Suggestion: Change transmuter starting spellbook (slightly)

[Siegurt]

So I was looking at the starting Transmuter spellbook today, and I thought that compared to a lot of starting kits it:

1. Doesn't provide as many tools to get through the first couple levels.
2. It provides an end game worthy weapon.

I think both of these things make transmuter a worse background than it otherwise could be.

My suggestion is fairly simple, remove blade hands, and add stoneskin to the transmuter book. Now that stoneskin doesn't rely on earth, but spellpower for it's AC value, it's just as useful for someone with high transmutations as it is for someone with high earth skills. Giving a transmuter more survivability in the early game would make it a lot more enjoyable to play IMHO. (It doesn't stack with spider form or ice form, but it does stack with beastly appendage, which is good for a long while for a good number of transmuters)

On the flip side, blade hands being *so* effective and available sort of shoe horns transmuters into a particular play style "rushing for blade hands" has a similar quality for me as "rushing for invisibility" had with the prior enchanter book. Having blade hands be less reliable and adapting to some of the other possibilities that you could get for a later transmutation would make transmuters more interesting IMHO.

[Sandman25]

Sticks to snakes is an excellent spell (level 2) to get through first levels, I don't see how Stoneskin will help (level 2 too and it does not stack with level 3 Spider Form or level 4 Ice Form). If you want to remove Blade Hands (level 5), I would vote for Passwall (level 3), it is a nice escape tool and early dungeon is full of rock walls.

[Siegurt]

Sticks to snakes is an excellent spell (level 2) to get through first levels, I don't see how Stoneskin will help (level 3 and it does not stack with level 3 Spider Form or level 4 Ice Form). If you want to remove Blade Hands (level 5), I would vote for Passwall (level 3), it is a nice escape tool and early dungeon is full of rock walls.

Yes S2S is an excellent spell (even better now that you don't have to wield arrows) Stoneskin gives some protection during the part of the game where you're still using beastly appendage, Of course I usually take my time getting towards spider form, I prefer my transmuter's to be more robust and I don't like to rush the transmuter spellbook at all (It's usually not until after the lair I even memorize blade hands) so I end up using beastly appendage and S2S for quite a while.

[mopl]

Stoneskin gives some protection during the part of the game where you're still using beastly appendage, Of course I usually take my time getting towards spider form, I prefer my transmuter's to be more robust and I don't like to rush the transmuter spellbook at all (It's usually not until after the lair I even memorize blade hands) so I end up using beastly appendage and S2S for quite a while.

That's probably not the general Tm conduct...
I've played some Tm and always rush to Spider Form. It provides a great EV, that help with being less robust.

[mps]

I don't get this. Appendage + snakes doesn't get you through early d? Do you just not use the snakes?

As far as I can tell, guaranteed blade hands is the whole point of the Tm background. Without that, why wouldn't you go IE or EE if you want to transition into late game transmutations? This is a proposal to make an already bad background even more undesirable by denying it its niche.

[mopl]

If early dungeon is D:1-2, the answer is yes.

Then SF + snakes carry you to Lair.

[bel]

Tm start would be a bit easier, though I am not sure how much. Usually, I get spider form as fast as I can, and it doesn't take long (assuming one is fine with 20-30% fail). I am not sure I would use the spell levels to learn stoneskin, because spider form is just so good. Venom branded attack is great, and it provides very nice EV.

Removing blade hands would be a very big nerf. No question about it.

So, I would think Tm would become harder with this change overall, which is the wrong direction for Tm to go. So, in general, I am opposed to this.

(btw, re: sandman's comment, stoneskin is lvl 2, not 3)

[KoboldLord]

I would support Blade Hands being taken out of starting books with no compensation. Transmuter could use an early game buff, but Blade Hands is completely irrelevant to the early game so that's not really an argument for keeping an endgame spell in a starting book.

[onget]

Choosing the Tm and other hybrid background, as long as you have not played the OP species in early game, is one of the worst of choice, need buff.

