Evocations


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

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Dungeon Master

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Post Thursday, 26th May 2011, 22:30

Evocations

Let's boost the effect of evocations on wands and rods. Currently, the power are:

  Code:
Wands: 30 + 2d(evoc)
Rods: 5 + evoc + 2d(evoc)


How about using this:
  Code:
30 + 2d(evoc^a) / b

Replace 30 by 5 for rods.

As usual, I've made a spreadsheet. The values are the average power. It's shared, so feel free to play with the numbers. There's revision history, so don't be afraid to break anything.

I've put a=1.5 for wands and 1.6 for rods, and I didn't use b (set to 1).

What do you think?
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Blades Runner

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Post Thursday, 26th May 2011, 22:46

Re: Evocations

I'm all for it!
It will make Artificer a viable choice to play through all game without resorting to other means of damage dealing.
Today I played SpAr and Rod of Striking lasted me for 5 floors. (with 10+ Evo).
Damage boost correlating with Evo on a greater scale, probably will make using rod longer a viable option.
*also adding more rod-choices for artificer would be nice. but that's off-topic

hxy

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Post Friday, 27th May 2011, 00:41

Re: Evocations

Maybe it should scale towards the power cap of the actual spell?
e.g. Bolt of Fire has a cap of 200, so at Evoc 27 the spell power should be around there. This puts the a value at about 1.77
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Dungeon Master

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Post Friday, 27th May 2011, 08:47

Re: Evocations

minmay wrote:Can we remove randomization from the power calculation? Players don't have spell power randomized when they cast actual spells; spells take care of that sort of thing on their own (conjurations don't always do the same amount of damage, summons don't always last the same number of turns, etc).

Good point. If we want to boost evocations, we can start by making it more reliable. I searched the git log and it seems that the randomised power pre-dates Stone Soup. I agree, we should remove it.

hxy wrote:Maybe it should scale towards the power cap of the actual spell?
e.g. Bolt of Fire has a cap of 200, so at Evoc 27 the spell power should be around there. This puts the a value at about 1.77

The cap of 200 is almost theoretical. To reach it, you need 27 in spellcasting, fire and conjuration, 3 enhancers and 34 int. Wouldn't be fair to give the same power to evocations when you just have a single skill to train. Thus, something between 100 and 120 seems reasonable for power at skill 27.
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hxy

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Post Friday, 27th May 2011, 10:04

Re: Evocations

ok, sounds logical.

Slime Squisher

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Post Friday, 27th May 2011, 21:55

Re: Evocations

This is a really nice idea. :-)
IMO it makes rods and wands a more viable option for characters that don't want to cast spells...

Lair Larrikin

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Post Saturday, 28th May 2011, 20:08

Re: Evocations

As far as I am concerned, something like this is long overdue. The sooner it gets in, the better. Although some combos could become too strong. Nemelex worshippers and all races with high evocations will get a boost. However, since wands and rods don't provide really awesome effects, this shouldn't be too much of an issue.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 29th May 2011, 01:55

Re: Evocations

dassem wrote:IMO it makes rods and wands a more viable option for characters that don't want to cast spells...


Exactly. Melee characters need a little help. This is a great idea galehar. Thank you.
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Zot Zealot

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Post Monday, 30th May 2011, 11:36

Re: Evocations

I like this too... I have a SpAr I kind of got depressed and parked a few months ago, because I got to a point where if I'd wanted to play a SpEn and ignored Ensorcelled Hibernation, I would've started one. It was only after clearing the Lair that I really figured out that Artificer isn't actually a background yet :P

I'd love there to be some more tactical benefits to training Evo as well (other than the charge counting thing). The damage increase and reliability buff are a great start... hack on!
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Dungeon Master

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Post Monday, 30th May 2011, 15:56

Re: Evocations

I've updated (read completely changed) my proposal based on feedback from the experts on IRC. They suggested to use a linear function and to have a different formulas for low tier and high tier wands.

  Code:
Low tier: 25 + 2 * evoc
High tier: 15 + 2.5 * evoc
Rods: 5 + 3 * evoc


Charts updated.

