Remove sources of banishment into Abyss from low-mid levels.

[white_noise]

It's death sentence for lvl10 or lower characters and way too harsh test for 15-ish ones.
It just makes no sense to throw underdeveloped char in such grinder.

[Berder]

  Code:

<halberd> !lm . !ak banished s=xl o=xl
<Sequell> 138 milestones for halberd (!ak banished): 15x 27, 6x 26, 7x 25, 11x 24, 12x 23, 16x 22, 13x 21, 11x 20, 14x 19, 6x 18, 9x 17, 4x 16, 15, 5x 14, 2x 12, 2x 10, 8, 6, 5, 3
<halberd> !lg . !ak abyss s=xl o=xl
<Sequell> 7 games for halberd (!ak abyss): 27, 20, 19, 16, 14, 10, 8

The first query shows how many times I was banished at different XLs, for example at xl27 I was banished 15x. The second query shows at what XLs I died in the abyss. You can see that it's a much shorter list, and most times I entered the abyss at low XL I did not die there. I was banished twice at xl10, once each at xl8, xl6, xl5, xl3. I died in the abyss at xl 10 and 8. I was able to escape 4/6 times at xl<=10.

As you can see, with skill, you can frequently and maybe even usually survive the abyss at low XL. Also with skill you can avoid getting abyssed at low levels (check for disto weapons, don't fight enemies that can abyss you).

Personally I think the abyss is an exciting and valuable part of the game, especially at low XL.

[Chicken]

The main thing I wish is that when somebody comes near you with a weapon of distortion, the thing would be harder to miss. Like, actually distort the TILES to make a cute little black hole effect around him. It sucks to lose because you just weren't watching the text closely.

[Sandman25]

The main thing I wish is that when somebody comes near you with a weapon of distortion, the thing would be harder to miss. Like, actually distort the TILES to make a cute little black hole effect around him. It sucks to lose because you just weren't watching the text closely.

flash_screen_message += distortion

[njvack]

flash_screen_message is so close to working, and then three Hell Knights come into LOS at once and one of them has a dtrident of disto

But it does almost always save you from that kobold with a disto whatever.

Anyhow! Low-level abyssing is well-known and intended behavior.

From time to time a discussion about Crawl's unfair OOD (out of depth) monsters turns up, like a dragon on the second dungeon level. These are not bugs! Actually, they are part of the randomness design goal. In this case, they also serve as additional motivation: in many situations, the OOD monster can be survived somehow, and the mental bond with the character will then surely grow. OOD monsters also help to keep players on their toes by making shallow, or cleared, levels still not trivial. In a similar vein, early trips to the Abyss are not deficits: there's more than one way out, and successfully escaping is exciting for anyone.

[Sandman25]

flash_screen_message is so close to working, and then three Hell Knights come into LOS at once and one of them has a dtrident of disto

Note that the flash also happens when you use x and +/- to select a different monster and the monster is wielding distortion weapon.
I have "force_more_message" for distortion effects and then use x++... to locate the monster via flash.

[onget]

Personally I think the abyss is an exciting and valuable part of the game, especially at low XL.

It simply is an exciting as gambling, not interesting.

[Sandman25]

Personally I think the abyss is an exciting and valuable part of the game, especially at low XL.

It simply is an exciting as gambling, not interesting.

But it's interesting to avoid getting banished.

[lessens]

Remove them entirely imo.

[nago]

Why remove from low-mid level? Is the only part the Abyss may be an actual danger to a char.
Rather, why don't add something like 500-5k turns every time an high char would unwilling be banished and just be fine with it? I mean the effect would be the same, without all the tedium between.

[Sandman25]

Why remove from low-mid level? Is the only part the Abyss may be an actual danger to a char.
Rather, why don't add something like 500-5k turns every time an high char would unwilling be banished? I mean the effect would be the same, without all the tedium between.

There is Berder's statistics in second post, some XL 27 characters do die in Abyss.

[nago]

Oh yeah some could be mine too, when it took like more than a tons (like 3k+) of meaningless turns to find a fucking exit a not only 3s and other little shit eager to be killed or block autotravel and whatever and in the end I gave up to the Abyss' madness and start to only tab hoping death would come fast to relieve me from the frustation. If abyss target to players' sanity and not to chars' hp (at least for high lv. chars) that works very well at least for me.

