Proposal: Minor DS tweaks & New DS Muts

[infinitevox]

I've combed through changelogs, proposed/accepted/disregarded changes, and gathered lots of anecdotal evidence for the 2 minor DS changes and new DS muts I'm proposing. (From pretty much playing DemonSpawn to the exclusion of all else.)

CDO Wiki Topic: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:species:demonspawn_brainstorming

Minor Tweak 1:
Upon becoming a Monstrous DS, the UC aptitude changes from -1 to +1. This might persuade people to actually play out a Monstrous DS instead of scumming.

Reasoning:
Often times a DS ends up with EQ slots prohibited by bodyslot mutations that grant aux attacks. Now while UC doesn't affect the dmg done by those aux attacks, it makes sense to me, thematically, that a species that often develops "unarmed" mutations would be good at UC.


Minor Tweak 2:
Change Transmutations aptitude from -1 to 0.

Reasoning: Again, this change makes sense thematically. One would think that a species that acquires strong mutations as they grow would also have an affinity for Transmutation magic.

I feel that neither of these changes would cause the DS species to have an overtly easier time in the dungeon, but rather would open up a couple different avenues of play for the species. The Transmuter class could/would then open up to DS and allow a different start, one that makes use of the bodyslot muts that DS will inevitably develop, as a hybrid Caster/Unarmed fighter.


On to the New DS Muts...

Wings - Tier 1 Bodyslot
Rank 1 - Wings 1; You have a small pair of wings. (Evokable Flight, Prohibits Cloaks)
Rank 2 - Wings 2; You have a pair of wings. (Controlled Flight, Prohibits Cloaks)
Rank 3 - Wings 3; You have large powerful wings. (Move Delay -1, Prohibits Cloaks)

Durability - Tier 2
Rank 1 - Durable 1; You are more durable than average. (Reduce damage taken by a very small amount [1] )
Rank 2 - Durable 2; You are very durable. (Reduce damage taken by a small amount [1-2] )
Rank 3 - Durable 3; You are extremely durable. (Reduce damage taken by a fair amount [2-3] )

Sturdy Frame - Tier 2 (Substitutes for Scales Facet) [Coded by chequers: https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/170]
Rank 1 - Sturdy 1; You wear your armour with ease. (Reduction in Encumbrance Rating and EV penalty from armour; -2 ER, min 0)
Rank 2 - Sturdy 2; You barely notice your armour. (-4 ER)
Rank 3 - Sturdy 3; Your armour is like a second skin. (-6 ER)

Web - Tier 2
Rank 1 - Web 1; You can excrete a weak web. (Creates a weak web on same tile as player, Costs: Breath, Hunger) [Player unaffected, web breaks on 2nd attempt]
Rank 2 - Web 2; You can spit a weak web. (Can spit a web at an enemy, Costs: Breath, Hunger) [Same properties as Rank 1, now Ranged]
Rank 3 - Web 3; You can spit a strong web. (Can spit a web at an enemy, Costs: Breath, Hunger) [Functions similar to Throwing a Net]


On the shelf for now:
Tail - Tier 1 (Not quite Bodyslot)
Rank 1 - Tail 1; You have a thin ropey tail. (Weak Aux "Tail Slap" attack)
Rank 2 - Tail 2; You have a long tail. (Strong Aux attack, EV -1), [There's more of you to hit...]
Rank 3 - Tail 3; You have a thick powerful tail. (Excellent Aux attack, EV -2)


Thoughts?

[byrel]

Tweak1: I much prefer the optional form of this; DS are bad at all weapons. OTOH, it might make sense for monstrous to get an advantage there.

I'm a little surprised they have a flat Tm skill. It would make sense for that to be at least 0. (Same logic as Merfolk)

Wings:
-1 move delay is huge. Probably too big for a body slot at all, but it needs to be on the max rank. Maybe have wings 3 give +2 EV instead?

Tail: Sounds fine, but with that EV penalty you might want to enable constriction at rank 3.

Durability: It's fine. GDR isn't that big a deal most of the time, but could be nice vs. juggernauts and whatnot.

Sturdy Frame: The name's not great but it's an awesome idea for a scales facet IMHO.

Web: Eh. Sounds tedious, dull and powerful.

Edit: Thanks for a really nice writeup.

[njvack]

Sturdy Frame sounds interesting. Infinite webs would be outrageously, hugely overpowered.

[Sar]

Wings sound completely and irredeemably terrible. "Durability" sounds useless.

[ion_frigate]

My own thoughts:

Minor Tweak 1: I like the idea of changing UC to 0. Changing aptitudes with mutations is kind of Dr territory, and it'd be weird to have it occur only very occasionally with DS.

Minor Tweak 2: Sort of indifferent on this one. It works thematically but not in terms of game mechanics - mutations don't actually synergize with Tm.

Wings: The slot cost is interesting and unique (no other species loses just a cloak), but -1 movement delay is definitely overpowered early on: I'd say make it the final benefit, not the first. -1 movement delay and Flight overlaps with Tengu somewhat, but I think the tradeoff is sufficiently different not to be a huge issue (Tengu get -1 delay + EV for 1.5 slots and crappy HP, this gives -1 delay for 1 slot).

