Unannounced Portals

[XuaXua]

I've always speculated that this would happen and finally it happened to me.

I got to Lair:4 and was shafted to Lair:7.
Finally made my way back up to Lair:4, exploring each level just in case I accidentally timed out a portal (though I did have to run from a huge death yak pack on Lair:7.
Got to Lair:4 and there it was, the empty Spider Portal.
Not a big loss, because in general the Spider Portal sucks, but I had memphitic cloud and a +2 Leather Armor of poison resistance and Armor:4, when I was on Lair:4 earlier and now I'm disappointed I missed out on some fun.

It wasn't a deliberate portal skip, but I'd love to see portal timeout revised in some fashion.

[dpeg]

"revised in some fashion" -- thanks for the attention to detail.

One feature of timed portal vaults is that you can miss them. If you miss them, it may feel bad. Sometimes you will them.

[fnwc]

I thought portals didn't start running a timer until you had seen the edge of their entry tile(s), with the Labyrinth being the exception.

[hxy]

Isn't it on a long/short timer now?
i.e. once you get on the level, the long timer will start... the short timer only starts when you see the edge of the vault

[XuaXua]

"revised in some fashion" -- thanks for the attention to detail.

It was an open call for proposals; my apologies for the lack of detail.

Here is some detail and a proposal, maybe that will satisfy your sarcasm:

The reasons for portals being timed are twofold
1 - so a player cannot gain a crapload of experience then go back and kick the portal's ass
2 - so a player cannot go back to a stash and arm himself then go back and kick the portal's ass

If there is another reason for the portal timer that I've missed, please let me know.
From what I can tell, the overall goal of the timer is to not allow a player to prep or become too experienced for a portal.

Solution: keep portals temporary, "timed", but base the "timer" not on a factor of turns, but on a factor preparation.

Actions that count as preparation: kills (gains of experience), changes in equipment, and changes in spell knowledge.

Set a countdown with an arbitrary value for the portal, say (10 (+/-) 3) - (1 or 2 x the number of branch/dungeon levels below the current level the character has traveled).
Only start the countdown if the portal has come into view of the player (is either directly revealed, mapped, or announced to the player).
After the countdown has started,
reduce the countdown by 1 for every new kill made by the player.
reduce the countdown by 2 for every change in equipment (a drop or a pickup).
reduce the countdown by 3 for every new spell memorized.
If the player enters another branch other than the abyss, terminate the portal.
If the player enters another portal (say, he got shafted) or the abyss, pause the countdown.
For every level below the portal level the player travels, the countdown is reduced.

If the countdown hits 0 or less, the portal closes.

Making the timer for "timed" portals based on the factors that caused a timer to be placed on the portals in the first place, rather than actual "time", is the fairest solution.

[psyshvl]

The Portals are working as intended. The shafting just made things more interesting and your choices more meaningful. There's no need for a needlessly complicated change to something just because it didn't work in your favor once.

You had two choices the moment you got shafted: sprint back up to the portal, or explore the other levels cautiously. If you sprinted back up to the portal, you risked death from reckless play and 'missing out' on deeper portals (Really though? The chances of finding a 2nd portal so close to another one is ridiculously small.). If you explored the other levels cautiously, you'd be in much less danger for playing carefully and have more loot and experience, but you'd likely miss the portal.

What happened was the chance for a meaningful decision on your part: taking big risks for extra loot, or less risk for no extra loot. I have no clue what you were thinking at the time, but you chose to take the latter route and got what the RNG and your choice dictated you should receive. Modifying the timer to miraculously allow you to explore all three of the Lair levels and then dive into the portal vault would not have been interesting or meaningful. There would be no choice, just less risk on your part AND extra loot.

[Galefury]

XuaXua: You did kill lots of stuff on the way from Lair:7 back to Lair:4, and you probably found a few items. So while you had no way of knowing about the portal you did gain power since it was spawned. So why shouldn't it time out exactly? The reasons for timeout you listed still apply even without the player knowing about the portal. In this case, reason number one, "gaining a crapload of experience".

I know it feels bad to miss portals, but I think portal timeout is inherently okay. What's not okay are the effects the timeout mechanic has on optimal play and player behavior.