In other words, I think someone else can make some queries to check that in most other places xl24+ chars have died. That don't mean those specific floors were particularly dangerous or even that specific death wasn't unavoidable (I can bet 99% it was). Abyss isn't particularly different from that, except it has a various set of weird rules which seems are specifically created only to decrease the pleasure of playing the game, plus a good amount of weird specific monsters which are good to that too. Plus other weird effects to titles. Plus some shitty ways autoexplore is worse than manual exploring (at least I believe so) and so on

edit: sry, I read the statistic after writing the post, those are only berder's death so the first part of the post ins't really accurate. The rest stands tough

[Sandman25]

So I am glad that you changed your mind and don't insist that banishment should be replaced with +5k increase to current turn number. I like Abyss, it scares me a lot and I try to get out ASAP, remove banishment and I will stop wearing MR items.

[byrel]

Why remove from low-mid level? Is the only part the Abyss may be an actual danger to a char.
Rather, why don't add something like 500-5k turns every time an high char would unwilling be banished? I mean the effect would be the same, without all the tedium between.

There is Berder's statistics in second post, some XL 27 characters do die in Abyss.

Sure. But I've taken characters to A:5 just to see what it's like multiple times. And not unkillable characters either; high level spriggan enchanters, etc. Not all play is optimal. Berder's statistics simply indicate that optimal play can do at least that well.

[Berder]

FYI, my XL 27 character that died in abyss did so to a solitary ancient lich on abyss:1 shortly after ancient liches were updated to have more random spells, and before alich chain lightning was nerfed. Getting chain lightninged for 120 damage, with another chain lightning the following turn to finish me off, was quite a surprise.

[ragnarokchu]

I think at lower levels it should be easier to escape from the abyss. At low levels you don't have any tools to attempt to trek through the abyss and just praying to rng to find a gate early or die.

[byrel]

I grant there's a much higher than normal dungeon chance of the RNG just screwing you in the Abyss. It's still a low chance, and it's still significantly controllable.

I just don't agree that we should eliminate every death that the player could not have avoided. I'm with the manual on that.

[mps]

I would go the opposite direction: Rename worms "abyssal worms" and give them distortion branded melee, imo.

[white_noise]

I would go the opposite direction: Rename worms "abyssal worms" and give them distortion branded melee, imo.

Or even better, throw newly generated char straight into abyss. It will teach them!

[Sandman25]

I would go the opposite direction: Rename worms "abyssal worms" and give them distortion branded melee, imo.

Yes, we should give players a better reason to kite those worms. Those who are not patient enough to kill the worms with stones without sling deserve to die.

[Sar]

You can't kill them with stones without sling anymore because they regenerate fast now.

[Sandman25]

You can't kill them with stones without sling anymore because they regenerate fast now.

Are you sure? I have just checked TrHu, it killed the worm with stones.

  Code:

Action                   || total
-------------------------++-------
Throw: Stone             ||    20

  Code:

