The Tavern

Crawl strives to avoid monsters that are too spoilery, or have a chance to punish you without you reacting. Ghost moths seem to go completely against this concept. They are the only permanently invisible monster with a ranged attack, and one that is irresistable and near instantly gimps spellcasting classes. In addition to that they are a credible melee threat with stat drain, speed, and strong poison. If you do not already know that Spider is filled with fast, invisible monsters that will empty your mana pool within four turns of getting into vision range, you can make massive judgment errors in fights that don't occur with monsters that spellcast invis or are melee-only permanent invis (except that one vault that's like 16 tiles of Unseen Horrors, but I think that was removed). Additionally, ghost moths add a lot of tedium to Spider if you know they exist and don't have sInv, since you need to keep a much closer eye on your mana pool even in popcorn fights.

I have two possible suggestions:

1. Ghost Moths get spell-invis instead of permanent invis. That way, new players can see them and examine them before they go invis, or have potential to melee them between casts.
2. Ghost moths keep permanent invis but lose their mana drain. Moths of suppression are re-added to the game as extremely fast monsters with mana drain and modest melee attacks.

I think I prefer #2, because it still provides Spider with a highly dangerous, permanently invisible monster.

why do they have invis at all? it's not like you're not going to know there's a ghost moth around, they give you a message shortly after coming into los...

Ghost Moths occur far enough in the game I think characters can handle them even unspoiled (?tele or ?blink for example).

If a player dies to a Ghost Moth or creates a Ghost Moth corpse they can ?/ their description, or if they ever see a Ghost Moth and x over them.

I guess ghost moths could be mentioned in the description of the Spider branch if they aren't already? That strikes me as a low cost way to give players the heads up.

I don't understand the "ghost moths cause tedium" complaint.

Moths of suppression will not be added back to the game for a variety of good reasons.

@duvessa ghost moths being invisible hides where the ghost moth is, forcing the player to locate them before attacking them?

reaver wrote:@duvessa ghost moths being invisible hides where the ghost moth is, forcing the player to locate them before attacking them?

...how on earth does it accomplish that? Their movement is deterministic.

reaver wrote:I don't understand the "ghost moths cause tedium" complaint.

well for one thing they still break autoexplore with default rc files

I guess moth of suppression was the wrong term. I just like the name; I don't want them stopping equipment, just filling the role of "fast melee enemy that can drain mana" in Spider.

duvessa wrote:
reaver wrote:@duvessa ghost moths being invisible hides where the ghost moth is, forcing the player to locate them before attacking them?
...how on earth does it accomplish that? Their movement is deterministic.

The "feel like you're being watched" message doesn't always tell you exactly where the Ghost Moths are, just they're in the LOS.

How does ghost moths breaking autoexplore differ from any other monster causing autoexplore to stop?

reaver wrote:The "feel like you're being watched" message doesn't always tell you exactly where the Ghost Moths are

the { on the screen does

reaver wrote:How does ghost moths breaking autoexplore differ from any other monster causing autoexplore to stop?

currently they break it by being invisible, previously it was even worse and the "being watched by something" message didn't stop autoexplore

duvessa wrote:
reaver wrote:The "feel like you're being watched" message doesn't always tell you exactly where the Ghost Moths are
the { on the screen does

the { doesn't always appear, unless tiles are mechanically different from console from some reason ??? (I tested it on cbro webtiles because I don't have access to console at the moment.)

Yeah I can agree the interaction between invisible monsters and autoexplore is slightly awkward.

reaver wrote:I don't understand the "ghost moths cause tedium" complaint.

For some (many? most?) people, the primary indicator that you should stop mindlessly tabbing things and pay attention to a newly arrived threat is that you actually see the monster appear on screen.

Ghost moths don't have that indicator, and so a person mindlessly tabbing things has a much lesser awareness of the threat, and consequently a much lower reaction time.

If a player doesn't want to give ghost moths several free turns to do nasty things, they can no longer go through easy fights at their own pace, and have to instead take things more slowly and/or more attentively than usual, so as to match the pace of the game to their reaction time.

Hurkyl wrote:
reaver wrote:I don't understand the "ghost moths cause tedium" complaint.

For some (many? most?) people, the primary indicator that you should stop mindlessly tabbing things and pay attention to a newly arrived threat is that you actually see the monster appear on screen.

Ghost moths don't have that indicator, and so a person mindlessly tabbing things has a much lesser awareness of the threat, and consequently a much lower reaction time.

If a player doesn't want to give ghost moths several free turns to do nasty things, they can no longer go through easy fights at their own pace, and have to instead take things more slowly and/or more attentively than usual, so as to match the pace of the game to their reaction time.

while ghost moths are a terrible monster i think you're exaggerating the problem pretty badly here, because I can't imagine a character where ghost moths aren't completely trivial by the time they appear. I don't find that they slow down the game any more than any other harmless-but-takes-a-while-to-kill monster like emperor scorpions.

Somehow I never classified ghost moths or emperor scorpions as 'harmless'. I haven't actually died to either, but they've definitely made me burn consumables.

unless we're talking jackal packs on d1 it's just duvessa's "i'ts trivial"™ stock post.

duvessa wrote:while ghost moths are a terrible monster i think you're exaggerating the problem pretty badly here, because I can't imagine a character where ghost moths aren't completely trivial by the time they appear. I don't find that they slow down the game any more than any other harmless-but-takes-a-while-to-kill monster like emperor scorpions.

I can. They're called blasters. Definitely not trivial when they take away your main form of offence. But they're still not overpowered, and a blaster notices pretty quickly when his/her mp suddenly disappears.

