Combine Flight & Swiftness

[dpeg]

[This is a post by Darox on SomethingAwful.]

Suddenly you have a reason for carrying rings/potions of flight besides those rare niche situations. Swiftness has a cooldown period but the evocation already can't be recast and allowing potions to extend it is fine because they're consumables. Races with permanent flight are a thing, but making Gargoyles (and Black Draconians if you hate them) not get a speed bonus for their innate flight isn't going to end the world. It even gives swiftness a vulnerability to airstrike so the devs don't have a conniption about making the game easier.

His proposal is:
- the swiftness spell also gives flight (all else unchanged)
- flight potions give swiftness effect (including subsequent slower movement)

This came out of a typical SA-style flurry of complaints about how devs lost it and remove all the good things The idea itself is interesting, though.

[tedric]

Wouldn't it make more sense to remove Swiftness spell and have rings/potions of flight also give swiftness? I'm assuming the reasons for removing Flight as a spell are still valid (not that I really know what they are)

[Baldu3]

Flight can't even be used anymore for avoiding falling in shafts booooohohohohooooooo.

This idea seems pretty interesting though.

[Lasty]

The idea of tying Flight and Swiftness together seems pretty decent to me. I haven't looked into it, but durations could be an issue: Swiftness has a pretty short duration, which can be fatal for Flight; Swiftness's duration can't be extended, but Flight's can (with the potion).

[ontoclasm]

What purpose does flight (in any capacity) serve? It's almost impossible to drown nowadays and flight potions etc. are quite common, so all it does is pretend to gate you off from things and then not actually do that. At the very worst you go "welp, don't have flight" and then come back when you do.

[CanOfWorms]

flight potions etc. are quite common

Mummies :v

But more seriously, you'd use flight if you're using invisibility in Shoals and generally to avoid shallow water penalties.

[njvack]

I think drowning should simply not be a thing.

But yeah, it's nice to not splash around in shallow water.

[jejorda2]

There have certainly been times when I wondered if I was right to give up my +5 AC ring or what have you for a flight ring in Swamp or Shoals, so flight as it is now is already valuable in my book. I have used flight potions for the stealth boost on stabbers before.

Does this turn the somewhat common boots of flying into the rare and coveted boots of running?

A "You fly slowly" mutation that negates the flying movement boost for some could exist. I'm not sure it should, but it could.

[dpeg]

What purpose does flight (in any capacity) serve? It's almost impossible to drown nowadays and flight potions etc. are quite common, so all it does is pretend to gate you off from things and then not actually do that. At the very worst you go "welp, don't have flight" and then come back when you do.

I know the shortcomings of what I'm going to say, but someone has to do it: as long as Crawl has (deep) water and lava, there needs to be a way to get across. This is not strictly true: more precisely, as long as water/lava separate floor segments, we need some form of flight.

Removing water and lava is an option, but that'd entail cutting two branches, looking at a million vaults, and a lot more follow-up work. I really don't think it's worth it.

The current situation is not broken, it just suffers from roguelike tradition. However, we could think about improve matters, with lava and water in the game. Shallow water giving flight some tactical value is a decent start. There is a problem that the strategic value of flight is completely countered by the ubiquity of teleportation, but that could be addressed, if we wanted to: we could rule that teleports choose a location in the same connected floor component. (I know that this forces follow-up changes as well, about not stranding, and digging.)
Another option would be to declare that players can swim (say slowly and inefficiently), making flight about a tactical advantage only. Just some ideas.

Darox' idea is good for the time being, I'd say. Alternatively, we could simply start with a potion of Swiftness.

[tabstorm]

I do not think just making teleportation preserve terrain type will improve much. You learn the rule "Do not fight in shallow water" fairly quickly, and it is not too hard to avoid doing so except when you are fighting water nymphs, and this can be avoided by standing on the stairs (Here is another mechanic that is not that easy to figure out, but can be relevant). How are you going to communicate this teleportation mechanic to a player anyway, just have them figure it out or have it in the description somewhere? What about if you are flying over lava - normal teleport will not put you over lava, but this change would make it put you over only lava? This is a bit unintuitive, since you learn quickly that teleport puts you in a random map square. Why not just ditch flight altogether and avoid more mechanical complications?

Also, I sort of like the idea of a potion of quickness that gives the equivalent of old-swiftness and maybe removing the spell.

[duvessa]

What purpose does flight (in any capacity) serve? It's almost impossible to drown nowadays and flight potions etc. are quite common, so all it does is pretend to gate you off from things and then not actually do that. At the very worst you go "welp, don't have flight" and then come back when you do.

I know the shortcomings of what I'm going to say, but someone has to do it: as long as Crawl has (deep) water and lava, there needs to be a way to get across. This is not strictly true: more precisely, as long as water/lava separate floor segments, we need some form of flight.

So as long as deep water and lava exist, they have to do nothing? Why not just remove them then?

[byrel]

So as long as deep water and lava exist, they have to do nothing? Why not just remove them then?

Flight doesn't mean water does nothing; for instance there are certain Ice cave layouts where deep water can serve as a shortcut to the loot; If you've found flight (it isn't as common as some people here are making out) you can dodge the boss. The water does something; it presents a consumable vs. potential loot gamble, and an indirect 'creative' solution to a gameplay problem. That's good. I'll admit good design is much more rare than deep water, but that doesn't mean that flight renders water useless.