[Grimm]

Portals are fine the way they are. Sometimes you miss them. C'est le Crawl.

[XuaXua]

XuaXua: You did kill lots of stuff on the way from Lair:7 back to Lair:4, and you probably found a few items.

The only reason I didn't rush back to L:4 was because I thought I would have lost a deep portal on L:7.

[dpeg]

XuaXua: The two reasons you give are spot on. (There is a third, less strategical and more tactical one: choices (i.e. potential to blow resources) just to get there in time -- among unannounced portal vaults, this affects those with a nasty entry vault.)

WIth the system you propose, you could be screwed in some other way. Portal vaults can be missed, getting shafted three levels is a good step towards missing one. Just bad luck.

Re sarcasm: You have no idea how often we get "this sucks" (you're tone was appreciatedly better) or "change Foo to this; the details can be easily tweaked". If I see criticism on something that I perceive as basically working (the new timers for portal vaults are included in this set), then I want specific comments (which you gave in the reply), not general complaining.

Take it easy!

[galehar]

Isn't it on a long/short timer now?
i.e. once you get on the level, the long timer will start... the short timer only starts when you see the edge of the vault

This isn't true. It's been said here and there that the short timer starts as soon as you see a cell from the entry vault, but it isn't true. In fact, the short timer just starts when you see the portal, that's all.

Xuaxua, the fact that you missed a portal because of some circumstances isn't a problem at all, this is perfectly fine. It's been discussed on mantis already. The real problem is that the long timer forces the player into a specific exploration behaviour, and this isn't good. To maximise your chances of loot and XP, don't stair dip and fully explore a level before moving on. We don't want that, players should be able to explore the dungeon in any way without having to suffer that kind of penalty.

To fix that, I suggest we remove the long timer of unannounced portals and start the timer with a thematic message when the entry vaults is seen (or is close by).

I'm not sure how to handle mapped portals. It's probably better to not do anything about it, but it gives a slight edge to spoiled players (knowing entry vault layouts) with passive mapping. It's probably better than penalising all players with passive mapping by unexpectedly triggering a timer if they stair dip.

[XuaXua]

It's been discussed on mantis already.

I searched all over the place for that and could not find it. I knew there was a discussion somewhere. This is probably a better place for it though.

[galehar]

I searched all over the place for that and could not find it.

I searched for "portal" on mantis. It's the 6th result.

[XuaXua]

Your mantis-fu is stronger.

Since portals are one-use only, would it be better to allow the portal to hang around, but increase the toughness of the resulting portal based on some combination of deepest level visited, experience gained / number of equipment transitions/spell memorizations since the portal level was discovered?

I guess that would put a lot of work on the portal generations themselves to add additional monsters and the calculations to track the increased changes.

[KoboldLord]

Your mantis-fu is stronger.

Since portals are one-use only, would it be better to allow the portal to hang around, but increase the toughness of the resulting portal based on some combination of deepest level visited, experience gained / number of equipment transitions/spell memorizations since the portal level was discovered?

I guess that would put a lot of work on the portal generations themselves to add additional monsters and the calculations to track the increased changes.

No, that would encourage you to put it off even more. A portal that has stronger monsters if you put it off awards more xp if you put it off. The decision would basically boil down to whenever you think an extra shot of xp and a few extra good items is likely to put you over the edge for the next area. Instead of breaching Elf carefully for loot because D and V are just a little too dangerous, you'd instead run back to the Sewer you've been allowing to ferment for the last 10 levels, so you can harvest the extra skill training and maybe even xp levels it now provides.

[XuaXua]

Your mantis-fu is stronger.

Since portals are one-use only, would it be better to allow the portal to hang around, but increase the toughness of the resulting portal based on some combination of deepest level visited, experience gained / number of equipment transitions/spell memorizations since the portal level was discovered?

I guess that would put a lot of work on the portal generations themselves to add additional monsters and the calculations to track the increased changes.

