Remove "Fencer" from Long Blade titles


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Spider Stomper

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Post Wednesday, 21st October 2015, 00:32

Remove "Fencer" from Long Blade titles

Rapiers are short blades.

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duvessa, tedric

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Post Wednesday, 21st October 2015, 03:48

Re: Remove "Fencer" from Long Blade titles

In addition, the Short Blades titles 'Cutter' and 'Slicer' don't fit with the whole short-blades-don't-slice-hydra-heads-and-are-for-stabbing thing. 'Cutthroat' is an edge case.

Here are the current titles:
  Code:
{"Short Blades",   "Cutter",        "Slicer",          "Swashbuckler",    "Cutthroat",      "Politician"},
{"Long Blades",    "Slasher",       "Carver",          "Fencer",          "@Adj@ Blade",    "Swordmaster"}

Here's my suggestion for cleaning them up:
  Code:
{"Short Blades",   "Piercer",        "Fencer",          "Swashbuckler",    "Backstabber",      "Politician"},
{"Long Blades",    "Cutter",        "Slicer",          "Slasher",          "@Adj@ Blade",    "Swordmaster"}
Last edited by tedric on Wednesday, 21st October 2015, 05:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Slime Squisher

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Post Wednesday, 21st October 2015, 04:34

Re: Remove "Fencer" from Long Blade titles

How about we ditch the "long blades" and "short blades" names instead? Falchions are similar length to or even shorter than rapiers in real life. The real distinction is "heavy blades" vs "light blades," or perhaps better, "large swords" vs "small swords." The last works particularly well since a small sword is in fact a type of rapier (sort of between an epee and a rapier).

In fact, why not rename the categories as such, and rename short swords to small swords? Short sword is a vague term that's more a D&D-ism than a well-defined historical term - there are various types of swords that are short, but they aren't really grouped under the umbrella of 'short sword,' and various experts would have different definitions of what makes a sword 'short.'

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duvessa

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Post Wednesday, 21st October 2015, 05:50

Re: Remove "Fencer" from Long Blade titles

Meh, there's very little realism among Crawl weapons (or, like, any part of Crawl) so I don't think "heavy/light" or "large/small" is any better than "long/short". The point isn't to align game terms to the real world, it's to align game terms to other game terms and in-game mechanics.
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Slime Squisher

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Post Wednesday, 21st October 2015, 06:28

Re: Remove "Fencer" from Long Blade titles

The OP says that it doesn't make sense that 'Fencer' is used as a title for skill with weapons like long swords and scimitars, when in the real world the title more aptly applies to one skilled with rapiers.

I'm saying it doesn't make sense that rapiers are 'short blades' and falchions are 'long blades' when in the real world the former was in most cases longer.

These are both examples of terms in Crawl that are inconsistent with their real-world meanings. I'm suggesting that by using a system of sword classification that has *some* real-world basis we could get better internal consistency - and the division between heavy swords meant to penetrate armor and light swords meant to attack unarmored foes is a good one.

FWIW I also think 'Fencer' should be moved to the light/fast swords, though personally I wouldn't be sad to see all the old Stabbing titles go away completely. Yes I know SBl is involved in determining stabbing damage, but it's still weird to have a skill named after what is arguably a secondary effect (even if it's the reason most people train the skill). Some of them could be moved to Stealth perhaps, if people really think the Politician joke is worth saving.

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duvessa, tedric

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Post Wednesday, 21st October 2015, 07:43

Re: Remove "Fencer" from Long Blade titles

ion_frigate wrote:the division between heavy swords meant to penetrate armor and light swords meant to attack unarmored foes is a good one

Except that's not the distinction Crawl's mechanics make: Enemy AC doesn't affect stab bonus damage (according to LearnDB), so a "light" short blade is just as good for stabbing a heavily armored foo as an un-armored one; and adjusting for base damage, normal attacks with a "light" short blade and a "heavy" long blade are affected by enemy AC in exactly the same way.

If you really want to bikeshed these categories into perfect internal and external consistency, they should be called "stabbing blades" and "cutting blades". (And you'd probably have to rename some of the short blades, because it would remain weird that a "short sword" can't/doesn't cut things...)
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 21st October 2015, 09:19

Re: Remove "Fencer" from Long Blade titles

tedric wrote:
ion_frigate wrote:the division between heavy swords meant to penetrate armor and light swords meant to attack unarmored foes is a good one

Except that's not the distinction Crawl's mechanics make: Enemy AC doesn't affect stab bonus damage (according to LearnDB), so a "light" short blade is just as good for stabbing a heavily armored foo as an un-armored one; and adjusting for base damage, normal attacks with a "light" short blade and a "heavy" long blade are affected by enemy AC in exactly the same way.
You don't need to go as far as that, though. Daggers, small swords, and rapiers are all light weapons compared to falchions, longswords, "bastard swords", claymores, and katanas. That's unambiguous. The placement of cutlasses is debatable, though (doesn't help that they were invented a century or two later than the rest of these weapons...).

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Post Wednesday, 21st October 2015, 17:36

Re: Remove "Fencer" from Long Blade titles

I see that point, but given the rampant ambiguity of how swords are categorized in real life (and the fact that most Crawlers are probably unfamiliar with the actual history of these weapons) I still think the clearest nomenclature for the blade categories would refer to what the weapons actually do in the game. The common-knowledge association of swords with "cutting", and of smaller/shorter/lighter/whatever blades with "stabbing", would suggest something like:

  Code:
short blades -> stabbing blades
 long blades -> cutting blades

      dagger -> knife
 short sword -> dagger
 quick blade -> ice pick
     cutlass -> do we really even need cutlass anymore, i mean let's make the captain's cutlass a long/heavy/cutting blade already, or make it a rapier again and bring back the base stat override if we have to

...and if "knife" is too easily misconstrued as a "cutting" weapon because of what we typically do with them in the kitchen, the lowest-tier base type could just as easily become a "stake".

But all of this bikeshedding of the weapon names and their categories is a trickier argument than the titles, which IMO are more easily linked to game mechanics -- i.e. what your character is good at from practicing the skill -- and therefore should be split more clearly between "stabbing" words and "cutting" words.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Wednesday, 21st October 2015, 19:11

Re: Remove "Fencer" from Long Blade titles

It never ceases to amaze me just how vigorous and long winded the tavern can be at bikeshedcrafting.

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Rast, tedric

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Post Wednesday, 21st October 2015, 19:27

Re: Remove "Fencer" from Long Blade titles

and yet nobody appreciated my creative use of the words "edge" and "point"
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Post Wednesday, 21st October 2015, 20:59

Re: Remove "Fencer" from Long Blade titles

ebering wrote:It never ceases to amaze me just how vigorous and long winded the tavern can be at bikeshedcrafting.

I don't like the -crafting suffix here and think we should just refer to this as bikeshedding, in the future.

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Rast

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