Remove Abandoned Shops

[daggaz]

Remove abandoned shops from the game, such that the only way to generate one is by buying the entire inventory in a shop. These things serve absolutely no purpose other than to frustrate or disappoint the player, which only makes the game less fun without bringing anything of value. They are literally a place marker that says "you almost got a shop to load here, but instead you got shafted by the RNG and now it's going to laugh in your face about it". It is bad enough to find one on a random spot in depths or something, but they can actually screw you over if they replace one of the "guaranteed" Orc shops. In a worst case example, I once risked life and limb to get to a bazaar portal, only to find 3 of the shops inside were abandoned and the last one sold food. Wow. Such fun.

As an aside, also reduce the occurrence of food shops. Seriously. We are swimming in rations already.

[byrel]

I disagree about the foodshops... I think they're about right. And abandoned shops should still be usable for flavor (abyss and vaults.)

We could really do with removing portal mimics though. I find them incredibly unfun. I mean, I like swamp, etc. mimics and rune mimics, because they're simply pretending to be something that is elsewhere. The disappointment of a wizlab portal mimic though...

Maybe make portal mimics spawn in addition to the normal one? So you have two portal vaults generated and it's interesting risk/reward.

[Zin]

byrel: I like that idea!

I don't mind portal vault mimics either, but I can see how it's frustrating. Perhaps tone them down by replacing 3/4 with the double entry you suggested? For this to work, the fake one should be announced and the real one only once the mimic has vanished. Drawback: puts even more emphasis on ?mapping such levels.

[byrel]

Um. A crawl god likes my idea. I'm not sure how to feel about that... I mean you sponsor mass-murder and excuse it by requiring the mass murderers to not eat the corpses of the people they kill? Non-cannibalism excuses murder?

[daggaz]

I disagree about the foodshops... I think they're about right.

What in the world are you doing wrong that you actually need to buy food, ever, or do you maybe only play MiFE of Gozag? Serious question here.

And abandoned shops should still be usable for flavor (abyss and vaults.).

I had thought to include that point in the OP and I suppose I should have, sorry. Yeah. There is some flavor for the abyss but then I always just asked myself, why the fuck was there ever a shop here in the first place? I guess the abyss spreads into real parts of the world and consumes them? Ok. In the vaults I just think "oh great, another shop I could have used but now cant" since the flavor of the vaults is you know, vaults, not some dangerous spreading chaos. It's also a bit random, ok here is an abandoned shop. This place must be dangerous (just like every other place in crawl). Would work better with more cohesion, like the miniature orc/gnoll villages only now full of undead and with an abandoned shop or two. But all we get is random abandoned shops replacing random (or not random) working shops. Yay.

At any rate, the flavor value seems minimal in comparison to the frustration and fun-killing factor they do bring.

I also agree big time about the mimic-portal point. Same exact problem.

[byrel]

I play a lot of gozag.

And when I said vaults, I meant in the 'pre-defined content' sense, not the branch.

[edgefigaro]

I just ran out of food on a SpSk. Dove zot and won, but had no edible food anywhere, either on the floor, inventory. I bought out 2 food shops to do so.

[Pollen_Golem]

"oh great, another shop I could have used but now cant"

I never feel like this because shops often have nothing good in them so I don't get excited until after seeing their inventory. It's not like seeing an early demon weapon or PDA and having it disappear in a puff of smoke.

[daggaz]

Shops being full of crap aside, I can safely say that the vast majority of my games include making use of at least one shop and that in most of my games, shops have a significant impact. Plus I just love opening that box you know? You have to open it, you have to know what's inside.

[Lasty]

If I told you that abandoned shops are generated independently from active shops, would it change how you feel about the feature? If so, I recommend that you believe it, even if it isn't true.

[duvessa]

If I told you that abandoned shops are generated independently from active shops, would it change how you feel about the feature? If so, I recommend that you believe it, even if it isn't true.

That might be believable if vaults didn't exist in the game. But whoops, turns out they do.

I don't understand how putting an abandoned shop on a square is preferable to putting an empty floor space there. Seeing an abandoned shop means that a square...doesn't have a trap on it. Wow, what a useful dungeon feature. At least empty arches can be used with LRD.