No, that would encourage you to put it off even more. A portal that has stronger monsters if you put it off awards more xp if you put it off. The decision would basically boil down to whenever you think an extra shot of xp and a few extra good items is likely to put you over the edge for the next area. Instead of breaching Elf carefully for loot because D and V are just a little too dangerous, you'd instead run back to the Sewer you've been allowing to ferment for the last 10 levels, so you can harvest the extra skill training and maybe even xp levels it now provides.

Even if it is full of Sewage Death Yaks, Crocodiles, Lich Frogs and Feculence Hellions? I'm talking exponential scaling of danger; Sewers become as dangerous as Hell Vestibule if you wait too long.

[joellercoaster]

Portals are fine the way they are. Sometimes you miss them. C'est le Crawl.

Definitely.

I like it when a developer will stand up and say, "sometimes the game will make you sad".

[Grimm]

I actually take that back a little bit, because this makes a lot of sense to me:

The real problem is that the long timer forces the player into a specific exploration behaviour, and this isn't good. To maximise your chances of loot and XP, don't stair dip and fully explore a level before moving on. We don't want that, players should be able to explore the dungeon in any way without having to suffer that kind of penalty.

To fix that, I suggest we remove the long timer of unannounced portals and start the timer with a thematic message when the entry vaults is seen (or is close by).

[Stormfox]

To fix that, I suggest we remove the long timer of unannounced portals and start the timer with a thematic message when the entry vaults is seen (or is close by).

I'm not sure how to handle mapped portals. It's probably better to not do anything about it, but it gives a slight edge to spoiled players (knowing entry vault layouts) with passive mapping. It's probably better than penalising all players with passive mapping by unexpectedly triggering a timer if they stair dip.

If it's possible, "close" should depend not just on physical proximity to the gate, but pathfinding proximity. It would be pretty easy for a map with disconnected sections to have the player end up very "close" to the portal, but completely unable to reach it without controlled teleport and a knowledge of where to jump.

[XuaXua]

To fix that, I suggest we remove the long timer of unannounced portals and start the timer with a thematic message when the entry vaults is seen (or is close by).

I'm not sure how to handle mapped portals. It's probably better to not do anything about it, but it gives a slight edge to spoiled players (knowing entry vault layouts) with passive mapping. It's probably better than penalising all players with passive mapping by unexpectedly triggering a timer if they stair dip.

If it's possible, "close" should depend not just on physical proximity to the gate, but pathfinding proximity. It would be pretty easy for a map with disconnected sections to have the player end up very "close" to the portal, but completely unable to reach it without controlled teleport and a knowledge of where to jump.

Before I truly understood portal timeouts and the three staircases, this happened to me with the sewers. I came back up to a level through new stairs and found an area of rats and some green slime floor tiles, but no drain.

[dpeg]

galehar: I am not sure how far unannounced timed portal vaults making stair-dipping less attractive actually is a problem.
Before timed vaults, you could sometimes get the hint to always stairdip when safe in spoilers. I don't think that is quite true. But I also don't think that the status quo is so bad: if you stairdip*, you might lose a portal vault (you'll definitely reduce chances to catch a potential portal vault). So don't do that mindlessly -- but if the situation on the current level is tense, then do so by all means.
It is true that the mechanic is somewhat opaque although unspoiled players can quickly pick up the message once they see familiar but closed portal vaults.

*stairdip: to enter a new level without the intention of exploring it.

[XuaXua]

*stairdip: to enter a new level without the intention of exploring it.

Before I learned about portals timing out, I used to stairdip as deep as possible just to be able to map out the dungeon below me for strategy purposes and to see how far down I could safely go.

With timed portals I feel I am forced to completely map out each level lest I lose some awesome randart that I wouldn't otherwise acquire at a later time.

I don't mind having to rush the portal. I don't mind having to get there when I know about it. I just hate missing them because I walked nearby and left due to being chased off my monsters or happened to be on a level and got shafted.

Strangely enough, I was just on a level with both the labyrinth and on my way to it, passed an ice vault. I died fighting the minotaur, so I won't know if I killed the ice vault by going into the labyrinth (which goes back to my request to pause counting portal timers if entering another portal).