[jejorda2]

With stoneskin and snakes, you could just about add a weapon choice to Tm and let players ignore the later forms in the starting book. You would hope to find petrification, statue form, irradiation, and passwall to get more use of your skills.

[Zooty]

Let me just point that blade hands is only in Book of Changes (and random books). So you should probably add it to some other book.

[Siegurt]

Let me just point that blade hands is only in Book of Changes (and random books). So you should probably add it to some other book.

Definitely would
Want it added to some other book of it was removed

[Berder]

I don't get this. Appendage + snakes doesn't get you through early d? Do you just not use the snakes?

As far as I can tell, guaranteed blade hands is the whole point of the Tm background. Without that, why wouldn't you go IE or EE if you want to transition into late game transmutations? This is a proposal to make an already bad background even more undesirable by denying it its niche.

This exactly.

[Sandman25]

I agree with OP that end game weapon should not be in starting book. With other book backgrounds you depend on books (and to a lesser extend on weapons/body armour-robe of archmagi), sometimes you even join Sif/Veh/Kiku to get the spells, here you don't need anything (no weapon, no arhcmagi, no spells), you can join any god you want (except Trog maybe) and it is bad from design perspective IMHO.
Early game for Tm is unique enough to justify existence of the background, I don't see how IE/EE are related. IE/FE/AE/EE/Wz/Cj are closer to each other than to Tm as long as Conjuration school and bolts (and spells as ranged attack in general) exist.

[Jeremiah]

What about replacing Blade Hands with a level 4-5 Transmutation/Air spell that gives an elec branded attack (with damage or chance of triggering dependant on spellpower).

Then make Blade Hands level 6 and put it in a different book (Book of Transfigurations?)

[Siegurt]

What about replacing Blade Hands with a level 4-5 Transmutation/Air spell that gives an elec branded attack (with damage or chance of triggering dependant on spellpower).

Then make Blade Hands level 6 and put it in a different book (Book of Transfigurations?)

I don't think there is anything wrong with the spell as it is now, I just don't think it is good in a starting spell book and think it needs moved elsewhere (similar to how invis was moved out of the en starting spell book)

Stoneskin was an attempt to get transmuters out of what I percieve to be a difficult patch before they get Spider form on line, I certainly feel more strongly that blade hands makes transmuters less interesting than they would be without it.

[Sar]

I don't think there is anything wrong with the spell as it is now

Well, it's noticeably better than level 6 and 7 spells of this school in many situations. That could be argued as being a bad thing since one would expect spells get more powerful with the level increase, not less!

[tasonir]

Sadly I think that without blade hands there wouldn't be much mid-game power in the transmutations book. I realize starting spell books aren't meant to last terribly long, but without blade hands I wouldn't really see the incentive to train transmutations on a transmuter past level 5 or so, which seems a bit too light for a background's namesake skill. Maybe it's just because I'm not terribly fond of spider/ice form, which I realize other people use more often than I do, but they are outclassed by higher spells in most circumstances, especially now that ice form/ozo's has no special bonus.

Imho it would be nice to have some way to give backgrounds a second book at some point, although I doubt it'd have much traction. Something like transmuters get transfigurations at level 14, ice elementalists get the book of ice, etc etc. A lot of book backgrounds can't stay on theme late game without their second book, but I realize crawl would rather have those characters adapt and change 'class' rather than giving them a free book.

[Berder]

I am opposed to any change that would nerf magic and make transmuter even weaker than it already is. It's already perhaps the single weakest background. That means I want Blade Hands to stay in the book and stay level 5. Otherwise transmuter would become yet another background forced into an early-dungeon transition to boring vanilla melee, alongside hunter, arcane marksman, venom mage, etc.

