Make doing mega zigs less tedius

[WingedEspeon]

The proposal is that every time you leave a zig from floor 27, the zig portal in depths respawns. This should not significantly change the game balance because anyone who can clear a zig can easily farm pan for zig portals. This greatly reduces time spent looking for zig portals and thus tedium. This would still prevent weak characters from repatedly farming zig:1 from the zig in depths for loot and exp.

[ion_frigate]

I suggested a version of this just a few days ago actually. Personally I think a better way to prevent weak characters from farming early Zig loot is to make mega zigs a one-chance thing: the Depths portal is the only one in existence, and portals to the next Zig are only found at the bottom (and so on, for however many Zigs you can chain).

I don't see any problem with the one-chance aspect - the whole mega-zig thing is supposed to be a challenge. Without item weight or item destruction you can enter with all the consumables the dungeon has generated anyway, so there's no reason you shouldn't be able to do it all one in one go. It would prevent farming Pan or the Abyss for more, but even if anyone bothers to do that, it's not behavior worth preserving.

A big advantage of this is that it removes the last reason for Pan to be infinite, which is a good thing.

[Pollen_Golem]

It's possible to both have an infinite Pan with infinite Zigs, and have each fully cleared Zig create another Zig when you exit. That would allow players to go Zigging in Pan if they bail from the Depths Zig, but they'd only have to find one to get the opportunity of Zigging forever. This way players would not be tempted to sub-optimally skip the Depths Zig in case they wish to mega-zig at some point.

[WingedEspeon]

It's possible to both have an infinite Pan with infinite Zigs, and have each fully cleared Zig create another Zig when you exit. That would allow players to go Zigging in Pan if they bail from the Depths Zig, but they'd only have to find one to get the opportunity of Zigging forever. This way players would not be tempted to sub-optimally skip the Depths Zig in case they wish to mega-zig at some point.

That was kind of the point of this proposal. The only difference is that my proposal has the depths zig respawn if you clear a pan zig giving you time to stash your loot.

[bananaken]

I suggested a version of this just a few days ago actually. Personally I think a better way to prevent weak characters from farming early Zig loot is to make mega zigs a one-chance thing: the Depths portal is the only one in existence, and portals to the next Zig are only found at the bottom (and so on, for however many Zigs you can chain).

I don't see any problem with the one-chance aspect - the whole mega-zig thing is supposed to be a challenge. Without item weight or item destruction you can enter with all the consumables the dungeon has generated anyway, so there's no reason you shouldn't be able to do it all one in one go. It would prevent farming Pan or the Abyss for more, but even if anyone bothers to do that, it's not behavior worth preserving.

A big advantage of this is that it removes the last reason for Pan to be infinite, which is a good thing.

Stashing cool loot between complete zig runs is a minor and often unnecessary activity, but still a thing that players like to do if they're gonna clear multiple zigs. I'd rather that be preserved than scrapped.

[wheals]

I implemented something like this a while back: https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commits/zig-evokable

That version removed Zigs from Pan but it could go either way. I'll probably merge it into trunk after the tournament ends.

[Pollen_Golem]

https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commits/zig-evokable

Lair:1 is about to become the default location for mega-zigging

[archaeo]

I'm not sure I see the merit in leaving zig portals in pan with an evocable portal device or whatever. If you continue to randomly generate zigs in pan, players have a good reason not to bother with the evoker: if you're willing to pay irl time, you can keep your megazig counter low in order to avoid the higher danger of late megazigs just by leaving at zig:26 or below and moving on to the next portal.

By removing the random portals in pan, you present the player with an interesting choice: do I dip into a Zig to grab the safe loot from the first several floors, or do I wait until I'm ready to go all the way so that I have a zig portal evoker, a strong item in its own right?

[njvack]

I think having the portals still spawn in Pan is probably better than not. It's OK if people can do things like collect all the octorings without needing to be a megazig powerhouse.

I kind of feel like: if you can grind Pan or Abyss for XP and loot, grinding zigs is not worse. And I really don't think leaving those grindable places there is bad, so long as they aren't relevant for winning.