Rolled 0 for 1d0 x2
The stone hits the worm but does no damage.
The worm is moderately wounded.
Throwing (i - inventory. (,) - cycle): f - 23 stones (quivered)
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f/p - worm
Aim: a worm (moderately wounded)
You throw a stone.
Rolled 0 for 1d0 x2
The stone hits the worm.(damage 2)
The worm is heavily wounded.
Throwing (i - inventory. (,) - cycle): f - 22 stones (quivered)
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f/p - worm
Aim: a worm (heavily wounded)
You throw a stone.
Rolled 0 for 1d0 x2
The stone hits the worm but does no damage.
The worm is heavily wounded.
Throwing (i - inventory. (,) - cycle): f - 21 stones (quivered)
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f/p - worm
Aim: a worm (moderately wounded)
You throw a stone.
Rolled 0 for 1d0 x2
The stone barely misses the worm.
Throwing (i - inventory. (,) - cycle): f - 20 stones (quivered)
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f/p - worm
Aim: a worm (lightly wounded)
You throw a stone.
Rolled 0 for 1d0 x2
The stone hits the worm.(damage 3)
The worm is moderately wounded.
Throwing (i - inventory. (,) - cycle): f - 19 stones (quivered)
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f/p - worm
Aim: a worm (moderately wounded)
You throw a stone.
Rolled 0 for 1d0 x2
The stone barely misses the worm.
Throwing (i - inventory. (,) - cycle): f - 18 stones (quivered)
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f/p - worm
Aim: a worm (moderately wounded)
You throw a stone.
Rolled 0 for 1d0 x2
The stone hits the worm.(damage 3)
The worm is moderately wounded.
Throwing (i - inventory. (,) - cycle): f - 17 stones (quivered)
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f/p - worm
Aim: a worm (moderately wounded)
You throw a stone.
Rolled 0 for 1d0 x2
The stone hits the worm but does no damage.
The worm is moderately wounded.
Unknown command.
Throwing (i - inventory. (,) - cycle): f - 16 stones (quivered)
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f/p - worm
Aim: a worm (moderately wounded)
You throw a stone.
Rolled 0 for 1d0 x2
The stone hits the worm.(damage 2)
The worm is moderately wounded.
Throwing (i - inventory. (,) - cycle): f - 15 stones (quivered)
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f/p - worm
Aim: a worm (moderately wounded)
You throw a stone.
Rolled 0 for 1d0 x2
The stone hits the worm.(damage 2)
The worm is moderately wounded.
Found a stone staircase leading down.
Found 13 stones.
Throwing (i - inventory. (,) - cycle): f - 14 stones (quivered)
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f/p - worm
Aim: a worm (moderately wounded)
You throw a stone.
Rolled 0 for 1d0 x2
The stone hits the worm.(damage 2)
The worm is moderately wounded.
Throwing (i - inventory. (,) - cycle): f - 13 stones (quivered)
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f/p - worm
Aim: a worm (moderately wounded)
You throw a stone.
Rolled 0 for 1d0 x2
The stone hits the worm.(damage 3)
The worm is heavily wounded.
Throwing (i - inventory. (,) - cycle): f - 12 stones (quivered)
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f/p - worm
Aim: a worm (heavily wounded)
You throw a stone.
Rolled 0 for 1d0 x2
The stone hits the worm but does no damage.
The worm is heavily wounded.
Found a robe and a chain mail.
Throwing (i - inventory. (,) - cycle): f - 11 stones (quivered)
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f/p - worm
Aim: a worm (moderately wounded)
Brought monster down to 1 HP.
You throw a stone.
Rolled 0 for 1d0 x2
The stone hits the worm.(damage 2)
You kill the worm!

[Sar]

Hu? What was your Throwing?

[neil]

  Code:

Aim: a worm (moderately wounded)
***Brought monster down to 1 HP.***
You throw a stone.

I think you accidentally pressed "," instead of ".".

[Sandman25]

Hu? What was your Throwing?

3.6, starting throwing of TrHu.

I think you accidentally pressed "," instead of ".".

Probably. I threw some stones at adjacent worm, that was stupid.

[Sar]

Try it with Throwing 0? Most characters will have that and wouldn't want to train Throwing only to kill worms with stones. Unless we actually make those worms send you to Abyss, of course!

[Sandman25]

Try it with Throwing 0? Most characters will have that and wouldn't want to train Throwing only to kill worms with stones. Unless we actually make those worms send you to Abyss, of course!

Right, throwing 0 cannot kill it. 1 damage mostly and the worm regens it next turn.

[mps]

I would go the opposite direction: Rename worms "abyssal worms" and give them distortion branded melee, imo.

Yes, we should give players a better reason to kite those worms. Those who are not patient enough to kill the worms with stones without sling deserve to die.

I would hope that distortion branded worm attacks would be sufficient inducement for most players not to fight them at all, but who knows...

One positive aspect of early banishment is you have good chance to get a better than average god on d:1 or 2. I guess this might lead to "worm scumming."

[lessens]

This whole line of discussion sort of underlines why I don't like disto banishing generally. The fact that enemies carry disto weapons creates a lot of situations where you just run away from enemies without adding anything tactically, it was almost better back when you couldn't see the had them and got Abyssed instantly because trying to escape the Abyss at a low xl is at least challenging.

[bel]

Uh if you have to run away from something, it does add to tactics and decision making. Also, you don't have to run away, often. You can polymorph, use ranged attacks, etc.

[byrel]

I can't recall the last time I ran away from a popcorn monster with distortion (sonja, etc. not being counted here. I run from her more because of curare.) It's more 'Kill with extreme prejudice.'