[archaeo]

I mean, everything else aside, one of the biggest problems with Blade Hands is the degree to which it encourages players to just stick with "boring vanilla melee," as far as I can tell. It's by far the least "transformative" of the tmut spells, with the fewest drawbacks in exchange for some of the most effective advantages. The fact that it's a spell you cast instead of a weapon you find doesn't really change the fact that, right after you learn Blade Hands, you're playing the game in a manner indistinguishable from other melee dudes.

[nago]

That. I'd like to see bh removed for being not a form but just a weapon which need magic skill, has some weird rules and is utterly unbalanced, in favour of another form.
Unfortunately I've no good idea for that

[Sandman25]

I mean, everything else aside, one of the biggest problems with Blade Hands is the degree to which it encourages players to just stick with "boring vanilla melee," as far as I can tell. It's by far the least "transformative" of the tmut spells, with the fewest drawbacks in exchange for some of the most effective advantages. The fact that it's a spell you cast instead of a weapon you find doesn't really change the fact that, right after you learn Blade Hands, you're playing the game in a manner indistinguishable from other melee dudes.

This. Blade Hands really encourages pure melee.
Wizmode character to prove it:
Normal form:

  Code:

l - Bolt of Cold          Conj/Ice       56 (200)     2%          6    380

Grey

BH:

  Code:

l - Bolt of Cold          Conj/Ice       56 (200)     24%         6    380

Red

[Berder]

BH is a level 5 spell, and therefore you do actually want to skill transmutations and perhaps use wizardry/not wear heavy armor. It is actually magic. This is its virtue when it comes to having Tm not just be Monk Lite. P.S. magic does not mean ranged.

I'd favor removing the anti-wizardry part of BH, as it doesn't make a lot of sense anyway. Really, you can cast just fine while transformed into a spider or a dragon, but pointy hands are the dealbreaker?

[Siegurt]

BH is a level 5 spell, and therefore you do actually want to skill transmutations and perhaps use wizardry/not wear heavy armor. It is actually magic. This is its virtue when it comes to having Tm not just be Monk Lite.

I'd favor removing the anti-wizardry part of BH, as it doesn't make a lot of sense anyway. Really, you can cast just fine while transformed into a spider or a dragon, but pointy hands are the dealbreaker?

Other forms also have anti-wizardy.

[Berder]

Other forms also have anti-wizardy.

Not nearly so much.

[archaeo]

BH is a level 5 spell, and therefore you do actually want to skill transmutations and perhaps use wizardry/not wear heavy armor. It is actually magic. This is its virtue when it comes to having Tm not just be Monk Lite. P.S. magic does not mean ranged.

I'd compare it to using Spectral Weapon. Both are spells designed around buffing a melee skill, but while Spectral Weapon creates several notable differences in how you play, particularly w/r/t positioning, BH is just "now you kill dudes faster." It has a few melded slots and restrictions, and it makes you worse at casting magic, but none of those things actually affect how you play the game; even the fact that you'll wear lighter armor through the midgame doesn't really move the needle very far.

I don't think magic needs to be ranged, fwiw, I just think that it should generally lead to gameplay that isn't indistinguishable from an average melee-focused character.

[mps]

I don't see this objection. Your skill distribution is different from a vanilla melee dude, your development is different over the course of the game, and instead of switching among different weapons (or not for plain UC melee), you switch among different forms -- and blade hands is quite different from other forms. It doesn't make sense to look at a spell so tightly bound up in a particular background in isolation the way you are. You have to look at how it fits into a bigger picture.

[archaeo]

Your skill distribution may be different, but does that really matter when the player ends up in the same place? Tm has a unique style of play right up until the point when you get Blade Hands, after which it plays identically to most other melee-focused hybrids. There are few reasons to use lower-level forms that aren't BH, and training more tmut to get higher-level forms is problematic because they all have significant drawbacks that BH doesn't have.

[Wahaha]

The strongest transmutation spell should not be level 5.