[Lasty]

I see no problem with flavor tiles. The fact that it means there's no trap is a problem with traps, not with abandoned shops.

[Sprucery]

FR: shop traps!

[tedric]

they could take half your gold and scatter it to random tiles across your LOS, like in sonic! with noise equivalent to shield of the gong, of course.

[daggaz]

If I told you that abandoned shops are generated independently from active shops, would it change how you feel about the feature? If so, I recommend that you believe it, even if it isn't true.

So if one were to assume that statement was true, then what you are saying is the only way to avoid being let down by empty shops is through very spoilery knowledge about the game's inner workings that one can only get by diving the code? Got any more good reasons this feature should be pulled?

Of course, it's not true. Which begs the question of why would you possibly make that argument? "Oh hey this is having a bad effect on you, but if you just lie to yourself about it then everything will be ok even tho the bad effect is still happening" is literally what you are suggesting here.

I see no problem with flavor tiles. The fact that it means there's no trap is a problem with traps, not with abandoned shops.

This being GDD and all, would you care to, I dont know....actually explain your reasoning? I outlined a definite reason that flavor tiles are a problem with respect to shops, after all. It's right there in the OP.

[RBrandon]

I think that the example in the OP of bazaar shops being replaced is particularly poignant. If it is desirable to reduce the number of shops generated wouldn't the best way to do that be to... reduce the number of shops generated?

[Pollen_Golem]

They are literally a place marker that says "you almost got a shop to load here, but instead you got shafted by the RNG and now it's going to laugh in your face about it".

And that's a bad thing now?

Mild disappointments like this can be thrilling, and I think many other players like it too. What's DCSS all about anyway?

[ololoev]

FR: shop traps!

You enter it and get abyssed!

[daggaz]

And that's a bad thing now? Mild disappointments like this can be thrilling, and I think many other players like it too.

I would think there are enough mild disappointments already, given that 98% of shop inventory is crap that you can't/won't use anyhow. But it's nice to have a chance to find out, thats where the thrill you are talking about comes from in the case of shops. With artefacts, you have a similar mechanic: shiny white ring lying on the ground, rush over to find out what it is, oooh ooh...oh its a ring of -cast -tele *rage -rF +whydidIgenerateinthefirstplace? But for a moment, you thought you might have had something, the chance was there. There is no such chance with the abandoned shop. You see it, you immediately know you rolled 00 on the shop chart. Great.

What's DCSS all about anyway?

Legend has it that there is a great and useless orb in the bottom of the Dungeon, and if you are strong enough to return to the surface with it, the game ends abruptly.

FR: shop traps!

You enter it and get abyssed!

Other than it involving the abyss, which is quite possibly the worst thing in this game, that idea is at least interesting. You are still removing a shop, but now the player is affected in an active way, and the risk creates a choice: do I enter the shop for a possible reward, am I strong enough to survive if it is a trap? Not saying I would vote for that, but at least the feature adds something like this.

[Quazifuji]

I think that the example in the OP of bazaar shops being replaced is particularly poignant. If it is desirable to reduce the number of shops generated wouldn't the best way to do that be to... reduce the number of shops generated?

Agreed. Same for Orc (does that actually happen? I've definitely seen abandoned shops on Orc 4, but I don't know if I've ever gotten fewer than 4 non-abandoned shops there).

Mild disappointments like this can be thrilling

I feel like as a rule, neither the word "mild" nor the word "disappointment" should be used with "thrilling".

What's DCSS all about anyway?

Personally, I play it to have fun, and for the sense of accomplishment at overcoming the challenge the game provides.

I find disappointment to be not particularly fun, and abandoned shops have no effect on the game's challenge or the sense of accomplishment overcoming that challenge provides.

[daggaz]

Same for Orc (does that actually happen? I've definitely seen abandoned shops on Orc 4, but I don't know if I've ever gotten fewer than 4 non-abandoned shops there).

I'm actually not 100% sure. I feel like I have seen it before, but I could easily be mistaken. At any rate, abandoned shops DO replace guaranteed shops in bazaars as well as random shops in the dungeon proper, so I made the thread.

[Quazifuji]

I'm actually not 100% sure. I feel like I have seen it before, but I could easily be mistaken. At any rate, abandoned shops DO replace guaranteed shops in bazaars as well as random shops in the dungeon proper, so I made the thread.