[dolphin]

XuaXua makes a valid point, I think. I certainly don't stairdip early levels unless I have to, since the potential reward for a Sewer or Ossuary in XP is pretty high (and relatively safe, particularly Sewers). IIRC, I have missed an Ice Cave for another a Labyrinth, and that was kind of a bummer, and left me feeling cheated.

I understand the 'you win some/ you lose some', and 'sometimes life is unfair' dpeg is pushing for, so I wouldn't necessarily say that all portals everywhere should only have proximity-triggered timers, but I do think that some of the unfairness of losing a portal you didn't know was there could be alleviated if you did have Prox. Portals. Possibly the triggering distance could be increased if you had more hints, either visual or text-based when you entered the proximity of the portal, like a statue of a Reaper for an Ossuary or "You absentmindedly hum the TMNT theme . . ." for the Sewer.

[XuaXua]

XuaXua makes a valid point, I think. I certainly don't stairdip early levels unless I have to, since the potential reward for a Sewer or Ossuary in XP is pretty high (and relatively safe, particularly Sewers). IIRC, I have missed an Ice Cave for another a Labyrinth, and that was kind of a bummer, and left me feeling cheated.

I understand the 'you win some/ you lose some', and 'sometimes life is unfair' dpeg is pushing for, so I wouldn't necessarily say that all portals everywhere should only have proximity-triggered timers, but I do think that some of the unfairness of losing a portal you didn't know was there could be alleviated if you did have Prox. Portals. Possibly the triggering distance could be increased if you had more hints, either visual or text-based when you entered the proximity of the portal, like a statue of a Reaper for an Ossuary or "You absentmindedly hum the TMNT theme . . ." for the Sewer.

I am not a fan of the timed portals that also require you to search for secret doors on a multi-faceted surface to access them (only to find the portal has timed out because you didn't know where to search).

[galehar]

Getting 2 portals on a level and having to choose one sounds like an interesting situation. Nothing wrong here, on the contrary.

[dolphin]

You are right, having to choose between one or the other is fine, and indeed good. However, in the case I was thinking of, I didn't choose the Labyrinth over the Ice Cave. I did the Labyrinth, and later discovered the empty arch of Ice portal. Had I known of both beforehand, I would have made a choice about one or the other; that would have been interesting. Large-radius Proximity Hints and Triggers would have resolved the frustration of this particular situation, and seem like they might also resolve similar frustrations, to me.

[dpeg]

The game should definitely give an unambiguous announcement with a --more-- prompt when a short timer starts. We already have this for labyrinths and bazaars, with the only difference being that those portals' short timers start as soon as you enter the level.

I agree. There should be a level sound for every timed portal vault, with the prompt sitting in the init file.

[XuaXua]

The game should definitely give an unambiguous announcement with a --more-- prompt when a short timer starts. We already have this for labyrinths and bazaars, with the only difference being that those portals' short timers start as soon as you enter the level.

I agree. There should be a level sound for every timed portal vault, with the prompt sitting in the init file.

*goes and checks the init file to confirm any implied sarcasm*

*only finds*

  Code:

# Announcements of timed portal vaults (bazaar, labyrinths):
force_more_message = interdimensional caravan
force_more_message = distant snort


*concludes post was serious*

[XuaXua]

Getting 2 portals on a level and having to choose one sounds like an interesting situation. Nothing wrong here, on the contrary.

Doesn't mean I have to like it. Plus, I totally found that minotaur quite quickly, so I might have made it to the ice cavern. Had rC++ armor too.

[dpeg]

Just to make it clear: you'd get the level sound only when very close, of course.

[galehar]

Getting 2 portals on a level and having to choose one sounds like an interesting situation. Nothing wrong here, on the contrary.

Doesn't mean I have to like it. Plus, I totally found that minotaur quite quickly, so I might have made it to the ice cavern. Had rC++ armor too.

Well, you've made it very clear that you hate missing portals, and we've made it clear that we don't care and that we think it's fine. Let's move on. Besides, even if it's for different reasons, my proposal would actually address your problem.