[Siegurt]

Well, to be fair, spider form and ice form are sufficiently good to make it through the lair, even more so if you find Ozocubu's armour (What if OA replaced blade hands in the transmuter starting book instead of Stoneskin? I mean it'd be a little weird, since it's not a transmutation spell, but it synergizes well, and would certainly help their early game survivability)

In terms of power, I would rate blade hands for a equal to invis for an enchanter, to a battle axe/great sword for a fighter, or to Bolt of fire/cold for an enchanter (perhaps surpassing those slightly, since it scales better) Which to me means it's a thing you should be forced to *find* rather than something you should just start with.

[Sandman25]

Ozo Armour should be changed to Ice/Transmutations (I don't see why Stoneskin is Transmutations and OA is not, Charms school can take the nerf). Then it could replace BH indeed.

[Berder]

Your skill distribution may be different, but does that really matter when the player ends up in the same place? Tm has a unique style of play right up until the point when you get Blade Hands, after which it plays identically to most other melee-focused hybrids.

First of all the only major difference between BH and other forms (as it relates to your complaint here) is that BH doesn't meld most armor. Even so, your argument might be seductive if the alternative being presented to BH wasn't "nothing!"

Here's something I could support, that would address your concern: make Dragon Form level 5, and Blade Hands level 6, and let Dragon Form take the place of Blade Hands in the starting book. Dragon form could be made slightly weaker (but not weaker than current BH). That way transmuters' main form would meld armor.

lets make worst background worse: the thread

so true.
Also don't forget that ice form/ozo, as well as statue form/stoneskin, were recently nerfed.

(What if OA replaced blade hands in the transmuter starting book instead( of Stoneskin? I mean it'd be a little weird, since it's not a transmutation spell, but it synergizes well, and would certainly help their early game survivability)

Maybe if ice form + ozo were de-nerfed...
The other problem is fiery enemies/volcano, against which you have to use spider form, but your equipment is melded so you can't get rF from your armour.

In terms of power, I would rate blade hands for a equal to invis for an enchanter, to a battle axe/great sword for a fighter, or to Bolt of fire/cold for an enchanter (perhaps surpassing those slightly, since it scales better) Which to me means it's a thing you should be forced to *find* rather than something you should just start with.

Funny you should mention battle axes/great swords when the dungeon is littered with them. What a challenge, to find a battle axe when half the wight packs, half the ice caves, half the volcanos, and lots of orcs carry them around. Also Trog gives them to you and you can use Acquirement to get them reliably. Basically the situation with finding weapons vs. finding spells is not even close to fair. Getting a specific level 5 spell is far harder/less likely than getting a solid endgame weapon.

[Siegurt]

In terms of power, I would rate blade hands for a equal to invis for an enchanter, to a battle axe/great sword for a fighter, or to Bolt of fire/cold for an enchanter (perhaps surpassing those slightly, since it scales better) Which to me means it's a thing you should be forced to *find* rather than something you should just start with.

Funny you should mention battle axes/great swords when the dungeon is littered with them. What a challenge, to find a battle axe when half the wight packs, half the ice caves, half the volcanos, and lots of orcs carry them around. Also Trog gives them to you and you can use Acquirement to get them reliably. Basically the situation with finding weapons vs. finding spells is not even close to fair. Getting a specific level 5 spell is far harder/less likely than getting a solid endgame weapon.

That's true, and if you needed a specific spell to complete the game as a transmuter the situation wouldn't be very fair (that'd be like a fighter only being able to complete the game if they got an exec axe of pain or something) However you can use any of several other transmutations (Statue form, Dragon form, Hydra form, Irradiate), or poison or ice spells, or even no additional spells at all, since unarmed combat is pretty damn good, and ice form is also pretty good.

The point of taking BH out of the transmuter's starting kit would be to force adaptation and diversity at the very stage of the game where every other starting kit does so, and at a time when you can count on having some sort of drops of some sort given to you by the RNG.

I would suggest that if BH does get dropped from the transmuter starting spellbook it be added to a couple of appropriate spellbooks, as I feel like late-game transmuter spells are currently slightly more rare than say, late game fire elemental or ice elemental spells.