Well, technically they're not guaranteed shops if they have a chance of being replaced by an abandoned one.

[nago]

I'm pretty sure shops in orc 4 can be mimic too.
Frustrating as much as portal mimic

[jejorda2]

Improved shop mimics could be portals to a 9x9 room where you are surrounded by the dangerous creatures that forced the shopkeeper to abandon the shop. Or 2x1. There could be variation. Kind of like a labyrinth without the maze. And maybe without the loot. Or the announcement.

[Sphara]

Loitering on a store porch protects me from water nymphs. So i don't mind if the whole goddamn Shoals turned out to be one dead mall.

Otherwise I could not care less if they exist or not.

[byrel]

A lot of things that aren't great design when randomly generated work quite well in vaults, because there's human attention to (nominally) ensure that the design issues with that bit of nice flavor are minimized or irrelevant. In the case of abandoned shops, imagine a vault like the overgrown yuif vault (snakes, scorpions, etc.) with an abandoned shop at the end. That works pretty well; thematically it makes sense, it won't cause a big uncompensated feeling of loss (you got the XP of the monsters, and you'll know about it next time), and it can be designed such that the lack of traps on that square is rather unabusable (barring an OoD water nymph shaped shifter or some such marginal case.)

[Lasty]

They are literally a place marker that says "you almost got a shop to load here, but instead you got shafted by the RNG and now it's going to laugh in your face about it" [...]
In the vaults I just think "oh great, another shop I could have used but now cant" [...]
But for a moment, you thought you might have had something, the chance was there. There is no such chance with the abandoned shop. You see it, you immediately know you rolled 00 on the shop chart.[...]
So if one were to assume that statement was true, then what you are saying is the only way to avoid being let down by empty shops is through very spoilery knowledge about the game's inner workings that one can only get by diving the code? Got any more good reasons this feature should be pulled?

Of course, it's not true. Which begs the question of why would you possibly make that argument? "Oh hey this is having a bad effect on you, but if you just lie to yourself about it then everything will be ok even tho the bad effect is still happening" is literally what you are suggesting here.

You've misunderstood me. My point is that what you're saying is that when you see an abandoned shop, you apparently are telling yourself, "I was so close to getting a shop and the game stole it from me!". You seem to believe that in part because you know that behind the scenes the game starts by thinking about placing a shop and then potentially decides not to. You appear to choose to characterize this as the game taking away something that you should have.

If you instead characterize this process such that the actual shops displayed in game are the shops you should have and that nothing has been taken away, suddenly there's no reason for OP change to be made. This is an equally reasonable viewpoint; it's merely shifting at which point you choose to ask the question "why didn't the random numbers fall differently?"

You could ask that question every time you explore a new tile -- "This tile could have been a shop, but the RNG arbitrarily chose not to make it one" -- or you ask it after a shop has been placed but made empty or a mimic -- "This shop tile could have been an actual shop but the RNG arbitrarily chose not to make it one" -- or you can ask it after a shop generates -- "this shop could have had stuff I wanted but the RNG arbitrarily chose not to make it so" -- or you can just accept that sometimes random numbers place vaults and sometimes they don't; sometimes they place shops you want and sometimes they don't; sometimes they place the plutonium sword on D:1 and sometimes they put your first scroll of enchant armour in the Depths. You can choose to take umbrage with each time the RNG doesn't fall in your favor, or you can just accept that the dungeon you see is the dungeon you were intended to get.

This being GDD and all, would you care to, I dont know....actually explain your reasoning? I outlined a definite reason that flavor tiles are a problem with respect to shops, after all. It's right there in the OP.

This being GDD I don't see the point in wasting people's time with a recap of the discussion of traps we just had in another thread.

[byrel]

While I agree that there's no inherent difference logically between a chance of not being generated and a chance to be useless, the inherent complaint is a psychological one. It's well known that people don't react emotionally the same to loss and lack of positive. (We suck at gambling.)

This is particularly noticeable in the portal mimic case, because we do explicitly build expectation, only to yank it away. Yes, every floor that the portal didn't generate on and was eligible to also had the RNG screwing us exactly as much (or even more if you count the time-value of loot), but the simulated loss is much less fun than the lack of gain.