Tail: I like it reasonably well, even if it's not especially groundbreaking.

Durability: No, just no. GDR is an opaque mechanic that tends to matter a lot less than players think, and ultimately this isn't doing anything that a normal scales mutation doesn't already do.

Sturdy Frame: I like this a lot - it opens up new options for players, and might make them consider adjusting their character (e.g. making a heavy armor fighter branch out more into magic). The numbers would need a lot of work/playtesting though.

Web: I like it. It's a lot more interesting than most breath weapons. The breath timer would probably need to be adjusted so it wouldn't be overpowered.

[Sar]

Wait, wings make you FASTER instead of SLOWER? In exchange for cloak slot? I... kinda like it?

[infinitevox]

DS to me basically epitomize the entire DCSS experience. Namely, adapting to what is thrown at you. That's probably why I enjoy playing them so much, each game I have to not only adapt to what the dungeon generates, but also to how my DS develops. So a wider variety of muts is "fun" to me.

Minor Tweak 1: I guess I feel that Mons DS is enough of a turnoff for most people that it should either be done away with or changed slightly. If it were possible, I'd actually like to see numbers on how many people attempt to play out a Mons DS instead of restarting. The difficulty level increases more than most people realize I think, if you consider that the loss of bodyslots also means losses on sources of resistance. So a 0 or +1 to UC seems like slight compensation for that.

Minor Tweak 2: Ion, I disagree on Tm not fitting mechanically. Transmuters mutate their bodies for advantages. DS also mutate their bodies for advantages, albeit with no control. The two are similar enough in nature that I don't think it's that far-fetched that DS would have a Tm affinity.

Wings: Yes, Faster! :p
If -1 Move Delay is too much early, that's an easy enough fix. Maybe go: Evoke Flight, Controlled Flight, -1 Move Delay?

Tail: Could save the EV penalty until Ranks 2 & 3, and reduce it to -1 and -2 respectively. Also was thinking, after what Byrel posted, splitting Rank 3 into 2 branches.
Rank 3a - grants constriction
Rank 3b - "Stinger" aka poison brand

Durability: I guess I fall into the camp of players that thinks it matters more than it really does. I thought the option of getting an absurd ~63% GDR with Crystal Plate Armour could be interesting, but maybe this idea needs to go in the trash bin.

Sturdy Frame: Anyone have a better name?

Web: Like with anything, it would need balancing, but I also thought it could be a lot of fun. The other breath weapons do damage or do damage and an effect. This is utilitarian. And would give DS stabbers a neat little tool for when the detectfoo RNG decides to be super fickle.

[ion_frigate]

Minor Tweak 2: Ion, I disagree on Tm not fitting mechanically. Transmuters mutate their bodies for advantages. DS also mutate their bodies for advantages, albeit with no control. The two are similar enough in nature that I don't think it's that far-fetched that DS would have a Tm affinity.

They're similar thematically, but Ds mutations have no effect on any transmutations - being a Ds doesn't make the skill any worse or better for you. I just realized this is also true of UC and aux attacks (wasn't always) - so honestly, I'm ambivalent about both skill increases. On the one hand, I generally like it when aptitudes aren't completely flat, but on the other hand there really isn't a lot of justification for either increase.

[infinitevox]

Oh okay, I see where you're going with that now. Yeah, both my points for the Tm change are thematic.

Speaking of Tm though....does anyone else think that Tm should give +rMut in the same manner that Enchantment gives +MR? Or maybe have it skew Muts more favorably towards those with high Tm skill? Maybe that deserves a topic of its own...

[Sar]

Enchantment gives +MR

Um, it doesn't?

[infinitevox]

Doesn't wielding a Staff of Enchantment give +MR?
I swear it did.

*Edit*
Oh, I see what happened. It used to.
There also used to be a school called Enchantment, which did give +MR. It doesn't exist anymore.
Sorry, sometimes I mix up what's in the current version. My bad :p

[chequers]

The ER reduction mutation seems interesting. It would encourage more hybridisation for the vast majority of Ds which are melee focused.

For monstrous Ds, are claws guaranteed? If not, guaranteeing them (and having them arrive early) may be a sufficient enough change to make monstrous reasonable.

[byrel]

I don't think enchantments did, at least not in the version I played... (Actually it did I guess...) And training skills shouldn't affect resistances. Those systems are easier to balance and better kept separate, and combining them would inevitably result in new players over-valuing training them.

Claws are guaranteed on monstrous. I always play them out.

And for Sturdy Frame, I'd go straight utilitarian: Armour Affinity.

I think you underestimate how boring optimal play with web-breath would be. The tradeoff should be more significant than breath if you wanted to keep it; maybe Draining, or degen, or decreased speed... or something. But honestly, I don't think it's very redeemable.