[Pollen_Golem]

If no Zigs generate in Pan, the player locks himself out of one of the post-end mini-games by doing the depths zig early. That's a choice, but is it fair to call it interesting? Right now, nothing but death blocks you from exploring any level of the game, except timed portals I guess.

if you're willing to pay irl time, you can keep your megazig counter low in order to avoid the higher danger of late megazigs just by leaving at zig:26 or below and moving on to the next portal.

yes but is that a real "problem" that should be fixed? Most often, I think, you'll see zig:26-capable chars try to clear zigs, which OP makes less tedious, and the penalty for bailing from a zig would be having to find a new portal in Pan.

[archaeo]

I kind of feel like: if you can grind Pan or Abyss for XP and loot, grinding zigs is not worse.

I guess I see it from the perspective of the old NetHack adage that pudding farming is its own punishment. I'm not sure that the benefit of allowing players a slightly faster form of scummery outweighs the ability for the game to enforce a challenging conduct on those who want to have fun grinding.

If no Zigs generate in Pan, the player locks himself out of one of the post-end mini-games by doing the depths zig early. That's a choice, but is it fair to call it interesting?

I'd call it more interesting than giving the player infinite chances to access the same minigame, especially when, in doing so, you only encourage the player to avoid the (spoilery) megazig counter. It makes that Zig portal more valuable and consequential, instead of just being a free pitstop for any character who wants to pick up a few floors of free loot, a problem that's especially pertinent now that -cTele's gone.

but is that a real "problem" that should be fixed? Most often, I think, you'll see zig:26-capable chars try to clear zigs, which OP makes less tedious, and the penalty for bailing from a zig would be having to find a new portal in Pan.

I really dislike penalties that take the form of IRL time sinks, but I'm more interested in the tension created when players who want to keep zigging are forced to make it to the 27th floor. Which is to say that maybe the "problem" isn't huge, but if you fix it while simultaneously making the choice to Zig have more importance, I dunno. I think it's good for the game.

[bananaken]

It makes that Zig portal more valuable and consequential, instead of just being a free pitstop for any character who wants to pick up a few floors of free loot, a problem that's especially pertinent now that -cTele's gone.

You could already get away with being greedy by reducing your LOS by using stuff like darkness/fog + disjunction (really good spell, btw). The only thing -cTele changed is the ability for characters without tloc spells to hoard scrolls of blinking to do the same, and I'd argue that burning through several scrolls of blinking is an appropriate cost for running into a floor you can't handle with no guarantee that you'll find what you hypothetically need.

I think having a respawning Zig portal is fine and even welcome, the only reason I avoid Megazigs is because wandering in Pandemonium sucks.

[Pollen_Golem]

I'm not sure that the benefit of allowing players a slightly faster form of scummery outweighs the ability for the game to enforce a challenging conduct on those who want to have fun grinding.

what the hell does that mean
challenging conduct = don't enter the depths zig between finding it and getting all runes? that's a lame-o conduct because there's nothing you have to go out of your way to do; it's not like "never enter lair" or "never wear jewelery". It's always a bit scary entering the depths zig because you want to do as many floors as you can without dying, and you could dive further if you power-leveled some more in depths and other areas. Or, is the challenging conduct that you have to grind the safer Pan/Abyss, rather than zigs, if you "want to have fun grinding"?

calling mega-zigging scummery is inaccurate because mega-zigging does not help your character do anything other than clear more zigs. If you can clear one zig, you can already get all runes and win easily. So it's just a minigame, really, like an arcade game mode you get after finishing the main quest.

If anything, removing the Depths zig, or putting like a 10-rune lock on the depths zig, makes more sense than removing Pan zigs.

The megazig counter is not spoilery at all except in the one condition that you play a newer version relying on your knowledge of an older version without checking the changelog, which is natural. Except that maximum zig difficulty is reached after completing 13, which is just so whatever.

you only encourage the player to avoid the (spoilery) megazig counter.

If you think the player is unduly punished for reaching zig:27, due to later zigs becoming harder, the game can offer counterincentives:
a) punish bailing before zig:27 by revoking the Zig mini-game forever (your preferred method)
b) reward reaching zig:27 by granting free access to another Zig (OP's proposal, though you're not against it either)
(neither of these counterincentives is in crawl right now, which is why you may be slightly overestimating the incentive of bailing from zig:26)

Now let's suppose you already have 15 runes; in case a), the player has no goals remaining if he bails from the zig, so it's not really an option. The currently legitimate (and often tricky) ploy of prematurely exiting the zig is devalued, so he will recklessly take stairs instead of going for the portal, every single floor, which is like consigning the player to death - not something Crawl wants to do. I thought knowing when to disengage from a fight is a key skill in playing Crawl, no?