[tedric]

so the real solution to the OP complaint is Gamblers Anonymous? that squares with a theory i've held for a while now: that DCSS is the world's most elaborate slot machine, and the devs are a front for the mob!

[byrel]

so the real solution to the OP complaint is Gamblers Anonymous? that squares with a theory i've held for a while now: that DCSS is the world's most elaborate slot machine, and the devs are a front for the mob!

Well. If we hold that gambling is wrong in some way, yes... But my proposition is that gambling isn't wrong, but it sure as hell should be fun if you're going to blow as much on it as I do on crawl.

That's the key; yes we play a gambling game, and the Negamob of devs are trying to extract our energy. We might as well help them make it fun while we wait for the sailor scouts.

[njvack]

You've misunderstood me. My point is that what you're saying is that when you see an abandoned shop, you apparently are telling yourself, "I was so close to getting a shop and the game stole it from me!". You seem to believe that in part because you know that behind the scenes the game starts by thinking about placing a shop and then potentially decides not to. You appear to choose to characterize this as the game taking away something that you should have.

If you instead characterize this process such that the actual shops displayed in game are the shops you should have and that nothing has been taken away, suddenly there's no reason for OP change to be made. This is an equally reasonable viewpoint; it's merely shifting at which point you choose to ask the question "why didn't the random numbers fall differently?"

Just to check if I'm understanding your argument correctly -- it reads like folks are saying "abandoned shops make me feel frustrated and I would be happier if they weren't there" and your response is essentially "you are feeling the wrong thing"?

If that's right, it strikes me as a not very helpful design strategy. Folks feel the way they do about game features.

A better argument might be "abandoned shops exist for the same reason terrible randarts exist; it's to make you feel better about the good ones that generate" and there are, I think psychology & economic theories that would support this. I don't know that either of these things are actually worth keeping. I feel kind of ripped off by abandoned shops -- as much as I can feel ripped off by a thing in a roguelike, at least.

[dpeg]

Just wait until we get abandoned altars!

[Lasty]

Just to check if I'm understanding your argument correctly -- it reads like folks are saying "abandoned shops make me feel frustrated and I would be happier if they weren't there" and your response is essentially "you are feeling the wrong thing"?

If that's right, it strikes me as a not very helpful design strategy. Folks feel the way they do about game features.

You raise a good point. If this was a new player's first impression, I would see that as feedback suggesting that the feature can be frustrating, and that for at least some players its not a kind of frustration that is fun/interesting.

However in this case the OP made it clear that his interpretation is based on knowing details of how the shops are generated that aren't displayed to the player. He has outside-the-game information shaping his opinion, and with that information he has formed an interpretation that makes him frustrated. That case isn't really something it makes sense for game design to attempt to address.

[bcadren]

Random abandoned shops could just not spawn. There only practical effect is to be a decoy shop/portal which would frustrate Gozag and Ashenzari worshipers; DD and users of magic mapping as they had an anticipation of "SHOP" to find and then find nothing. I think it's similar to mimics; outside of vaults; they have no real purpose and could easily be removed.

[byrel]

No, I think it's based on knowing to expect a shop in a certain place (whether because Orc:4, bazaar, ash or a scroll of magic mapping) and getting the to find an abandoned shop. And feeling loss when that happens.

His complaint wasn't 'I don't get enough shops,' it was 'I don't like the feeling of loss in finding a nothing where I thought I would find a gamble-boxshop.'

I don't even have specific knowledge about how abandoned shops are randomly generated. But I know for sure that a place with guaranteed shops having some abandoned is a bad RNG roll, just as he described. It's the only conceivable reason for orc to have 2 abandoned shops.

[bel]

I have no idea how abandoned shops generate (except in the Abyss they all seem to be abandoned). But if all it does is that 10% (or whatever) are abandoned, I don't see any problems.

I don't see any issues with a "so close but yet so far" moment, as opposed to "nothing at all" moment, as long as it is relatively rare and thus is a small shock rather than an annoyance. For the same reason, I do not mind mimics.

[CanOfWorms]

Skimming through the bazaar vaults, it looks like there are only a few vaults that randomly decide if a shop is abandoned or not. Other than that, it looks like all bazaars are guaranteed to generate at least two shops; some vaults only generate two shops.

