprives you of regen reflection or rage for that combat, and not only deprives you of faith, but has a significant penalty associated.

I am not saying it is a perfectly (or even well) working mechanic, but it isn't like finding a rMut amulet means you have an unlimited no cost bypass for all mutations for the rest of the game either. There is a (probably insufficient) opportunity cost associated with using it.

[dynast]

I dont think not being able to use a beneficial amulet is a valid point specially since you dont need a amulet to win the game.

[Siegurt]

I dont think not being able to use a beneficial amulet is a valid point specially since you dont need a amulet to win the game.

You can also win the game without armour, a weapon or rings, or potions, or spells or a religion, using things makes the game easier, not using them is a cost.

"It is possible to do without this type of item" Is a non argument, you can argue that individual items are worse than nothing, or better or worse than another thing for that same slot, or not worth the costs involved. But claiming that doing without something isn't a cost at all simply because it is possible win without it doesn't make any sense.

If your argument was "all amulets are worse than no amulet at all" or even "all amulets are worse than rMut" it would be a logical counter to my point (one I would disagree with) but it doesn't sound like that is what you believe all.

I do not belive that the cost of using rMut at the expense of other amulets was *sufficient* or that the amulet being in the game along with mutators is an optimal solution in terms of an opportunity tax on the use of amulets like faith, but I do believe that the amulet doesn't comprise a no cost gear check for certain types of challenges.

[dynast]

Glad you realise its a non argument. Can you understand the difference between things that "makes the game fun" from things that "makes the game less fun"? Renegeration, reflect projectiles or a rage button are fun things to have. Now, if people consider it fun to have rMut, it is probably because malmutate is a thing they want to see go away, which is currently being discussed on CYC and being tweaked on trunk.

There is no point in introducing a mechanic to the game and then a item to get rid of that same mechanic. Its not like a elemental resistance since the purpose of elemental attacks are to bring your hp to zero, while malmutate, confusion, corrosion put you in unique situations.

[lazorexplosion]

That's an incredibly facetious argument.

Literally the whole point of adding randomized resist drops is to vary from game to game and within each game what kinds of things pose threats based on what you have available currently and what gear tradeoffs you have to accept to use those things. That is true for damage and it's true for non-direct damage effects.

Having an impactful, borderline too strong mechanics and impactful, borderline too strong counters is good design. When the game is tuned like that, when you don't have the counter you feel the pain of it acutely and when you get the counter the relief is palpable. That's exciting!

These sub mediocre replacement amulets aren't going to get my excitement up. Turning mutation into some mediocrity because oops we took out the counterbalance to it isn't going to get my excitement up.

Crawl is great and well designed because there are so many strong, powerful, swingy effects delicately counterbalanced against other strong, powerful, swingy effects and that keeps things fresh and exciting and with an unpredictable edge. The fact that resist mutation borderline too strongly nullifies a borderline too strong effect is a feature not a bug.

Complaining that a counter to a mechanic effectively counters the mechanic when you have it is like... so what?

You could just as easily whine about how rF++ trivializes fire monsters and attempt to take out fire resistance and tone down sources of fire damage to compensate for no one having fire resistance any more, and you know what you'd be doing? Making the game blander and the threats same-ier ever time you play.

And really, do people actually think fire resistance and fire damage and 'get fire resistance or die to fire orbs' is more interesting than mutation resistance and mutation and 'get it or take strategic damage that you can also deal with through strategic or tactical means'? Hell no.

Mutation/rMut is good as they stand right now. So is clarity/confusion. They are, if anything, the better designed, more interesting resistances.

Oh, let's take those out and replace them with mediocrities? No, god no.

[dynast]

Yeah, fire resistante makes fire enemies trivial. What do fire enemies do? they do damage. Its a standard game mechanic covered by a color, so does ice, elec, poison, negative energy, AC, EV and finally, HP itself. Meanwhile Confusion takes away the control over your character and malmutate handcaps you.

Are you actually saying that "its good design to implement mechanics that the player will hate to the point of resorting to tedious equipment management in order to avoid those same mechanics"?

[lazorexplosion]

Yeah, fire resistante makes fire enemies trivial. What do fire enemies do? they do damage. Its a standard game mechanic covered by a color, so does ice, elec, poison, negative energy, AC, EV and finally, HP itself. Meanwhile Confusion takes away the control over your character and malmutate handcaps you.

Are you actually saying that "its good design to implement mechanics that the player will hate to the point of resorting to tedious equipment management in order to avoid those same mechanics"?

So you're fine with the idea that fire resistance can make fire enemies trivial if you get it but somehow the idea that mutation resistance might make mutation enemies trivial is bad design? You realize how incoherent this is?