Note also, the tedium/downtime of looking for a new zig is most welcome / least unwelcome when you have to make a disgraceful escape from a turbo zig floor that is kicking your ass.

[chequers]

Is it really a thing that people want to complete multiple zigs but not increment the megazig counter?

[wheals]

There has to be a compromise between "one zig entrance spawned per game" and "infinite zig entrances, requiring you to scum Pan levels to get to the next" that lets you dip into the Depths zig without losing the chance for the megazig minigame. One possibility would be placing an entrance or figurine in Tomb:3/one of the Hells:7.

[archaeo]

Is it really a thing that people want to complete multiple zigs but not increment the megazig counter?

I've watched a few players do this. I also see many players just dip into every Zig they come across (which, if players see an average of 30 Pan floors, is 3 Zigs while fetching the runes) only to bail before floor 12 or so.

I suppose you could alternately just increment the megazig counter whenever a player exits a Zig at all?

There has to be a compromise between "one zig entrance spawned per game" and "infinite zig entrances, requiring you to scum Pan levels to get to the next" that lets you dip into the Depths zig without losing the chance for the megazig minigame. One possibility would be placing an entrance or figurine in Tomb:3/one of the Hells:7.

This seems like a reasonable compromise, but it seems like it's a compromise position between "archaeo's unpopular opinion" and "what everybody else thinks."

[chequers]

You could change the megazig counter to increment every time the player visits 27 zig floors, even if they're spread across multiple zigs.

[Pollen_Golem]

which, if players see an average of 30 Pan floors, is 3 Zigs while fetching the runes

That's if you clear floors completely. If you take the first gate you see, which is done often if not usually, you will very rarely see 3 zigs by the time you find all 5 pan runes.

[The Ferret]

Is it really a thing that people want to complete multiple zigs but not increment the megazig counter?

I've watched a few players do this. I also see many players just dip into every Zig they come across (which, if players see an average of 30 Pan floors, is 3 Zigs while fetching the runes) only to bail before floor 12 or so.

why is this bad?

I enjoy dipping into the Depths zig early. It's a different sort of challenge that offers unique dangers and rewards.

------------

The absolute simplest solution, one that doesn't require extra items or reworking the structure of the game one single bit:

When you exit a Zig:27: "A portal to a new ziggurat assembles itself in front of you!"

Replace the old zig entrance with a fresh one.

Mega-ziggers can mega-zig to their hearts' content; ordinary players can continue to dip into zigs early if they choose; everyone is very happy and nobody is sad.

[Pollen_Golem]

extra items or reworking the structure of the game

it's apparently not that hard - wheals wrote the code for this over a year ago

[The Ferret]

extra items or reworking the structure of the game

it's apparently not that hard - wheals wrote the code for this over a year ago

Right, but my precious item slots!

Also he wants to take out Pan zig portals, which makes me very sad.

[WingedEspeon]

I still prefere making the depth zig respawn to figurines of ziggurats and making the zig you just cleared respawn because it gives you time to stash your loot (like a figuring of a zigurate does) and it also prevents you from abusing a figurine of a ziggurat as an escape item (because zig:1 is often not that dangerous.) Figurines also seems too nethacky to me.

[archaeo]

Looks like zig figurines are in. They appear on Zig:27 and, currently, Tomb:3. Zig portals have been removed from Pan.

Thanks, wheals!

[Bart]

I don't get it. Why do Zig portals get removed from Pan? I understand that searching for zig entrance could be annoying, but finding one by accident in Pan was a nice thing. Can't we have zigurines both on zig:27 and randomly in Pan? I can't see what's the benefit from forcing to finish a Zig in order to enter another one. Must there be only one proper way to play crawl?

[archaeo]

From reading ##crawl-dev, an ancillary benefit of removing Zigs from Pan is that it makes for one less reason to keep Pan infinite.

But more to your point, Bart, if you retain infinite Zig portals in an infinite Pan, then the only reason to use a Zig Figurine would be as an escape item. It would be optimal to just grab the Tomb:3 zigurine and then continue scumming Zig:1-26, keeping the megazig counter low.