Can abandoned shops actually replace one of the four guaranteed shops in Orc:4? I don't really track how many shops I get in Orc, and most of my disappointment comes from the contents of the shop rather than the number of shops. There is actually one Orc ending that can generate abandoned shops, but they don't overwrite actual shops. The vault just places either nothing, an abandoned shop or some other non-shop feature.

[archaeo]

CanOfWorms, in my own look through the vaults, I got hung up on whether "Any Shop" included abandoned shops, since I saw that used a fair few times. As far as I could tell, the only Orc:4 that placed abandoned shops was Pubby's Orc Utopia, and they were just a low-weight replacement for fountains or ground tiles.

Unless I'm very much mistaken, abandoned shop generation has basically nothing to do with shop generation outside of bazaars and vaults. Are there a bunch of decorative shop vaults that have a chance to have abandoned shops in them?

I feel kind of ripped off by abandoned shops -- as much as I can feel ripped off by a thing in a roguelike, at least.

This just puts us back in a weird argument where to try to delineate between degrees of "unfairness," as though an abandoned shop generating is meaningfully different from any other bad RNG result. "Unfairfeel" is up there with "lootfeel" and "trapfeel" w/r/t being more art than science, and I think you're right to make the argument that roguelikes derive some of their power by dealing crappy hands instead of winning hands all the time.

FWIW, I'd much prefer to see the RNG screw me over with an abandoned shop than, say, a D:2 Kobold with distortion.

[Rast]

serious FR: 50% of abandoned shops that would be generated are instead generated as "shop traps". Just like normal traps, except they look like shops and can only be triggered by the player choosing to enter them.

[duvessa]

However in this case the OP made it clear that his interpretation is based on knowing details of how the shops are generated that aren't displayed to the player. He has outside-the-game information shaping his opinion, and with that information he has formed an interpretation that makes him frustrated. That case isn't really something it makes sense for game design to attempt to address.

Jesus christ, he has that interpretation because it's called an abandoned shop. By far the most likely unspoiled player interpretation of a feature called "abandoned shop" is that it's almost, but not quite, a shop that they can buy items from. Especially since buying all the items from a working shop turns it into an abandoned shop. The connection between an abandoned shop and a non-abandoned shop is obvious. Either stop being wilfully obtuse and address the actual topic (which could be as simple as saying "this won't change"), or don't bother posting in this thread.

If the game had an item called "broken crystal plate armour" that you couldn't wear, do you think unspoiled players would assume "oh, it's just a little bit of flavour and is completely unrelated to crystal plate armour"?

[njvack]

However in this case the OP made it clear that his interpretation is based on knowing details of how the shops are generated that aren't displayed to the player. He has outside-the-game information shaping his opinion, and with that information he has formed an interpretation that makes him frustrated.

OK, well, I don't know how shops are generated (other than "probably a whole bunch of ways") and they make me frustrated. The only place they kind of make sense to me is in Abyss because anything can kind of make sense there. Anywhere else, it's kind of "hey look some loot, oh wait no just kidding, ha ha" and I kind of feel like it's one of those jokes where the person telling it could also have just not told the joke and that would have been OK, too.

Don't get me wrong; abandoned shops are mildly irritating at worst and it may be that one of the design goals of Crawl is to give players flavor-only middle fingers from time to time. But I think a surprise Rupert is a better middle finger than a shop with no items.

[Lasty]

I don't know why you think it's reasonable to call my position so far "willfully obtuse". I think I've been quite clear and quite consistent in my argumentation -- not to say I'm right, but that you should assume I'm being genuine. If I haven't been clear or consistent, the appropriate response is to point out where you think I've failed rather than pretending that I'm arguing with people for fun.

In your example, I'd assume that broken CPA was intentionally generated as such and not because "I was just thiiiiis much RNG away from real CPA." I would assume that there's a way to turn the broken CPA into something useful (most likely a real CPA), and if there wasn't I'd think that broken CPA was probably a bad thing to include in the game. I would assume that because it's something you pick up and interact with.

[Siegurt]

<notserious>
Fr: "summon shopkeeper" scroll, if used on an abandoned shop it becomes a real shop, is used on a real shop, the shopkeepers have a fight and the winner takes over, but adds 'head of <former shopkeeper>' as a purchasable item. (50/50 chance of generating a new shop inventory)

If you summon a shopkeeper not on a shop, he just kills you and puts your head on the wall.
</notserious>

I think the disappointment actually spawns in part from learning there is no way to turn an abandoned shop into a real one.