Fire resistance is basically get it or die. Having the choice to wear the resistance and not die or not wear the resistance and die - not particularly interesting. Having an effect and resistance where the penalty for lacking the resistance is accruing a handicap that's meaningful but has counterplay even if you lack the resistance and accrue the handicap; that's actually better and more interesting than 'you take more damage'. Having an effect and resistance where the penalty for lacking the resistance is the risk of dealing with a heavy tactical penalty is better and more interesting than 'you take more damage'.

You actually have the awareness to realize that players hate being mutated, but the awareness to take the next logical step and realize forcing players to deal with those hated mutations every game is a bad idea.

It's good that players hate being mutated. I hate being mutated. I grind my teeth and swear every time I see a mutator and I don't have resistance and rejoice in the relief of not having to do that every time the resistance turns up. That's emotion, that's engagement, excitement, variety. It's great!

And finally, the idea that swapping mutation resistance in is some sort of tedium is baffling. People seem to repeat it, and it's literally just wrong. In a three rune game, you might do it a dozen times, mostly at the end, and each time it's like P2 and then later P1. Wow, 50 extra keystrokes total in three to four hours for most games, such tedium. And even in extended, most floors you'd only do it a couple of times at most. Four to eight extra keys per floor is still nothing. Swapping weapons/rods/launchers around is like several orders of magnitude more fiddling and even that is basically fine. The supposed tedium of amulet swapping is ridiculously close to non-existence, because you just don't do it that often. The only tedious amulet currently is regeneration if you insist on micromanaging a swap in for every rest and even that is so minor you can easily decide to just not bother, or I guess you could macro it pretty easily, or it could be fixed with an easy anti swapping penalty on regeneration.

[duvessa]

Fire resistance is basically get it or die.

it's not remotely close to that

[lazorexplosion]

Fire resistance is basically get it or die.

it's not remotely close to that

Oh come one. I'm sure you could quibble that sometime in a blue moon some guy once won without fire resistance and got away with it but be realistic, in practice almost every run you just pick up one of the dozen sources of fire resistance that dropped somewhere on the run and wear it before you go to Zot because not doing that is pointlessly risking death.

[duvessa]

i do zot without rF all the time

[nago]

Do you ninja every oof or rely on summons /other cheap tactics or just !resistance?
And moreover, why? Swapping a rf+ ring when oof pop up is possible in most games, so...

[KittenInMyCerealz]

mechanics that the player will hate to the point of resorting to tedious equipment management in order to avoid those same mechanics"?

its funny you say that since it mostly applies to ringswapping resistances in.
in the case of amulets i barely change them around. if i have faith, its kept on until i want/need to swap it for rMut/Clarity, and usually ditch faith for forever after that. stasis i use on maybe 1 out of 20 games where i find it.

[duvessa]

Do you ninja every oof or rely on summons /other cheap tactics or just !resistance?

sometimes I kill them, sometimes I avoid them, just the same as usual

And moreover, why? Swapping a rf+ ring when oof pop up is possible in most games, so...

sometimes I don't find rF items that I want to wear

[dynast]

And finally, the idea that swapping mutation resistance in is some sort of tedium is baffling. People seem to repeat it, and it's literally just wrong. In a three rune game, you might do it a dozen times, mostly at the end, and each time it's like P2 and then later P1. Wow, 50 extra keystrokes total in three to four hours for most games, such tedium. And even in extended, most floors you'd only do it a couple of times at most. Four to eight extra keys per floor is still nothing. Swapping weapons/rods/launchers around is like several orders of magnitude more fiddling and even that is basically fine. The supposed tedium of amulet swapping is ridiculously close to non-existence, because you just don't do it that often. The only tedious amulet currently is regeneration if you insist on micromanaging a swap in for every rest and even that is so minor you can easily decide to just not bother, or I guess you could macro it pretty easily, or it could be fixed with an easy anti swapping penalty on regeneration.

Its not about the tedium, its the silliness, is it that hard to grasp? Try this: Instead of looking at your jewelry screen as your amulet choice window, look at it as a game menu interface where it says "rMut(on/off)". There was this game i played long time ago which i cant remember for sure which one it was(i think there are a ton of old games with that interface issue), where you can change the gameplay options DURING the gameplay.

If you want malmutate to check MR, fine, i can understand that, but i find very problematic when a game that is all about randomness throw IMMUNITIES for the player to easily swap through.

[dynast]

its funny you say that since it mostly applies to ringswapping resistances in.

Have you ever got letally poisoned while using a ring of poison resistance? I bet you did~
Honestly though the only problematic ring for me is Sinv, so much that it is always a relief when someone finds a hat with that ego.