[Pollen_Golem]

if you retain infinite Zig portals in an infinite Pan, then the only reason to use a Zig Figurine would be as an escape item. It would be optimal to just grab the Tomb:3 zigurine and then continue scumming Zig:1-26, keeping the megazig counter low.

no because (at least without a Tomb:3 Zigurine) if you have a Zigurine, then you have done 27 levels of a zig, in which case you would not have trouble anywhere... except another zig. And I would be surprised if Zigurines could be evoked from within a ziggurat. It is only because of the Tomb:3 Zigurine that it can be used as an escape item

But yeah, if you believe megazig zigscumming is unambiguously superior to non-megazig zigscumming, you remove Pan zigs. Players can just scum Abyss:5 between zigs.

[archaeo]

And I would be surprised if Zigurines could be evoked from within a ziggurat.

Yep, they can't be used inside Zigs.

  Code:

+        if (is_level_on_stack(level_id(BRANCH_ZIGGURAT, lev))
+            || you.where_are_you == BRANCH_ZIGGURAT)
+        {
+            mpr("Finish your current ziggurat first!");
+            return false;

That wouldn't necessarily stop players from keeping it as an escape item; indeed, if you're going for 15 runes, the existence of the Zigurine on Tomb:3 is a good argument for doing Tomb earlier. Maybe it should be guaranteed, but randomly placed in Tomb:3 or one of the Hell ends, if this is considered a problem.

[Bart]

if you retain infinite Zig portals in an infinite Pan, then the only reason to use a Zig Figurine would be as an escape item. It would be optimal to just grab the Tomb:3 zigurine and then continue scumming Zig:1-26

It is still possible to keep Zigurine as an escape item as long as one doesn't want to enter a Zig. Possible solution: a Zig entry appears 10 turns after evoking a Zigurine; Zigurines (and thus new Zigs) do not spawn until you use your current one.

an ancillary benefit of removing Zigs from Pan is that it makes for one less reason to keep Pan infinite

I see a strong urge to keep everyone playing the game "as intended". I have spent in Pan more time than necessary maybe three times in my career, but these were enjoyable times. Once in a while I enter two or three ziggurats in one game and leave them around level 10-14, which is also a nice experience. If I leave zig at lvl 20 because it was too hard, it will be a huge disappointment that the Zig game is completely over. Building a Zig-ready character is a big time investment. I hope that people responsible for limiting my options are right about what should be fun and what is not, because I do not want to play Dungeon Crawl: Limited.

[ontoclasm]

You can make that argument about literally any change made to literally anything. What if I loved nausea and playing the nausea mini-game was enjoyable to me? How dare they tell me how to play Crawl?

[edgefigaro]

Proposal: Random Pan Zig Portals still spawn, but are gated for players with 10 or 12 or 15 runes.
It lets players dip the depths zig (which is nice). It lets players keep zigging after they have cleared most or all of extended. It solves the zig dipping problem. I like gating at a number lower than 15.

I've been working on zig chars recently, and I am currently going to run on 0.17 instead of trunk because of these changes. I do like the zig fig on zig27 thing, but I want to be able to bail out of a zig and still play the zig game on the character instead of thinking "well, this game is over."

The last few zigbuster chars I have made haven't made it all the way through their first zig, so I'm still learning. No random pan portals means I don't want to start a lvl 1 char and build him up as a zigbuster. Too much time goes into these characters.

Maybe if I was already great at the zig minigame and didn't need the practice and learning these changes wouldn't bother me, but too much effort goes into making experimental zigbusters.

[Pollen_Golem]

You can make that argument about literally any change made to literally anything. What if I loved nausea and playing the nausea mini-game was enjoyable to me? How dare they tell me how to play Crawl?

This would be an apt comparison if nausea was optional, beloved by a lot of people, and really only available after you have the orb of zot pretty much under your palm.

[bananaken]

Not really related, but while I'm glad that Zig figures were implemented, the thread title's typo still haunts me

[Bart]

You can make that argument about literally any change made to literally anything. What if I loved nausea and playing the nausea mini-game was enjoyable to me? How dare they tell me how to play Crawl?

Wow, the level of your argumentation isn't very encouraging to discussion, but in hope your intentions were pure, I'll tell you why - because your nausea mini-game did harm fun of other players and because nausea didn't in any way expand the way how your character could be built and where he could go.

I'm at least happy that you see how my argument can be used in so many places - namely, everywhere where developers decide to remove a part of design which could have been memorable and exciting for some of players while it wasn't harmful for the rest. Think of it - you can remove any amount of features in hope that the players will focus on remaining ones. You can also lose players who do not find fun anymore in what was left.