For the GDR, you have to keep in mind that all ranged attacks and spells ignore GDR, and if you have decent AC it rarely comes into effect against any but the highest damage threats (Orb guardians, Juggernauts). The one place where that could be OK would be in leather armour or some such where your AC is 15-20. At that point, maybe having 25% GDR would actually kick in reasonably often. IT's still going to be crappy, even worse than the straight AC + minor resistance scales.

I really think Tail, Wings, and Sturdy FrameArmour Affinity are the gold here though.

[partial]

I love Sturdy Frame

[bcadren]

Wings is exactly what Tengu do; save that tengu don't give up a slot specifically FOR their wings. (They give up boots and helmets, so whatever). [Evocable flight, movement delay -1 while flying. EV x1.25 while flying.]

[jason0320]

Web spitting is quite unique. And I think current aux attacks are too weak for their drawback. Hope aux attack powers grow with HD or strength.

[tasonir]

Alternative version of durability: Since GDR only applies to melee it isn't terribly versitile, instead copy DD damage shaving and have it apply to all attacks.

Durability rank 1: Reduce damage taken by a very small amount (0-2)
Durability rank 2: Reduce damage taken by a small amount (0-3)
Durability rank 3: Reduce damage taken by a fair amount (1-3)

You won't even get the guaranteed reduction until rank 3, and the overall range is much lower than DD, so I don't think this is terribly overpowered. It'd basically be like getting 4-5 ac, although you do get guaranteed reduction of at least 1 point at rank 3, which ac can fail to provide on bad rolls.

[chequers]

At those levels of shaving I'm not sure anyone would notice the effect as meaningfully different from +5 AC, which is what scales do already.

[chequers]

Here's sturdy frame as an ER: https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/170

[infinitevox]

Here's sturdy frame as an ER: https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/170

Holy crap this is amazing!!
Thank you so much for taking the time to do this!

[byrel]

Damage shaving applies to AC piercing sources like poison, hellfire and elec.

[tasonir]

I agree it isn't terribly different from ac, but I think that's good - you want it to be roughly equal to other facets. The main thing you'd notice, at rank 3 especially, is that poison becomes much less threatening. You'd need pretty severe poisoning to get through. And it'll take 5% or so off hellfire, which while not incredible, every bit helps. But it shouldn't be so powerful that it overshadows the rest of the scale facets. I'd argue that rough black (+10 ac -3 dex), rugged brown (+3ac +7% hp), and iridescent (+8 ac) are all better scales facets. Large bone plates and repulsion field are maybe better, depending on the character (if you had no other source of repel, then repulsion is awesome; if you could already cast it, then just +4 ev isn't as impressive). I'd probably prefer durability over yellow/red/blue/thin metallic/green scales, not that those are bad, just not quite as strong. Overall I'd say most of the scales facets are pretty even in power, compared to some other tiers of demonspawn mutations which have a bit more variation.

[infinitevox]

Wings is exactly what Tengu do; save that tengu don't give up a slot specifically FOR their wings. (They give up boots and helmets, so whatever). [Evocable flight, movement delay -1 while flying. EV x1.25 while flying.]

Tengu also get that additional EV, which is not something the mutation would give. And 1.25x EV is nothing to joke about, that adds up pretty quick.

That being said, and with the feedback from some other folks, I think maybe Wings progression should be:

  Code:

Wings - Tier 1 Bodyslot
Rank 1 - Wings 1; You have a small pair of wings. (Evokable Flight, Prohibits Cloaks)
Rank 2 - Wings 2; You have a pair of wings. (Controlled Flight, Prohibits Cloaks)
Rank 3 - Wings 3; You have large powerful wings. (Move Delay -1, Prohibits Cloaks)

Alternative version of durability: Since GDR only applies to melee it isn't terribly versitile, instead copy DD damage shaving and have it apply to all attacks.

Durability rank 1: Reduce damage taken by a very small amount (0-2)
Durability rank 2: Reduce damage taken by a small amount (0-3)
Durability rank 3: Reduce damage taken by a fair amount (1-3)

You won't even get the guaranteed reduction until rank 3, and the overall range is much lower than DD, so I don't think this is terribly overpowered. It'd basically be like getting 4-5 ac, although you do get guaranteed reduction of at least 1 point at rank 3, which ac can fail to provide on bad rolls.

I like this. Since finding out the GDR isn't anywhere near as great as I initially thought, and this basically achieves the goal I was looking for (guaranteed damage reduction lol ).
I would change it slightly though. I'm not really worried about it making poison much less threatening, as Regen already does that on it's own, and much of the other facets provide at least 1 pip of resistance to something. So instead of a strong resistance to 1 thing, this would provide a small res to everything.

I would probably do:

  Code:

Durability rank 1: Reduce damage taken by a very small amount (1)
Durability rank 2: Reduce damage taken by a small amount (1-2)
Durability rank 3: Reduce damage taken by a fair amount (1-3)

But then again, any numbers we come up with are totally arbitrary until it comes to playtesting. But I definitely think this is a much better idea than additive GDR.

Here's sturdy frame as an ER: https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/170

BTW, I added your code to the source and compiled, this really makes for some cool gameplay choices with Ds. I really really like it a lot.