[KoboldLord]

I have gotten a double portal level before, and successfully looted them both. It was a labyrinth and a spiders' nest. I read off magic mapping the moment I got the labyrinth message, and I avoided the obvious footprint of the spider vault when I was running for the more urgent portal. The long timer for the spiders' nest paused when I went into the labyrinth and left Lair, so it was still waiting when I got back. I don't think XuaXua would have gotten the ice cavern in this case, though, since he probably approached closely enough to trigger the short timer.

It was extra-satisfying looting that spiders' nest, because I knew Crawl was screwing with me but I got to keep all my stuff anyway.

[galehar]

I have gotten a double portal level before, and successfully looted them both. It was a labyrinth and a spiders' nest. I read off magic mapping the moment I got the labyrinth message, and I avoided the obvious footprint of the spider vault when I was running for the more urgent portal. The long timer for the spiders' nest paused when I went into the labyrinth and left Lair, so it was still waiting when I got back. I don't think XuaXua would have gotten the ice cavern in this case, though, since he probably approached closely enough to trigger the short timer.

It was extra-satisfying looting that spiders' nest, because I knew Crawl was screwing with me but I got to keep all my stuff anyway.

I've said it before, but since this misinformation has been widespread, I'll repeat it again. The short timer only triggers if you see the portal, not the vault. And the long timer is very long. 3000 turns +/- 10%. How do you know the long timer paused? Maybe you just finished the labyrinth in time.

[KoboldLord]

I've said it before, but since this misinformation has been widespread, I'll repeat it again. The short timer only triggers if you see the portal, not the vault. And the long timer is very long. 3000 turns +/- 10%. How do you know the long timer paused? Maybe you just finished the labyrinth in time.

What misinformation specifically are you referring to? Does the long timer not pause when you leave the relevant branch? Or did you specifically mean the distinction between approaching closely or actually seeing the portal? Henzell doesn't have any relevant data when I looked just now, so my understanding may possibly be quite a bit out of date.

[galehar]

What misinformation specifically are you referring to?

The short timer only triggers if you see the portal, not the vault.

Also, I did a test in wizmode, and the long timer doesn't pause if you go to another portal vaults. So I guess you just finished the labyrinth in less than 3000 turns.

[KoboldLord]

All right, I'll try to keep the information straight for when this comes up again. Is there a way to add this to henzell? Documentation is usually better for preventing the spread of misinformation than hunting down every last forum post.

I just had another double-portal level. Cleared an early bailey without realizing there was another portal, and then found the late ossuary before it timed out. No magic mapping this time, and the two portals were in completely disconnected stair bubbles that I fully explored one at a time. The long timer is plenty long enough, it seems.

[galehar]

Is there a way to add this to henzell?

As far as I know, the only way to edit the learndb is by using IRC commands. Would be nice to have a web interface to it too.

[Galefury]

The whole point of the learndb is immediate peer review of entries, both when edited and when read (via IRC). It is crucial that the editing person is available to comment on the changes. Phantom edits with nobody being responsible for them would screw up the whole system. This is also why you can read Henzell via private messages or via the webinterface, but not edit privately. Please lets keep it that way.

[XuaXua]

I don't think XuaXua would have gotten the ice cavern in this case, though, since he probably approached closely enough to trigger the short timer.

I did. Used mapping and had no idea it was there because it blended into the background (was a big open-space level) and fought my way through 10 white imps (with the help of a minor zombie horde) to the labyrinth.

[XuaXua]

Is there a way to add this to henzell?

As far as I know, the only way to edit the learndb is by using IRC commands. Would be nice to have a web interface to it too.

That page's info shouldn't include the period in the url.

[galehar]

Is there a way to add this to henzell?

As far as I know, the only way to edit the learndb is by using IRC commands. Would be nice to have a web interface to it too.

That page's info shouldn't include the period in the url.

I think the entries are in text. It's the browser which turns url into links and is not very smart in doing it.

[XuaXua]

As far as I know, the only way to edit the learndb is by using IRC commands. Would be nice to have a web interface to it too.

That page's info shouldn't include the period in the url.

I think the entries are in text. It's the browser which turns url into links and is not very smart in doing it.

The browser I'm using doesn't create hyperlinks from unlinked urls (the second url isn't linked).
It's the actual entry in learndb.

[Galefury]

Looks like a bug in the web interface. The actual entries are text only.