[archaeo]

I'm at least happy that you see how my argument can be used in so many places - namely, everywhere where developers decide to remove a part of design which could have been memorable and exciting for some of players while it wasn't harmful for the rest. Think of it - you can remove any amount of features in hope that the players will focus on remaining ones. You can also lose players who do not find fun anymore in what was left.

The issue is that reasonable people can reasonably disagree about what features are "memorable and exciting," as well as many other aspects of the game's design. In my view, limiting infinite Zigs to those who can continue to reach the 27th floor makes something that was previously banal and infinite into something special and finite; it makes those Zig chances meaningful, whereas before you could spend your IRL time to scum Pan. But, and this is important, I don't think my view is objective in any way. Game design is an art, not a science.

I'm pretty sure that by any metric, Crawl's player base has grown version after version, and if the game could survive the tumult following MD removal, it'll be able to handle Zigurines. That's not to say we should be uncritical -- I'm still hoping that rune lock gets removed, after all, and food too -- but I don't think there's any evidence that feature removal is outpacing feature addition. I've got to run, so pretend this is where I link to a pert duvessa post where he points out how more things get added than removed, etc. There's a meme that the devs are going to streamline the game to the point where it's just a roguelike simulator, but I don't think it's true.

[WingedEspeon]

I strongly disagree with limiting infinite zigs to people who clear the 27th floor, because you can still scum pan for randarts/scroll of acquirement. This means that potential mega-ziggers may still wander around pan looking to improve their gear set stead of spending their time in zigs. A 15 rune lock on extra zigs generating in pan could easily prevent character focused on getting the orb from scumming zigs.

Alternatively, just give anyone with 15 runes access to unlimited zigs. This still isn't abusable by people actually trying to win, and lets mega ziggers clear zigs to thier hearts content. Give a reward item to players who get to floor 27 of the hardest zig without bailing from a single zig, to make that conduct more exciting.

[Rast]

It would be optimal to just grab the Tomb:3 zigurine and then continue scumming Zig:1-26, keeping the megazig counter low.

No, it would be optimal to just win the game already.

FR invoke the Orb of Zot to generate a zig portal. Unlimited uses, but only works once per floor.

[edgefigaro]

15 runes makes the zig in depths permanently open.

[Pollen_Golem]

I strongly disagree with limiting infinite zigs to people who clear the 27th floor, because you can still scum pan for randarts/scroll of acquirement. This means that potential mega-ziggers may still wander around pan looking to improve their gear set stead of spending their time in zigs. A 15 rune lock on extra zigs generating in pan could easily prevent character focused on getting the orb from scumming zigs.

Yeah, to make it really work you'd need to remove item generation from the abyss, and either remove item generation from Pan or make it finite like a multiple-level volcano.

[dpeg]

When I read this, several years after I introduced ziggurats, I do wonder: The original idea was to have an extra challenge that plays differently than the other unlimited areas. Moreover, it should also provide a chance for some additional loot for not-so-strong characters (say 3-runers), all of this with permanent gambling whether one more level will be okay.

Three things happened: (1) Players were stronger than ziggurats, so levels couldn't go on infinitely, as originally planned. (2) Ziggurats became guaranteed, which has drawbacks and advantages, but that's an inevitable trend with all features intended as random. (3) Mega-ziggurats were invented to bring back the challenge (I think that was a great idea).

I didn't have anything to do with the figurines, but I think that's another good move: I don't see any point in players attempting ziggurat after ziggurat, abandoning an attempt when things get hairy and looking for the next one. (I am not denying that this is actually a lot of fun to some, but that doesn't mean we have to do it if we consider it unfun. The presence of other grindable areas does not force our hand -- this is not a court case.)

Actually, I think that having the guaranteed Depths ziggurat and the guaranteed figurine is very kind -- in my opinion, the Depths ziggurat would suffice (with figurines at Zig:27).


To add some content: I am still in search for someone lua-capable to help me finish a rare, special Ziggurat level. (It's about a small arena, pitting the player against one or a few Pan lords, depending on depth; surrounded by unbreakable glass, with imps on the outside taunting the player. Contact me over email or on ##crawl-dev if you are interested or curious.)
Think of it as the Yiuf extra-hammer level among Ziggurat storeys.