[Sprucery]

Ozo Armour should be changed to Ice/Transmutations (I don't see why Stoneskin is Transmutations and OA is not, Charms school can take the nerf). Then it could replace BH indeed.

Good idea. Obviously the difference is that Stoneskin hardens your skin, whereas OA creates icy armour. So OA could be changed to "Iceskin".

[Sar]

I just want to point out that Tm is considered a weak background because of their early game. Nerfing or removing BH won't make their early game any worse. In fact, for some players it would only make it better, as rushing to BH is a common newbie mistake!

[adozu]

if anything i think the issue with early/early-mid game transmuters is that they need a huge skill spread, you need at least unarmed and tmut of course (else why play a transmuter) but then you might want some defense, so there goes dodge and fighting, some spellcasting maybe because hey spells and then you can get good use of a few levels in poison/ice... but at the end of the day you'll only have ok-ish melee and ok-ish EV.

then you get boring hands ans things get better but i really would want hydra form or dragon form if they were actually more viable and accessible because boring form is boring.

imho background would be 10x more fun if there were more mid-range transmutations (ooze form, drake form, harpy form, balrug form, elemental form, sigmund form...) instead of a single catch-all that makes everything after it (except possibly statue form) obsolete.

early game help could probably amount to slightly better base int so you feel less pressured for spell training i guess?

[mps]

imo, the OP identifies an issue and a nonissue, namely that early game Tm sucks -- pretty uncontroversial -- and the starting book allows you a guaranteed path to endgame quality melee -- this is silly: the skald, berserker, and AK backgrounds do the same.

I think you can address the first issue without preemptively compromising on the second. I don't see why stoneskin couldn't be added to the book of changes without removing blade hands, for one. The passwall idea is also reasonable. Either one would add plenty of value and wouldn't be a balance problem.

[Sar]

The issue is, once again, that a level 5 spell is better than level 6 and 7 spells in most situations. An I am not talking about "bolt of fire is better than firestorm" kinda thing when the spell is better but not enough to justify the investment. You can have a character able to cast BH, SF and DF and BH will be the better choice still.

[mps]

No, that's not an issue from the OP, that's some tangent people got on. And it's ridiculous. Shadow creatures is better than a lot of higher level summons. Spectral weapon is better than all other hexes and charms, except haste. Haste is better than all other charms.

If you're trying to convince me SF should be a level 5 spell, though, you're pushing on an open door. DF is not straightforwardly worse than BH. If it were level 5, it'd be overpowered.

[Sar]

Shadow Creatures is a really fun ability with unique mechanic but I am not sure it should be a spell at all. I don't like the rod version of it though, because it misses the thing that actually makes SCreatures fun (and overpowered) - taking the monsters from branch spawn lists.

Also Death's Door feels suitably powerful for an ultimate Charm - the question is "Can you afford it?" not "Does it even make sense to get it if you already have Spectral Weapon?".

[nago]

No, that's not an issue from the OP, that's some tangent people got on. And it's ridiculous. Shadow creatures is better than a lot of higher level summons. Spectral weapon is better than all other hexes and charms, except haste. Haste is better than all other charms.

If you're trying to convince me SF should be a level 5 spell, though, you're pushing on an open door. DF is not straightforwardly worse than BH. If it were level 5, it'd be overpowered.

This reply is blatantly stupid: all those spells has unique effects and they're clearly different from each others and don't overlap in practically nothing, and can't be compared even powerwise.

e.g. Haste is the best charms spell for practically everyone, because it's good in every moment but that still doesn't mean Death's Door is even stronger in some circumstances, and in some other is extremely better because being invincible is better than being dead. Because you know, they do totally different things. Furthermore, most of time I'd like to be with DD and be hasted, and not only with DD.
Or, for example, spectral weapon is good, but tukima's too... and in most of cases I like to use them both in same fight, not only one because then the other is the same just worse. Because, you know, they do totally different things.
I'd could explain the same for shadow creatures, or probably whatever other spells you could list (expect maybe conjuration and even in that school there are decent differences).

