Abyss Ambulator
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Remove Abandoned Shops
As an aside, also reduce the occurrence of food shops. Seriously. We are swimming in rations already.
Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.
Abyss Ambulator
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Vestibule Violator
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Dungeon Dilettante
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Abyss Ambulator
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byrel wrote:I disagree about the foodshops... I think they're about right.
byrel wrote:And abandoned shops should still be usable for flavor (abyss and vaults.).
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Pandemonium Purger
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daggaz wrote:"oh great, another shop I could have used but now cant"
Abyss Ambulator
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Dungeon Master
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Lasty wrote:If I told you that abandoned shops are generated independently from active shops, would it change how you feel about the feature? If so, I recommend that you believe it, even if it isn't true.
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Abyss Ambulator
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Lasty wrote:If I told you that abandoned shops are generated independently from active shops, would it change how you feel about the feature? If so, I recommend that you believe it, even if it isn't true.
Lasty wrote:I see no problem with flavor tiles. The fact that it means there's no trap is a problem with traps, not with abandoned shops.
Spider Stomper
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Pandemonium Purger
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daggaz wrote:They are literally a place marker that says "you almost got a shop to load here, but instead you got shafted by the RNG and now it's going to laugh in your face about it".
Slime Squisher
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Sprucery wrote:FR: shop traps!
Abyss Ambulator
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Pollen_Golem wrote:And that's a bad thing now? Mild disappointments like this can be thrilling, and I think many other players like it too.
Pollen_Golem wrote:What's DCSS all about anyway?
ololoev wrote:Sprucery wrote:FR: shop traps!
You enter it and get abyssed!
Crypt Cleanser
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RBrandon wrote:I think that the example in the OP of bazaar shops being replaced is particularly poignant. If it is desirable to reduce the number of shops generated wouldn't the best way to do that be to... reduce the number of shops generated?
Pollen_Golem wrote:Mild disappointments like this can be thrilling
Pollen_Golem wrote:What's DCSS all about anyway?
Abyss Ambulator
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Quazifuji wrote: Same for Orc (does that actually happen? I've definitely seen abandoned shops on Orc 4, but I don't know if I've ever gotten fewer than 4 non-abandoned shops there).
Crypt Cleanser
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daggaz wrote:I'm actually not 100% sure. I feel like I have seen it before, but I could easily be mistaken. At any rate, abandoned shops DO replace guaranteed shops in bazaars as well as random shops in the dungeon proper, so I made the thread.
Cocytus Succeeder
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Tartarus Sorceror
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Location: South Carolina
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Dungeon Master
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daggaz wrote:They are literally a place marker that says "you almost got a shop to load here, but instead you got shafted by the RNG and now it's going to laugh in your face about it" [...]
In the vaults I just think "oh great, another shop I could have used but now cant" [...]
But for a moment, you thought you might have had something, the chance was there. There is no such chance with the abandoned shop. You see it, you immediately know you rolled 00 on the shop chart.[...]
So if one were to assume that statement was true, then what you are saying is the only way to avoid being let down by empty shops is through very spoilery knowledge about the game's inner workings that one can only get by diving the code? Got any more good reasons this feature should be pulled?
Of course, it's not true. Which begs the question of why would you possibly make that argument? "Oh hey this is having a bad effect on you, but if you just lie to yourself about it then everything will be ok even tho the bad effect is still happening" is literally what you are suggesting here.
daggaz wrote:This being GDD and all, would you care to, I dont know....actually explain your reasoning? I outlined a definite reason that flavor tiles are a problem with respect to shops, after all. It's right there in the OP.
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tedric wrote:so the real solution to the OP complaint is Gamblers Anonymous? that squares with a theory i've held for a while now: that DCSS is the world's most elaborate slot machine, and the devs are a front for the mob!