[Sandman25]

I can't recall the last time I ran away from a popcorn monster with distortion (sonja, etc. not being counted here. I run from her more because of curare.) It's more 'Kill with extreme prejudice.'

It depends on player and character I think. I encountered a monster with distortion in Depths, tried to spam SticksToSnakes but it didn't work so I invoked Apocalypse, it killed most monsters except that one but fortunately it was paralyzed. This probably shows how serious I am when dealing with distortion, don't give the monster a chance if you can.

[white_noise]

I encountered a monster with distortion in Depths, tried to spam SticksToSnakes but it didn't work so I invoked Apocalypse, it killed most monsters except that one but fortunately it was paralyzed. This probably shows how serious I am when dealing with distortion, don't give the monster a chance if you can.

If you are in Depths already then you cleared at least mines, lair and some random lair subbranch (possibly even halls and vaults). This means that you can handle occasional banishment relatively good. But being thrown there from D1-10 (pre-mines/lair) means that you simply don't have tools (skills/equipment) to survive except for sheer luck. This makes whole thing a cruel lottery where you can't possibly win. If you are lucky enough you can manage to not lose, but that's it.

Early banishment (and frankly Abyss itself) adds very little interest to the game but plenty of frustration.

[Sandman25]

If you are in Depths already then you cleared at least mines, lair and some random lair subbranch (possibly even halls and vaults). This means that you can handle occasional banishment relatively good. But being thrown there from D1-10 (pre-mines/lair) means that you simply don't have tools (skills/equipment) to survive except for sheer luck. This makes whole thing a cruel lottery where you can't possibly win. If you are lucky enough you can manage to not lose, but that's it.

Early banishment (and frankly Abyss itself) adds very little interest to the game but plenty of frustration.

I am rarely banished because I wear MR items to have 0% chance for banishment so it has little with luck, more with my abysophobia
I don't want to "handle occasional banishment relatively good", especially when I don't have rMut, ring of sustain abilities and stasis.

[dowan]

In nethack there are cockatrices, they are really easy enemies, except once in a while they will hiss at you or you will have taken your gloves/weapon off for some reason, and you instantly die instead of easily killing them.

Compare to the orc with the distortion weapon.

[white_noise]

In nethack there are cockatrices, they are really easy enemies, except once in a while they will hiss at you or you will have taken your gloves/weapon off for some reason, and you instantly die instead of easily killing them.

Compare to the orc with the distortion weapon.

If other games have some absurd stuff that kills your character for no reason, it doesn't mean that crawl should have it too.

[Sprucery]

In nethack there are cockatrices, they are really easy enemies, except once in a while they will hiss at you or you will have taken your gloves/weapon off for some reason, and you instantly die instead of easily killing them.

Not instantly, though. There's time to take a bite of the lizard corpse you're carrying.

[duvessa]

That's only for the hiss (and eating an egg).

[byrel]

In nethack there are cockatrices, they are really easy enemies, except once in a while they will hiss at you or you will have taken your gloves/weapon off for some reason, and you instantly die instead of easily killing them.

Compare to the orc with the distortion weapon.

OK. Challenge accepted.

Nethack cockatrices:

• Cause insta-death in completely unavoidable ways
• Offer no interactivity for the victim, except the marginal counterplay of carrying a lizard corpse for the slow stonings.
• Are extremely spoilery, and sometimes unavoidable to to the status effects inflictable on the player (blindness for instance)

Orcs with distortion weapons

• Never cause insta-death except via burst damage similar to other brands
• Lower you chances of survival, but provide you with an interactive, heavily skill-impacted and consumable-mitigatable challenge (I don't even find this boring with low-level characters; some might)
• Are announced on appearance, and have extremely simple and predictable interactions, and are generally entirely avoidable through the use of some consumable or tactics.

I don't think they're similar in the important ways. Now, if I were comparing (say) an ancient lich with paralyze to Nethack cockatrices this might end up different...

[dowan]

The way they're similar is that they aren't at all threatening to a player who is carefully paying total attention through long periods of tedium. If I am tabbing through a bunch of orcs, I don't feel like checking each one's weapon.

[duvessa]

tbh cockatrices are better in that regard because at least they have a unique glyph/tile