On the other hand, HF, DF and BH all do the same thing and all the little gimmick of each spell don't change a shit about that. Sure, there are some cases where HF and DF are better than BH (some monstrous races, and I suppose rf++ is nice in zot if no other way to get it is avaiable), but barring that there no reason to use them over BH except that they're fun.

[mps]

@nago: You guys keep shifting the conversation.

Listen, I get that some people don't like to make a judgement on the totality of a thing and somehow get offended when other people feel comfortable doing so. I get that. But if you think that tukima's dance is in the same league as spectral weapon, don't talk to me about stupid, bud.

I'm not here to defend the overall design of the transmutations school. On some level, I agree, it's less than brilliant. That doesn't mean you should gut it. The problem isn't blade hands, the problem is the higher level spells that evidently don't deliver enough value for the investment they require. I frankly can't understand how you got so worked up about this when your last sentence seems to concede that there are cases where you'd use HF or DF (and I'm sure you'd agree SF) even when you have BH available anyway. Necromutation seems to be lost in this discussion, but w/e.

Now I guess we can get to the next iteration of the tavern goal post transit service.

[Sar]

High-UC BH damage is only second to DF damage (outside of stabs), it surpasses top tier holy wrath two-handers vs. demons. But clearly the issue is that SF and DF are not better enough. Well, SF isn't better at all, DF does have better damage, but ironically SF still has more of a niche at helping some low-defense races get better defenses - DF offers you overkill++ (compared to BH being just good old overkill) but tanks your defenses in exchange.

[nago]

But if you think that tukima's dance is in the same league as spectral weapon, don't talk to me about stupid, bud.

Actually in many circumstances and against many critters tukima can be much better.

when your last sentence seems to concede that there are cases where you'd use HF or DF (and I'm sure you'd agree SF) even when you have BH available anyway. Necromutation seems to be lost in this discussion, but w/e.

Cats, octopode, possibly Dr and maybe stupid combo like OgTm and TrTm if you really want to do and consider them. Chei perhaps. In this moment it's all I can think, but probably I'm forgetting something. Not so much, from my point of view.
For me SF is sufficiently differentiated from BH to not be included in the explanation above. But in short, but for all other kind of reasons SF is shit 98% of times (and races) compared to BH so yes there is another lv6 double school lowut spell which is worse than BH.
And NecroMut isn't even considered unless we decide to start to compare if it's better to use triple sword instead of wearing the lost crown of torment or if it's better elec brand or having rn+.

[mps]

High-UC BH damage is only second to DF damage (outside of stabs), it surpasses holy wrath top tier holy wrath two-handers vs. demons. But clearly the issue is that SF and DF are not better enough. Well, SF isn't better at all, DF does have better damage, but ironically SF still has more of a niche at helping some low-defense races get better defenses - DF offers you overkill++ (compared to BH being just good old overkill) but tanks your defenses in exchange.

Yeah it sounds like you guys are down on DF and HF, which I think is a popular position. Maybe devs could be convinced to make the two of them stronger alternatives to BH, but I think that's another thread, y'know.

[Berder]

I'd like to help dispel the myth that transmuters are only weak due to their early game.

  Code:

<halberd> !woniflair tenpercenters tm
<Sequell> tenpercenters (tm) has won after reaching lair 208 out of 523 times: 40%
<halberd> !woniflair tenpercenters
<Sequell> tenpercenters has won after reaching lair 4832 out of 8952 times: 54%

(tenpercenters are greatplayers with winrate>10%, used to represent decent players who don't speedrun too much)
As you can see, even once the early game is over, transmuters appear much weaker than the average. In fact, if I sort all classes by their woniflair ratio among tenpercenters, transmuter comes in dead last.