[Sprucery]

If you want malmutate to check MR, fine, i can understand that, but i find very problematic when a game that is all about randomness throw IMMUNITIES for the player to easily swap through.

rMut amulet does not make you immune though. In fact, changing it from 90% protection to 80% or 70% might be the easiest fix (with also decreasing neqoxec spawn rate in extended).

[Siegurt]

Its not about the tedium, its the silliness, is it that hard to grasp? Try this: Instead of looking at your jewelry screen as your amulet choice window, look at it as a game menu interface where it says "rMut(on/off)". There was this game i played long time ago which i cant remember for sure which one it was(i think there are a ton of old games with that interface issue), where you can change the gameplay options DURING the gameplay.

If you want malmutate to check MR, fine, i can understand that, but i find very problematic when a game that is all about randomness throw IMMUNITIES for the player to easily swap through.

Well a couple things, 1. it wasn't outright immunity. It is a chance of resisting, which is the same thing that MR ultimately does. 2. it isn't a simple on off switch (if it was, you would turn it on and never turn it off), it's a radio button where you have several things to choose among, some of which have a drawback for turning off but give you better long term benefits. That is the very definition of slot based equipment generally, so unless you are arguing against the concept generally, this does not seem to support your point.

That's all fairly subtle in terms of what kind of difference it makes regarding your conclusions but if you want to make points based on hyperbole instead of reality it makes your actual conclusions seem weak and irrelevant even if they are perfectly valid.

[dynast]

Ok, its not immunity, then why are we bitching about it so much? Because it works like that? You dont go "well, a neqoxec showed up, im not gonna wear rMut because it might not work", do you?

Its a radio button in the sense that instead of adjusting it to find music you are adjusting it to avoid music, because the music in the radio sucks or you just dont want to listen to it.

[Siegurt]

Ok, its not immunity, then why are we bitching about it so much? Because it works like that? You dont go "well, a neqoxec showed up, im not gonna wear rMut because it might not work", do you?

Its a radio button in the sense that instead of adjusting it to find music you are adjusting it to avoid music, because the music in the radio sucks or you just dont want to listen to it.

"Radio button" is the generic computing term for the type of interface where you have to pick one of a series of choices (originally named after the radio preset buttons, because you can only listen to one at a time), I forget sometimes that it might not make any sense outside of that context.

Personally, I am not opposed to the removal of rMut but I am also not swayed in favor of it by any of the arguments made so far. Also no one I is obliged to sway me personally in either direction. If anything I am just trying to keep the arguments honest.

[dynast]

I got what you meant, maybe you didnt get my radio analogy right, no matter, i dont have much else to add and im just repeating myself.

[floatRand]

So far I have played few games of 0.18, one being 15 runer with DsMo of Qazlal. 0.17/0.18 is ending up as my least favourite version of Crawl, so far - although not only because of the amulet changes ( I miss flight and control teleport ).

They were binary sort of deal mostly, but I felt that they had their place, sort of situational equipment, which is a part of playing roguelikes - prepared for various threats, by swapping gear, using items, prioritizing kills, abusing LoS, tricks, etc.
rMut never really shut down the threat of mutators, since mutation trickled through the amulet anyway, which made them still rather high-priority targets since wrong mutation could complicate play a lot. Not being able to read blink scrolls in timely manner while being molested by hordes of demons is too familiar situation.
The new amulets are nice, but I figure they could have been added to add variety to base amulets. The choices were pretty obvious before. With introduction of new amulets, it might be not so!
Increase variety of threats in branches, so players have to decide which threats they want protection from and which one they will deal quickly.

It wouldn't be so annoying if the rMut amulets weren't about the only thing to protect from mutations outside of Zin, Lajatang of Order or Hat of the 15 runes. And lot of runs don't get courtesy of those. The potions of cure mutation are slightly more common, but are not enough to offset the increased number of mutations.
Last run I only got 2 pots, which got used before I entered Mnoleg's funhouse. I started to miss them really quickly, especially when my 3 wands of heal wounds + nice stack of potions were made completely useless.

So in conclusion, I am more frustrated by new changes than relieved that "oh wow I can't don't need to carry rMut amulet with me". There is air of having less choice in matter. Mummies are strongly inclined to worship Ashenzari and amulet of reflection is so amazing that there's no point in wearing much else.

[Shard1697]

i do zot without rF all the time

And nearly no one else who plays the game does this, because it is terrifyingly dangerous.

[Kaelii]

I have a proposal for an amulet that might address some complaints from the community.

Amulet of Purified Identity: Completely suppresses all (or maybe just bad?) non-racial mutations, prevents/resists banishment, blinking, paralysis, unwilling Berserk, confusion while equipped. Unequipping confuses the player, mutates berserkitis 3 and teleportitis 3 (maybe something else too? Additional bad muts if you already have?), and (possibly) banishes the player. Alternatively, equipping could permanently lock the amulet slot, only allowing swaps to different Amulets of Purified Identity (such as a randart one).

