But seriously, remove hunger


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 47

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd December 2013, 19:12

Post Tuesday, 11th August 2015, 19:13

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

As noted, hunger is not a serious lock on scumming. The side discussion on scumming does not contribute to solving perceived problems with huger.

Hunger is almost never meaningful given reasonable play. The issue is that hunger remains a counter against extreme dawdling (beyond the level of poor play, it's still hard to starve while actually trying to advance) as well as the use of high-level spellcasting and evokables and a few other things like berserk, and spriggans.

It's pointless to remove hunger without another mechanic to counter these. If you want to make it less of a pain, just have chunks be automatically harvested and eaten with aut use and no inventory interaction - and raise the current "satiated" hunger level higher to account for not being able to hold chunks in reserve. This eliminates turn loss, hitting c, hitting e or auto-eating on o/5, and stuff like having to clear space in inventory when you're full for chunks. At that point players are not having to take extra actions, they are only dealing with the hunger mechanic when it becomes meaningful because they are trying to do things like cast 7th level spells or berserk every fight.

This is the next step in food revision and would open the way to other changes. You can revise permafood to require less management as well if you want. As you find various ways to replace hunger mechanics you can simplify and eventually remove permafood and then the chunk-eating mechanic altogether. Although you may find once you eliminate the pain-in-the-ass parts of hunger that the flavor, atmosphere and familiarity it provides - as well as the differentiation, however slight, for races like Troll or places like The Crypt - is worth it. Or you can get rid of it. Either way, on the way to being able to do that you've eliminated much of what is boring and painful about hunger.

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 853

Joined: Thursday, 29th August 2013, 18:39

Post Tuesday, 11th August 2015, 20:21

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

I would like crawl better if I never had to cut up corpses and eat them, regardless of how much of that is automated. Food for killing monsters directly would be fine as a sort of background clock. I don't like food being two different things - the background clock should be a different mechanic from the spell/rod/ability limiter. (Hunger/Thirst or whatever) Then at least they could be tweaked independently and food could be relevant for melee characters while still staying fair to high-level spellcasters.
User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 1788

Joined: Saturday, 29th June 2013, 16:52

Post Tuesday, 11th August 2015, 21:56

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

Perhaps the two of you missed it in the wall of text I posted in the OP (which is my fault, not yours), but I did suggest numerous alternatives to hunger costs for spells and other abilities. For example, proportional stat drain could easily replace hunger on berserk and spellcasting, or channeling could be made to give more MP but take 3 turns at 0 evo/invo. Spriggans are really the only thing in Crawl that don't have a simple solution; I tend to think that they're so easy to ascend right now that taking away their food conduct wouldn't really move the needle far on their difficulty, however, and if they need a nerf in foodless Crawl, they need a nerf right now.

edited to add: for what little it's worth, I still don't think anything really needs to be limited; even berserk can't actually be "abused" in any meaningful way through overuse, and anyone casting high-level spells "too early" is only overspending on MP. However, I get the idea this isn't a popular opinion, so I tried to suggest some meaningful limitations to replace hunger.
Last edited by archaeo on Tuesday, 11th August 2015, 22:16, edited 1 time in total.

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 47

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd December 2013, 19:12

Post Tuesday, 11th August 2015, 22:12

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

archaeo wrote:Perhaps the two of you missed it in the wall of text I posted in the OP (which is my fault, not yours), but I did suggest numerous alternatives to hunger costs for spells and other abilities. For example, proportional stat drain could easily replace hunger on berserk and spellcasting, or channeling could be made to give more MP but take 3 turns at 0 evo/invo. Spriggans are really the only thing in Crawl that don't have a simple solution; I tend to think that they're so easy to ascend right now that taking away their food conduct wouldn't really move the needle far on their difficulty, however, and if they need a nerf in foodless Crawl, they need a nerf right now.


There's no need to suggest I did not read the OP in its entirety. My suggestions are on same road as the rest of your suggestions, they are just earlier stops. Gradual implementation also has a better chance of being accepted. "Eliminate chunks from inventory" or "change berserk to do temp stat drain" are a lot easier to parse and accept than "eliminate hunger and food".

My point is you can begin solving many of the issues you talk about with hunger without (a) eliminating hunger or (b) rewriting a whole lot of code. Then you can look at options such as stat drain for berserk, introduce them gradually, and give them time to settle. At any point along that path two things might happen - you might decide hunger is Not So Bad now that the annoyance is reduced, or a programmer might decide to complete the job now that the footprint of change required is reduced.

Spider Stomper

Posts: 233

Joined: Monday, 20th December 2010, 20:58

Post Tuesday, 11th August 2015, 22:29

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

So let me get this straight. Food as a mechanic does nothing usefull and only serves to annoy players, and the response is to make it less annoying so it just does absolutely nothing? If it does nothing, not even annoy us, why is it in the game? Just remove it!

For this message the author acvar has received thanks:
duvessa
User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 1788

Joined: Saturday, 29th June 2013, 16:52

Post Tuesday, 11th August 2015, 22:35

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

Sorry, arag, I misread your post; you said, "It's pointless to remove hunger without another mechanic to counter these," which I thought meant that you didn't realize I had suggested some other mechanics. Sorry about that.