I could speculate on why that is. Perhaps it's because tm splits their stats between int and dex/str so they have less ev/ac than other melee specialists. Perhaps it's because tm splits their skills between physical and magic, so they have worse physical skills than other melee specialists.

Is it due to one player speedrunning and splatting a lot? perunasaurus had the most transmuter deaths at xl>10 among tenpercenters, and if I exclude him, Tm still comes in last. Is it due to Tms taking Chei more often? If I exclude Chei as well, Tm still comes in last.

In conclusion - Tm needs bladehands, otherwise they'd be even weaker than they already are going into the midgame.

[Sandman25]

Berder,

Could you please calculate average AC/EV for different backgrounds who died after Lair if it is not hard? I think Tm have the worst AC/EV among melee classes and they do lack ranged attack usually.

[adozu]

maybe there could be something like a cyclops form, able to throw items (using transmutations instead of throwing possibly) to give it a ranged option.

same could apply to something like centaur form (gaining bow skill based on transmutation) or some monster like manticore form that would have a ranged ability. the proficiency with the ranged attack could also simply come from spellpower.

actually the more i think about it a manticore form with a ranged volley attack (based on spellpower and stats) that for a little bit of mp (1-2 per use? so you don't have unlimited uses) offers an alternative to pure melee (while still retaining ok-ish melee but inferior to pure melee forms) could go a long way in helping the background overall.

[Berder]

Berder,

Could you please calculate average AC/EV for different backgrounds who died after Lair if it is not hard? I think Tm have the worst AC/EV among melee classes and they do lack ranged attack usually.

Instead of looking at deaths it's better to look at milestones for Tm vs milestones for other melee backgrounds, because if you look only at characters who died you're going to see defenses that are worse than normal for the xl. That would penalize Tm more than it would penalize other classes because Tm died more frequently.

I'll also restrict to xl11-14. I'd like to look only at one milestone from each game but I don't know how to do that, so we can just trust that it will average out the same. The sample size is pretty large (like 500+ games for each query) so that should be ok.
edit:whoops, following is incorrect

Spoiler: show

  Code:

<halberd> !lm tenpercenters xl>10 xl<15 class=fi|gl|as|be x=avg(ac),avg(ev)
<Sequell> 17794 milestones for tenpercenters (xl>10 xl<15 class=fi|gl|as|be): avg(ac)=12.7; avg(ev)=9.93
<halberd> !lm tenpercenters xl>10 xl<15 class=tm x=avg(ac),avg(ev)
<Sequell> 4924 milestones for tenpercenters (xl>10 xl<15 class=tm): avg(ac)=7.98; avg(ev)=12.38

So you see, transmuters typically have slightly worse defenses than fi|gl|be|as between xl11-14 (i.e. in lair), and more ev than ac. However, note also that the other warrior backgrounds are likely to have some GDR along with their AC, so their higher AC translates to substantially higher combat effectiveness.

  Code:

>>> crawl.drf(13,10,0,crawl.yak,0.28)
4.052298263534219
>>> crawl.drf(8,12,0,crawl.yak,0)
2.6383506982930616


That's a function I wrote a while ago for generating my ac/ev/sh effectiveness charts. drf is "damage reduction factor," and the first function call tells you that with 13 AC, 10 EV, and GDR 0.28 (like scale mail), on average you will divide incoming damage from a yak by 4.05. That's similar to the fi|gl|as|be query above. The second function call tells you that with 8 AC, 12 EV, and GDR 0, you will divide incoming damage from a yak by 2.64. That's like the Tm query above, and obviously it's much worse defenses.

[Sandman25]

Thanks, Berder!
So we see that Tm defenses are not much worse than defenses of other melee classes at XL 11-14. Is it possible that Tm are fine in Lair and start having problems later (in Orc or Lair branches, for example)? My experience with Tm shows that they are quite powerful in Lair, Ice Form is really great with rPois, increased HP and cold brand. I had problems in Depths, for example, when low AC becomes more harmful and you cannot use Ice Form often so you use light armour with normal HP.