Hurkyl wrote:
reaver wrote:I don't understand the "ghost moths cause tedium" complaint.

For some (many? most?) people, the primary indicator that you should stop mindlessly tabbing things and pay attention to a newly arrived threat is that you actually see the monster appear on screen.

Ghost moths don't have that indicator, and so a person mindlessly tabbing things has a much lesser awareness of the threat, and consequently a much lower reaction time.

If a player doesn't want to give ghost moths several free turns to do nasty things, they can no longer go through easy fights at their own pace, and have to instead take things more slowly and/or more attentively than usual, so as to match the pace of the game to their reaction time.

"mindlessly tabbing" is sub-optimal play, to say the least (which I think is what you're also getting at in your last paragraph)

duvessa wrote:while ghost moths are a terrible monster i think you're exaggerating the problem pretty badly here, because I can't imagine a character where ghost moths aren't completely trivial by the time they appear. I don't find that they slow down the game any more than any other harmless-but-takes-a-while-to-kill monster like emperor scorpions.

Speed 12, Ranged Anti-Magic, Invisible, Stat Drain, Strongest Poison hit of the game...I think they are fairly far from harmless. Emperors, I kinda see your point, in theory you can just walk away, since they are average speed or whatever...but... Ghost Moths are Zot-Tier that appear in spider.

bcadren wrote:Ghost Moths are Zot-Tier that appear in spider.

Come on dude, there are so many good ways to kill ghost moths. You can empty your wands at them, you can quaff invis, you can kite them away from everything else in the vaults where they live, etc.

They're likely to be an unpleasant surprise the first time players run into them, which is okay, since lots of things are unpleasant surprises if you're not spoiled in crawl. But they're far from zot-tier.

archaeo wrote:
bcadren wrote:Ghost Moths are Zot-Tier that appear in spider.

Come on dude, there are so many good ways to kill ghost moths. You can empty your wands at them, you can quaff invis, you can kite them away from everything else in the vaults where they live, etc.

They're likely to be an unpleasant surprise the first time players run into them, which is okay, since lots of things are unpleasant surprises if you're not spoiled in crawl. But they're far from zot-tier.

They do occasionally appear in Zot, right? That makes them Zot tier in my book. (And more threatening than Ice Dragons.)

Ghost moths used to appear in portal vaults in mid-Lair. Those were fun. I only managed to clear them a couple times, but I was almost always able to escape alive.

Reptisaurus wrote:They do occasionally appear in Zot, right? That makes them Zot tier in my book.

I guess you also consider fire dragons, ice dragons, shadow dragons, storm dragons, golden dragons, tentacled monstrosities to be "Zot tier" then? This doesn't seem like a useful designation, given that fire/ice dragons appear in Lair vaults...

milks wrote:[Ghost moths] are the only permanently invisible monster with a ranged attack

Did vapours get removed?

bcadren wrote: Emperors, I kinda see your point, in theory you can just walk away, since they are average speed or whatever..

They are faster than a normal character. I've had to teleport away from them to reset many times.

jejorda2 wrote:Did vapours get removed?

learndb wrote:Invisible cloud of roiling death. And lightning. They wander around randomly, but eventually you will be on the business end of a lightning bolt. Top Tip: avoid. (or just play 0.15+, where they have been removed.)

Rast wrote:
bcadren wrote: Emperors, I kinda see your point, in theory you can just walk away, since they are average speed or whatever..

They are faster than a normal character. I've had to teleport away from them to reset many times.

They are speed 10. The only reason it could appear otherwise is due to energy randomization. Another reason to remove this pointless "feature", it just confuses people.

tabstorm wrote:
Rast wrote:
bcadren wrote: Emperors, I kinda see your point, in theory you can just walk away, since they are average speed or whatever..

They are faster than a normal character. I've had to teleport away from them to reset many times.

They are speed 10. The only reason it could appear otherwise is due to energy randomization. Another reason to remove this pointless "feature", it just confuses people.

Hrm. I had assumed he meant ghost moths, not the scorpions.

I meant emperor scorpions. Is that a recent change?

Maybe I got that impression because they are often zerk'ed in the spider:5 ending.

Emperor scorpions are still speed 10. You should be able to tell if they're berserking by the icon in tiles or the emperor scorpion (berserk) in the monster list. Otherwise it is just energy randomization.

archaeo wrote:
bcadren wrote:Ghost Moths are Zot-Tier that appear in spider.

Come on dude, there are so many good ways to kill ghost moths. You can empty your wands at them, you can quaff invis, you can kite them away from everything else in the vaults where they live, etc.

Even conjurations and summons kill them fairly well. Probably hexes too with a little luck or a scroll of vuln.

archaeo wrote:
bcadren wrote:Ghost Moths are Zot-Tier that appear in spider.

Come on dude, there are so many good ways to kill ghost moths. You can empty your wands at them, you can quaff invis, you can kite them away from everything else in the vaults where they live, etc.

They're likely to be an unpleasant surprise the first time players run into them, which is okay, since lots of things are unpleasant surprises if you're not spoiled in crawl. But they're far from zot-tier.

I don't know; I find moths of wrath and individual draconians (hell, even draconian packs) quite easy to deal with too. And those are certainly Zot-tier.

Not everything in Zot is a death cob, ancient lich or OoF.

most summons actually have trobules dealing with a perma invisible enemy however, the only reliable ones you're likely to have at that point are summon hound (good but capped at 1 and falling behind at that point) and mana vipers.

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