Note that it's a nerf to the high tier wands at low skill. You need evoc 6 to reach the power it currently has at skill 0.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 31st May 2011, 15:50

Re: Evocations

galehar wrote:I've updated (read completely changed) my proposal based on feedback from the experts on IRC. They suggested to use a linear function and to have a different formulas for low tier and high tier wands.

  Code:
Low tier: 25 + 2 * evoc
High tier: 15 + 2.5 * evoc
Rods: 5 + 3 * evoc


Charts updated.

Note that it's a nerf to the high tier wands at low skill. You need evoc 6 to reach the power it currently has at skill 0.


Regarding rods because I've been using a rod of destruction (ice - charged to +9 using only scrolls on a DEEP DWARF!!!! TALK ABOUT WASTE!) up the wahzoo for my recent character:

- Should rod power (+x) factor in, or is that just for melee/recharge rate/charges?
- Does evoc level reduce hunger from rod spell use?
- Should melee attacks using a rod cause ego-style damage (like certain magical staves), but use an expense of charge? I would love for my now +9 Rod of Destruction
- When is this going in? I would love to roll my current character over to it.
"Be aware that a lot of people on this forum, such as mageykun and XuaXua, have a habit of making things up." - minmay a.k.a. duvessa
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Dungeon Master

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Post Tuesday, 31st May 2011, 16:16

Re: Evocations

XuaXua wrote:- Should rod power (+x) factor in, or is that just for melee/recharge rate/charges?

Rod enchantment don't affect power. It has enough effect already, I don't think it's necessary to change that.

XuaXua wrote:- Does evoc level reduce hunger from rod spell use?

It does. Hunger is reduced by 10 * evoc, but it has a minimum of 5 * spell level.

XuaXua wrote:- Should melee attacks using a rod cause ego-style damage (like certain magical staves), but use an expense of charge? I would love for my now +9 Rod of Destruction

Nope. I think it's fine that rods are crappy weapons.

XuaXua wrote:- When is this going in? I would love to roll my current character over to it.

Since I didn't get much feedback (and none bad), and there's almost no coding, probably pretty soon.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 31st May 2011, 16:20

Re: Evocations

Are high/low tiers this:

cold/frost
fire/flame
disint/dart

?
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Dungeon Master

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Post Tuesday, 31st May 2011, 16:28

Re: Evocations

Grimm wrote:Are high/low tiers this:

cold/frost
fire/flame
disint/dart

?

Currently, hier tier wands are fire, cold, lightning, draining and paralysis (I added the last 2 to the list some time ago). The distinction is only used for not giving high tier wand to low HD monsters (they can still pick one from the ground).
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 31st May 2011, 23:40

Re: Evocations

According to the chart this is mostly a buff to rods and the five high tier wands. Low tier wands top out at not much more than they currently top out at. They do it much sooner though.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Wednesday, 1st June 2011, 21:13

Re: Evocations

Done.
After checking the damage numbers, I decided to keep it simple and have a single formula for all wands:

wands: 15 + evoc * 2.5
rods: 5 + evoc *3
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Lair Larrikin

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Post Sunday, 5th June 2011, 16:15

Re: Evocations

Well, this could make high tier wands a little less useful early on. I actually expect this to make the eraly game harder for some combos, since at the beginning your character can be very dependant on the occasional high tier wand.

Vestibule Violator

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Post Sunday, 5th June 2011, 17:15

Re: Evocations

At low power the base damage of attacks will be responsible for a lot of the damage anyway. 15 power more or less wont do that much. Besides, since the evocation dependent part of wand power is no longer randomized you will reach the old average power even before 6 evocations skill.

I think nerfing a few wands ever so slightly for builds that chose not to invest in evocations skill at all is acceptable. Probably it even is a good change.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 12th August 2011, 14:59

Re: Evocations

Did this change affect damage from enhancer staves?
"Be aware that a lot of people on this forum, such as mageykun and XuaXua, have a habit of making things up." - minmay a.k.a. duvessa
Did I make a lame complaint? Check for Bingo!
Totally gracious CSDC Season 2 Division 4 Champeen!
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Dungeon Master

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Post Friday, 12th August 2011, 15:07

Re: Evocations

Nope, only wands.
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