Why I propose it: it should do basically everything the player wanted an amulet of rMut, amulet of Clarity, or amulet of Stasis for, while not being 3 distinct amulets and has far less of major downside caused by stasis. Combining the three amulets to provide specialized 'resistances' is closer to the power of Faith/Guardian Spirit/Reflection/Rage/etc.

Why I think even if it IS accepted it shouldn't be put in right away, if at all: reducing the sources of rMut gives an excellent time to examine how the mutation system is doing as the game has developed, especially concerning malmutators. Extended is supposed to be a feasible goal for any character played well enough (I think, but if a Dev wants to say otherwise go for it), and I feel like people have been claiming directly or indirectly that malmutators make extended require an equipment check that isn't "Is my equipment good/strong enough" but "Did I find X, Y, Z special effects?".
I think that all three of rMut, Clarity, and Stasis simply existing on semi-common drops makes the game worse, by turning potentially interesting enemies into uninteresting often popcorn tier enemies that grant far too easy experience to a player that happens to have the corresponding equipment. Unlike MR, there is only vague expectations of how much of these resists a player should have at certain stages of advancement outside of extended/ultra extended where a player is expected to have basically everything, and super early where they can generally be expected to have none.

[dynast]

i do zot without rF all the time

And nearly no one else who plays the game does this, because it is terrifyingly dangerous.

Its not. Playing squishy species is dangerous on its own, but playing a normal species and not using a dagger is enough to kill oofes without rf.

[Sar]

like, I don't even know anything anymore

[Sprucery]

Of course OoFs can be killed without rF, but it is definitely dangerous (speed 15 monster with 3d40 and 3d43 fire attacks). So if rF is available, you want to have it.

I believe I have sometimes killed OoFs without getting a single fire bolt or fireball in the face (throwing, allies, portal projectile, antimagic weapons all help). But if I don't have other rF sources, I quaff !resistance before fighting an OoF.

[HardboiledGargoyle]

Yes, definitely. The two goals are at odds. The reason I don't mind changing amulets as I have while preferring that rings be the less-swappable slot is that I think the latter is much harder to change without fundamentally changing the game, and thus I don't expect it to happen soon (or, if I'm being honest, ever).

These words (which you later repeat) suggest Crawl is a house of cards that would collapse if you perturbed rings.

This isn't true in the slightest bit unless the jewellery system is really well thought out, and that's giving it way too much credit. What duvessa said would be an improvement even if the item generation weights and stuff were slapped on rather haphazardly.

Like, why should making amulets less swappable be acceptable, but not making rings less swappable, I don't even

Among "rule-setting objects" there's Faith and really nothing else, as guardian spirit and gourmand are easy to remove and swapping to them isn't urgent if you had to swap from them.

It doesn't even look hard technically to swap some rings and amulets, though less fun to code I guess, seeing how regen was moved from rings to amulets:

http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a= ... 24b81b1e76

[Chicken]

I think there has been way too much deletionism around here lately. Where is the strategy in a game where you can't keep a bunch of alts around for various circumstances? If you delete rMut, then for most characters you might as well delete Slime branch while you're at it -- you've already half deleted Orc branch, so I suppose that would only be fair. Though my mummy seems to be avoiding most ill effects from malmutators recently without it... maybe you better delete them. Maybe you could just make it a Go board while you're at it.

My recollection from playing the game back around 2000 was that there were a lot more mechanics - you had to worry what potions not to carry because they'd get frozen, vs. when you needed them, what scrolls to carry in case they got fried, even artifact armor got disintegrated now and then as I recall. Obviously, that kind of potential for damage would do much to encourage players to keep a tighter inventory, but ... what exactly is the fun increment of having a small inventory anyway? I think every player by inclination wants to carry around a veritable town in his backpack and nearly all video games try to mostly humor that impulse.

[dpeg]

Chicken: Please stop regurgitating that trope. It's wrong (there is more content now, and the removed mechanics did not add anything substantial), it's trivial (makes sense at first glance, collapse upon closer inspection), and it will not change current development on the slightest. If you really believe what you say, play and/or maintain the DCSS 2000 version.

[Sprucery]

even artifact armor got disintegrated now and then as I recall

I think you recall incorrectly.

[archaeo]

I'm going to go ahead and lock this thread, guys. I'm sure we're not done discussing amulets, the ramifications of the new changes, or other issues regarding the problems (or non-problems) with swappable equipment. But this thread has gotten way off track, and I suspect any new discussion will benefit from just starting fresh.