I think this is the same reason we used to be able to sometimes eat poisonous corpses, and we used to have nauseating chunks.

People like possibility, some people find not possible things annoying or frustrating. Uncommon, difficult or even very rarely possible things are exciting, impossible things are not, particularly when they "seem like they should be possible"

[daggaz]

Thank you for explaining your position, Lasty.

So actually when I first saw the shops, I thought oh that's disappointing because I didnt recognize the tile for what it was and thought, "ooh a shop!" and of course it's not. Everytime I saw one after that, I would have the same twinge, but...and this is maybe funny to you I dont know, I never really pushed it here because I always just assumed that, given this is Crawl, most likely they are just generated independently anyhow because Crawl just likes to fuck with you. Note that I still found this to be a negative stimuli, and I have no doubt so do a lot of players.

Then I realized, thru in-game play, that abandoned shops can and do replace real shops, and so must be inside the selection list of shop_type or whatever its called in the code. Which frankly stinks. Because while the end result regarding probabilities is indeed the same, that only makes sense if you put on horse blinders and only consider the binary state of Yes A Shop vs No Shop. The actual process is not logically identical by any means, and that is what I outlined in the OP. Nobody cares if random tile x is not a shop, because the odds are simply against it. You have no reasonable expectation for a shop. Its only when you have seen a few million random tiles and still no shops, that those odds start adding up along with your sense of disappointment. But with an abandoned shop tile, you KNOW you have beaten the first part of the odds, the 1 in a million part. What you just failed on, was the 1/10 chance of then rolling Not A Shop. That is the same as thinking you have won the lottery, only to find out that there was a mistake and they read off yesterdays numbers on accident. It is especially bad when it effects a non-random shop, such as in a bazaar where the sidewalk tiles clearly indicate a shop was meant to load.

So to reiterate: If a player doesn't know how the abandoned shop is generated, it is probably disappointing. If a player does know how the abandoned shop is generated, it is VERY disappointing. And finally, the flavour one does get out of this is often used incoherently (tho examples were given to improve this) and seems like a poor deal given the impact on fun and the total lack of interesting choice introduced by this feature (and that was also touched on in this thread).

In conclusion: abandoned shops stink and there are way too many food shops. General stores should sell a little more fruit for the spriggans or something, instead.

[archaeo]

Ok, would someone please be kind enough to explain exactly how and when abandoned shops get generated?

For example, lots of .des files have "any shop" specified; does that occasionally result in an abandoned shop? If not, then it seems like abandoned shops only replace actual shops in a couple of bazaars, and it's otherwise a completely non-consequential bit of flavor that has nothing to do with the chance a player has of actually getting a shop.

I'm 100% sure that I'm the least qualified person in this thread to go source diving in search of this answer, so I'd really love it if someone could shine some light on this process.

In conclusion: abandoned shops stink and there are way too many food shops. General stores should sell a little more fruit for the spriggans or something, instead.

Since several devs have evinced interest in tacking food reform in 0.18, I think it's safe to say that food shops will get looked at in that process.

[duvessa]

All shops come from vaults (and Gozag). This includes the "standard" shops that generate on random dungeon levels; when the game wants to generate a shop it picks a random shop vault:

  Code:

# XXX: Don't change the name of this vault!
# Gozag code uses it to find out where shops can normally place.
NAME: serial_shops
TAGS: allow_dup extra luniq
DEPTH: D:4-, Depths, Orc, Elf, Shoals, Snake, Vaults
CHANCE: 20% (D)
CHANCE: 20% (Depths)
CHANCE: 30% (Orc)
CHANCE: 40% (Elf, Vaults)
CHANCE: 20% (Shoals, Snake)
{{
hook("post_place", function()
    local num = num_shops()

    if you.absdepth() > 10 and you.absdepth() <= 27
      and crawl.one_chance_in(30 - (you.absdepth() - 1))
    then
        dgn.place_maps { tag = "bzr_entry", count = 1 }
        num = num - 1
    end

    dgn.place_maps { tag = "shop", count = num }
end)
}}
MAP
ENDMAP

Every "shop" tagged vault has one shop. One has three abandoned shops in addition to the one real shop, so they don't replace real shops.