Barkeep
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Lasty wrote:You've misunderstood me. My point is that what you're saying is that when you see an abandoned shop, you apparently are telling yourself, "I was so close to getting a shop and the game stole it from me!". You seem to believe that in part because you know that behind the scenes the game starts by thinking about placing a shop and then potentially decides not to. You appear to choose to characterize this as the game taking away something that you should have.
If you instead characterize this process such that the actual shops displayed in game are the shops you should have and that nothing has been taken away, suddenly there's no reason for OP change to be made. This is an equally reasonable viewpoint; it's merely shifting at which point you choose to ask the question "why didn't the random numbers fall differently?"
Dungeon Master
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Dungeon Master
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njvack wrote:Just to check if I'm understanding your argument correctly -- it reads like folks are saying "abandoned shops make me feel frustrated and I would be happier if they weren't there" and your response is essentially "you are feeling the wrong thing"?
If that's right, it strikes me as a not very helpful design strategy. Folks feel the way they do about game features.
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Barkeep
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njvack wrote:I feel kind of ripped off by abandoned shops -- as much as I can feel ripped off by a thing in a roguelike, at least.
Tartarus Sorceror
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Lasty wrote:However in this case the OP made it clear that his interpretation is based on knowing details of how the shops are generated that aren't displayed to the player. He has outside-the-game information shaping his opinion, and with that information he has formed an interpretation that makes him frustrated. That case isn't really something it makes sense for game design to attempt to address.
Barkeep
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Lasty wrote:However in this case the OP made it clear that his interpretation is based on knowing details of how the shops are generated that aren't displayed to the player. He has outside-the-game information shaping his opinion, and with that information he has formed an interpretation that makes him frustrated.
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Abyss Ambulator
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Barkeep
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daggaz wrote:In conclusion: abandoned shops stink and there are way too many food shops. General stores should sell a little more fruit for the spriggans or something, instead.
# XXX: Don't change the name of this vault!
# Gozag code uses it to find out where shops can normally place.
NAME: serial_shops
TAGS: allow_dup extra luniq
DEPTH: D:4-, Depths, Orc, Elf, Shoals, Snake, Vaults
CHANCE: 20% (D)
CHANCE: 20% (Depths)
CHANCE: 30% (Orc)
CHANCE: 40% (Elf, Vaults)
CHANCE: 20% (Shoals, Snake)
{{
hook("post_place", function()
local num = num_shops()
if you.absdepth() > 10 and you.absdepth() <= 27
and crawl.one_chance_in(30 - (you.absdepth() - 1))
then
dgn.place_maps { tag = "bzr_entry", count = 1 }
num = num - 1
end
dgn.place_maps { tag = "shop", count = num }
end)
}}
MAP
ENDMAP
Snake Sneak
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WildSam wrote:you almost got +11 double sword of Pure Awesomeness {speed, Str+6, Int+6, rF++, rC++, dowans want to be like you, duvessas want to lay with you}
Abyss Ambulator
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WildSam wrote:I once risked life and limb to get to a bazaar portal, only to find single interesting item amongst piles of trash. Shimmering double sword which turned out to be holy +2 {*Contam Dex-3 rC-} (and I play Ds). Wow. Such fun.
Proposal: remove randarts. They are literally a item marker that says "you almost got +11 double sword of Pure Awesomeness {speed, Str+6, Int+6, rF++, rC++, dowans want to be like you, duvessas want to lay with you} to load here, but instead you got shafted by the RNG and now it's going to laugh in your face about it".
Proposal: remove bazaars. Seriously. We are swimming in shops with worthless junk already.
Proposal: remove shops. These things serve absolutely no purpose other than to frustrate or disappoint the player, which only makes the game less fun without bringing anything of value.
Given it's thread about being mad at random things for being random and unreliable, we may want remove all random-relating things, or simply all things. They may be disappointing! I thought abandoning hope and considering worst case are Crawl basics.
Barkeep
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daggaz wrote:That said, the crap-factor of most randarts and the cursed item system have been the subject of plenty of debate.
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