[Sar]

dpeg, I... I don't know how to tell you but...

they removed hammers

[Pollen_Golem]

Actually, I think that having the guaranteed Depths ziggurat and the guaranteed figurine is very kind -- in my opinion, the Depths ziggurat would suffice (with figurines at Zig:27).

There is more than one figurine at Zig:27? That changes everything!

[dpeg]

dpeg, I... I don't know how to tell you but... they removed hammers

It's a joke reply, and this is still GDD, but whatever: to a new player, it doesn't matter what kind of crappy item Yiuf hoards. There's a reddit thread where someone (obviously new) shows the same reaction to Yiuf mega club than ever.

Bottom line: I don't think that any flavour was lost. Nostalgia is never a good advisor.

[Sar]

I've seen people interpreting Yuif's hammers as "aw, the old guy is repairing his hut" with hammer overload vault being "he went too far". Maces are just maces and aren't as funny, just a random weapon type.

[ololoev]

if you're willing to pay irl time, you can keep your megazig counter low in order to avoid the higher danger of late megazigs just by leaving at zig:26 or below and moving on to the next portal.

When I tried to do megazig it was not fun to just move to another portal. At first it was like 'ololo I burn 15 ?mmap and find one!', then you start to run out of ?mmap scrolls, dowsing cards, then you deck out your alchemists, elixirs and tombs just to get a few more dowsings and then you desperately stumble in pan to find one more portal.
I dont think that removing not-that-grindy things is a good idea (it was me who was whining about getting trovel and experience back to wonders deck) but for zigs infinite portals can't bo compared to a strategical choice that is offered by a limited access to zigs.

[NessOnett]

I'm sorry if this is a bit off topic, but can I ask a question about the zig figurines. I see that it being referred to as an "evokable" item. Why? This seems like an odd thing to evoke. And I've seen several allusions here that upon acquiring one, they could subsequently abandon zigs they found troublesome and simply evoke an entrance to a new one. This obviously poses a lot of problems as someone could scum low level zigs easily. Now perhaps I'm mis-interpreting(I don't play on the trunk so haven't experienced it myself), but instead of an evokable shouldn't it be a consumable? One generates on every zig:27(meaning you have incremented the megazig counter). And upon using it you get put into a new zig:1. You can use it after you drop off items in your stash for the people worried about that. And you can't scum it because you need to clear every new zig you go into to perpetuate the chain.

The second obvious thing I see is people claiming the zig figurine would be a useful escape tool. Isn't this something else that could be easily remedied if that were not its intent? We have way in the game for actions(such as activating a consumable) to take more than a single "turn." It could take a significant amount of time, and therefore not be viable as an escape. It could be coded so that being attacked interrupts it in the same way as happens when trying to memorize a spell. This doesn't seem like that complicated an issue to me.

But to throw my 2c at the "scumming pan" part. Isn't pan already far more dangerous than Zot:5? So doesn't that make the argument of scumming pan for zigs to make getting the orb easier kind of a moot point? Just seems like an odd angle to me.

(As per the primary discussion, mark me down in the wanting to keep infinite spawning Zigs in Pan. They are one of my favorite things in the extended endgame as someone who does not build super optimized characters for mega-zigging. And I would hate to see them removed. Just want to be clear about my biases)

[ydeve]

I'm sorry if this is a bit off topic, but can I ask a question about the zig figurines. I see that it being referred to as an "evokable" item. Why? This seems like an odd thing to evoke. And I've seen several allusions here that upon acquiring one, they could subsequently abandon zigs they found troublesome and simply evoke an entrance to a new one. This obviously poses a lot of problems as someone could scum low level zigs easily. Now perhaps I'm mis-interpreting(I don't play on the trunk so haven't experienced it myself), but instead of an evokable shouldn't it be a consumable?

It would be a one-time use evocable, like phantom mirror, so you couldn't use it over and over.

[Sprucery]

So how does Evocations skill affect the outcome of evoking a Zig figurine?

[Pollen_Golem]

In no way except that sacrificing artifice locks you out of the megazigging game. BOOOOOO!

[Sprucery]

Well, it shouldn't probably be an evokable then I guess.

[NessOnett]

It would be a one-time use evocable, like phantom mirror, so you couldn't use it over and over.

That was what I thought initially, but was not the sense I got from reading the comments(as I said, I haven't used it first hand). In either case, it still has a few other niche problems, as was already mentioned with Ru.