Tactically Relevant Flight

[jejorda2]

From a recent thread,

We should think if we can make flying more tactically relevant

Does anyone have ideas on how to make flight tactically important?

[jejorda2]

As I said in that thread, I believe flying should change how positioning affects targeting.
Here are some examples of how it could work:

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@ogb
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If I'm standing on the ground, I can aim a single-target projectile at the orc. If I shoot at the goblin, I'll probably hit the orc instead. Because the bat is flying above the orc and the goblin, I can shoot at it. I won't ever hit the goblin or the orc if I'm aiming at the bat.

If I'm flying, I can aim a single-target projectile at the orc, the goblin, or the bat.

If there were a Tengu or fire drake in the bat's spot, it could fire at me over the heads of the orc and the goblin. I could also fire at it.

  Code:

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@bo
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On the ground, I can fire at the bat or the orc without being blocked by the other. Both can target me.
If I'm flying, the orc can't target me without risking hitting the bat, and the bat may block my shots at the orc.

If we want to add another wrinkle, let creatures of a certain size (Big? Huge?) fire over heads (and be fired at) as well. They would block/risk being hit by any projectiles, whether fired from air or ground.

Now summon butterflies only potentially blocks ranged attacks from flying creatures!

[jejorda2]

An alternative that would be simpler to explain and execute would be to have "high" and "low" projectiles that interact differently with flying targets.

You shoot a high projectile when you aim at something that is flying, and a low projectile when you aim at something that isn't flying.
High projectiles never hit normal sized enemies on the ground, and low projectiles never hit normal sized enemies in the air.
Huge creatures can be hit by high or low projectiles.

The disadvantage of this simplified system is that flight doesn't let you shoot over the head of one ground enemy to hit the one behind him. It means that flight is more of a toggle and less of an advantage with caveats.

Axes could be changed to only hit enemies that share an elevation with the primary target, but that isn't really needed. We could give smaller-than-normal creatures melee accuracy penalties and evasion bonuses against enemies of different elevations.

[archaeo]

The last thing Crawl needs is a z axis, frankly.

In my opinion, we remove flight altogether. Require "swimming" in deep water; all races that currently can't traverse or fly over water must swim instead, with an SH/EV malus and the inability to attack or cast spells. Make lava into tiles that do increasing amounts of damage the more time you spend in it, rF resists. Monsters will retain their behaviors and can still be drowned in either.

edited to add: After posting, I realized maybe I was a bit too brusque, for which I apologize. The issue I have with these proposals is that it's not at all clear to me how you would explain it to the player. These ideas would indeed make flight more relevant, but in a way that seems like it would be hard to express graphically and hard to explain to the player in real time.

[ion_frigate]

An easier way to do the 'z-axis' benefit would be to simply give the player smite targeting while flying. No need for any new/complicated mechanics. At least for ranged characters and some conjurers, this would make the consumable an interesting choice to use with e.g. orc priests: it lets you kill them more quickly, but doesn't stop them doing damage to you. It would be particularly interesting against monsters with Airstrike: you take additional damage from them in exchange for not having to chew through all the chaff they're surrounded with.

[jejorda2]

Yeah, simple smite targeting would work, too. I would argue for letting all ranged attacks have smite targeting against the player, too, in that case.

Would that mean you could also always smite target flying things, or is that taking it too far?

[edgefigaro]

I like flight. Shallow water is irritating terrain, but mostly irrelevant for popcorn. Sometimes you quaff !flight in shoals or swamp when things get tough. Working as intended. I don't understand why people want it to be removed. As-is is fine.

[MainiacJoe]

Yeah, simple smite targeting would work, too. I would argue for letting all ranged attacks have smite targeting against the player, too, in that case.

Would that mean you could also always smite target flying things, or is that taking it too far?

I like this line of thinking. Right now flying feels like all upside except you have to watch out for airstrike.

[Quazifuji]

I like this line of thinking. Right now flying feels like all upside except you have to watch out for airstrike.

What's wrong with flight being all upside? It's a very situational upside that requires either being a specific race, using a consumable, or wearing gear with a specific ego to obtain.

[duvessa]

Right now flying is nothing except airstrike vulnerability if you're not currently above water or lava...

[MainiacJoe]

Doesn't it give you a non-negligible EV bonus?

[tabstorm]

Only for tengu

[adozu]

does it still reduce damage from shatter?

[Sprucery]

does it still reduce damage from shatter?

Yes, to 1/3.