[Sar]

typical SA-style flurry of complaints about how devs lost it and remove all the good things

Et tu, SA?

It's almost impossible to drown nowadays

Is that a challenge? I drown all the time because reading messages is for turnips.

Edit: I don't think "being a flavourful obstacle that can be overcome with a potion or an item" is "doing nothing" but then again, what do I know.

[nago]

+1 to have a consumable acting like swiftness - maybe like old one with removal of the spell

[dpeg]

I agree that we don't want Flight back as a spell. So let's not slap flying on the Swiftness spell.

We should think if we can make flying more tactically relevant, i.e. not just over shallow water. Giving swiftness to the flight potion might be one way. Drawback: different effect of spell and potion. (I understand how some of you arrive at removing Swiftness spell here.)

[jejorda2]

We should think if we can make flying more tactically relevant

Flying should change how targeting works.

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If I'm standing on the ground, I can aim a single-target projectile at the orc. If I shoot at the goblin, I'll probably hit the orc instead. Because the bat is flying above the orc and the goblin, I can shoot at it. I won't ever hit the goblin or the orc if I'm aiming at the bat.

If I'm flying, I can aim a single-target projectile at the orc, the goblin, or the bat.

If there were a Tengu or fire drake in the bat's spot, it could fire at me over the heads of the orc and the goblin. I could also fire at it.

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@bo
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On the ground, I can fire at the bat or the orc without being blocked by the other. Both can target me.
If I'm flying, the orc can't target me without risking hitting the bat, and the bat may block my shots at the orc.

If we want to add another wrinkle, let creatures of a certain size (Big? Huge?) fire over heads (and be fired at) as well. They would block/risk being hit by any projectiles, whether fired from air or ground.

Now summon butterflies only potentially blocks ranged attacks from flying creatures!

[bananaken]

I agree that we don't want Flight back as a spell. So let's not slap flying on the Swiftness spell.

We should think if we can make flying more tactically relevant, i.e. not just over shallow water. Giving swiftness to the flight potion might be one way. Drawback: different effect of spell and potion. (I understand how some of you arrive at removing Swiftness spell here.)

Actually, I really like flight as a spell and the convenience it provides. Not having it means I have to potentially rely on evocable flight which is annoying. Removing flight altogether feels like a step back with respect to how Crawl currently works with flight mechanics and situations that call for its use. I'd much rather see flight mechanics (and/or the flight spell) have more trade-offs, which includes "slapping on" flying on the Swiftness spell

[ontoclasm]

"It's nice to have" and "it's convenient" are not reasons to keep a thing. Is flight fun? Does it have a meaningful impact on how anyone plays? It's a legacy mechanic that we inherited from the bad old days of simulationism, that's all.

If it's too much work to remove, that's one thing, but "bad, but too hard to remove" is vastly different from "good."

e: For clarity, I want all flight removed, not just the spell.

[bananaken]

"It's nice to have" and "it's convenient" are not reasons to keep a thing.

I mention the convenience aspect since it provides a renewable source of flight that can be re-cast if needed. I think it's a valid reason to keep it if only because of why it's convenient. Currently, if you don't have flight, you can have potions, a ring of flight, an artifact with flight or boots of flying (unless this has been removed already, too). If you're stuck with a ring of flight, it means you have to swap into the ring, cast flight, possibly wait for it to expire and recast (since you can't renew it), etc. Evocable flight does nothing interesting for me other than make me spend more turns swapping items around and makes things feel more tedious than they need to be.

Is flight fun?

Flight is fun when it allows me to use terrain to my advantage without having to rely on more tedious sources. I already like using gargoyles a lot, so using those + Tengu would be my choices even more now.

It's a legacy mechanic that we inherited from the bad old days of simulationism, that's all.

If it's too much work to remove, that's one thing, but "bad, but too hard to remove" is vastly different from "good."

I can see how flight in general could need some kind of re-form and how it's not an easy problem to solve, I just don't see how removing flight spell is a good start. This doesn't sound more fun or interesting. Flight spell was always "I'm glad I have this option at least", since other options tend to be inconvenient and annoying.

The commit for this change also doesn't indicate that this is part of any kind of flight reform. I just don't see how this is a good change.

[jejorda2]

The commit for this change also doesn't indicate that this is part of any kind of flight reform. I just don't see how this is a good change.

What commit are you referring to? I don't see any commits after July that refer to flight or swiftness.

The good change that is proposed is that if potions of flight also give swiftness, then they have greater tactical value. Currently, I drop potions of flight and pick them up when I need to get some loot that they help me reach. I used them tactically back when they granted resistance to some electrical attacks.

[bananaken]

The commit for this change also doesn't indicate that this is part of any kind of flight reform. I just don't see how this is a good change.

What commit are you referring to? I don't see any commits after July that refer to flight or swiftness.

The good change that is proposed is that if potions of flight also give swiftness, then they have greater tactical value. Currently, I drop potions of flight and pick them up when I need to get some loot that they help me reach. I used them tactically back when they granted resistance to some electrical attacks.

Sorry, I meant the commit to remove flight spell several months ago: http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a= ... 92877ddc7f

Basically, having flight spell's convenience with other tradeoffs sounds better than removing flight spell. This can come from adding swiftness, light contamination, or some other drawback. You can also have potions with swiftness + flight for example (and be renamed), flight spell could just give flight with contamination, etc.