There are two bazaar vaults place abandoned shops. One places between 2 and 6 real shops (up to 4 can be replaced by abandoned shops). Another places between 2 and 8 real shops in the same way.

One orc ending vault has a specific spot for the Elf entrance, but if it didn't generate on the same level the Elf entrance is supposed to be on, then that spot turns into an abandoned shop, fountain, or floor. The vault always has 4 real shops.

There are vaults in abyss, spider, and temple that use abandoned shops as decoration. Also arrival vaults. None of these branches are supposed to have real shops ever, nor are arrival vaults (but I wouldn't be surprised if this rule is actually broken by some other vault(s)).

Finally, there's one vault which (assuming the "extra", "decor", and "transparent" tags work correctly) does literally nothing except stop autoexplore and guarantee a floor tile isn't a trap:

  Code:

NAME:  abandoned_shop
TAGS:  transparent extra allow_dup decor
DEPTH: D:4-, Depths, Orc, Elf, Shoals, Snake, Forest
KFEAT: O = abandoned_shop
MAP
O
ENDMAP

[WildSam]

I once risked life and limb to get to a bazaar portal, only to find single interesting item amongst piles of trash. Shimmering double sword which turned out to be holy +2 {*Contam Dex-3 rC-} (and I play Ds). Wow. Such fun.
Proposal: remove randarts. They are literally a item marker that says "you almost got +11 double sword of Pure Awesomeness {speed, Str+6, Int+6, rF++, rC++, dowans want to be like you, duvessas want to lay with you} to load here, but instead you got shafted by the RNG and now it's going to laugh in your face about it".
Proposal: remove bazaars. Seriously. We are swimming in shops with worthless junk already.
Proposal: remove shops. These things serve absolutely no purpose other than to frustrate or disappoint the player, which only makes the game less fun without bringing anything of value.

Given it's thread about being mad at random things for being random and unreliable, we may want remove all random-relating things, or simply all things. They may be disappointing! I thought abandoning hope and considering worst case are Crawl basics.

[duvessa]

you almost got +11 double sword of Pure Awesomeness {speed, Str+6, Int+6, rF++, rC++, dowans want to be like you, duvessas want to lay with you}

you fuckin' wish, nerd

[daggaz]

I once risked life and limb to get to a bazaar portal, only to find single interesting item amongst piles of trash. Shimmering double sword which turned out to be holy +2 {*Contam Dex-3 rC-} (and I play Ds). Wow. Such fun.
Proposal: remove randarts. They are literally a item marker that says "you almost got +11 double sword of Pure Awesomeness {speed, Str+6, Int+6, rF++, rC++, dowans want to be like you, duvessas want to lay with you} to load here, but instead you got shafted by the RNG and now it's going to laugh in your face about it".
Proposal: remove bazaars. Seriously. We are swimming in shops with worthless junk already.
Proposal: remove shops. These things serve absolutely no purpose other than to frustrate or disappoint the player, which only makes the game less fun without bringing anything of value.

Given it's thread about being mad at random things for being random and unreliable, we may want remove all random-relating things, or simply all things. They may be disappointing! I thought abandoning hope and considering worst case are Crawl basics.

That point was addressed specifically in this thread. You would know that had you read the thread before jumping at the bit to make your subtle, cleverly back-handed critique. That said, the crap-factor of most randarts and the cursed item system have been the subject of plenty of debate.

[archaeo]

That said, the crap-factor of most randarts and the cursed item system have been the subject of plenty of debate.

It should say something that the devs haven't really given much attention to criticism of cruddy randarts or obnoxious cursed items despite the fact that the arguments against them are much stronger than the arguments against abandoned shops, imo.

Far be it from me to speak for the devs, but it seems like they prefer a game where the player gets random setbacks and bonuses, all of which range between incredibly meaningful (big difference getting str-2 and teleportitis when you get malmuted, or finding a D:3 GDA on your TrBe) and mostly psychological. Randarts and cursed items fall somewhere in between those; I'd say abandoned shops fall squarely in the "psychological" pile, excepting only those two bazaars that can screw you out of shops occasionally.