In any case, I'm totally fine with gradual or partial implementation, or really any change that improves on the status quo. However, proposals for other gradual changes to hunger issues haven't really succeeded very often, including dpeg's chunkless proposal. I thought that, by throwing everything I've got on the table re: hunger, we might at least be able to find a couple of ideas worth pursuing.

mps

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 886

Joined: Saturday, 3rd January 2015, 22:34

Post Wednesday, 12th August 2015, 10:01

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

Field report: On cszo last night, we witnessed a legitimate starvation death. I can't say I understand the exact circumstances under which it happened, but it was witnessed by several tileschat regulars, including the OP. We've all agreed that it's time for us to sit down and rethink our lives.
Dungeon Crawling Advice tl;dr: Protect ya neck.
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4478

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd October 2013, 07:56

Post Wednesday, 12th August 2015, 10:21

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

What kind of character was it?
DCSS: 97:...MfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}
FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWrNaAKBaFi{MiDeMfDe}{DrAKTrAMGhEnGnWz}
{PaBeDjFi}OgAKPaCAGnCjOgCKMfAEAtCKSpCjDEEE{HOSu
Bloat: 17: RaRoPrPh{GuStGnCa}{ArEtZoNb}KiPaAnDrBXDBQOApDaMeAGBiOCNKAsFnFlUs{RoBoNeWi

mps

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 886

Joined: Saturday, 3rd January 2015, 22:34

Post Wednesday, 12th August 2015, 11:46

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

It was a GrEE^Veh.
Dungeon Crawling Advice tl;dr: Protect ya neck.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Wednesday, 12th August 2015, 12:22

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

I bet it was bad play. Gr does not have problems hybridizing, I suspect the character rushed to Shatter relying on wizardry bonus and ignored melee.

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1776

Joined: Monday, 21st February 2011, 15:57

Location: South Carolina

Post Wednesday, 12th August 2015, 13:42

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

Hunger is okay when it causes me to think about my skilling, equipment, or tactics. (Honestly, this is rare, but it may be just because "don't spam high hunger abilities" is well ingrained in my play style.)

Hunger is bad for the game when I have to take action to put my satiation level where I want it. (eat, butcher, drop food, travel to my food stash.)

If all food simply increased satiation when it is first seen without any action by the player, and if maximum satiation was increased, then hunger costs could still be used to balance abilities as they are today without causing annoyance. Progress/exploration would be rewarded without extra stress of food management on the player.
User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 1788

Joined: Saturday, 29th June 2013, 16:52

Post Wednesday, 12th August 2015, 18:28

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

Decent guess, Sandman25, but not quite. I grabbed the morgue after the game, and got DukeNuker's permission to post it:

  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.17-a0-1646-geb1493d (webtiles) character file.

60810 DukeNuker the Earth Mage (level 15, 43/72 HPs)
             Began as a Gargoyle Earth Elementalist on Aug 12, 2015.
             Was a High Priest of Vehumet.
             Starved to death
             ... on level 8 of the Lair of Beasts.
             The game lasted 03:39:51 (39250 turns).

DukeNuker the Earth Mage (GrEE)                    Turns: 39250, Time: 03:39:51

Health: 43/72      AC: 19    Str: 14    XL:     15   Next: 0%
Magic:  27/27      EV: 12    Int: 20    God:    Vehumet [*****.]
Gold:   1070       SH:  0    Dex: 12    Spells: 7 memorised, 4 levels left

rFire  . . .     SeeInvis .     M - +0 battleaxe (flame)
rCold  . . .     Clarity  +     f - +1 robe
rNeg   + + .     SustAt   .     (no shield)
rPois  ∞         Gourm    .     (no helmet)
rElec  +         Spirit   .     p - +1 cloak
rCorr  .         Warding  .     s - +0 pair of gloves
rMut   .         Stasis   .     P - +0 pair of boots
MR     +....                    K - amulet of clarity
Stlth  ++........               b - ring of positive energy
                                t - +1 ring of protection

@: flying, very slightly contaminated, starving, somewhat resistant to hostile
enchantments, unstealthy
A: big wings, agile 1, negative energy resistance 1, electricity resistance,
spit poison 1, unbreathing, petrification resistance, rot immunity, AC +11
a: Spit Poison, Stop Flying, Renounce Religion


You were on level 8 of the Lair of Beasts.
You worshipped Vehumet.
Vehumet was extremely pleased with you.
You were starving.

You visited 3 branches of the dungeon, and saw 20 of its levels.
You also visited: Sewer.

You collected 1231 gold pieces.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 M - a +0 battleaxe of flaming (weapon)
Missiles
 a - 191 stones (quivered)
Armour
 f - a +1 robe (worn)
 p - a +1 cloak (worn)
 s - a +0 pair of gloves (worn)
 P - a +0 pair of boots (worn)
Magical staves
 Y - an uncursed staff of conjuration
 Z - an uncursed staff of earth
Jewellery
 b - a ring of positive energy (right hand)
 t - a +1 ring of protection (left hand)
 K - an amulet of clarity (around neck)
 U - an uncursed amulet of warding
Magical devices
 q - a wand of digging (15)
 y - a wand of digging (8)
 H - a wand of confusion (24)
 L - a wand of cold (0)
 O - a wand of fireball (0)
 Q - a wand of lightning (0)
 X - a wand of disintegration (7)
Scrolls
 h - a scroll of fear
 k - 3 scrolls of magic mapping
 x - a scroll of fog
 z - 3 scrolls of enchant weapon
 D - 3 scrolls of recharging
 F - 3 scrolls of enchant armour
 R - 3 scrolls of identify
 S - 8 scrolls of remove curse
Potions
 g - a potion of magic
 i - a potion of cancellation
 j - 5 potions of agility
 l - a potion of might
 m - 3 potions of lignification
 r - a potion of brilliance
 w - 5 potions of resistance
 B - 4 potions of flight
 E - a potion of berserk rage
 G - a potion of ambrosia
 I - 2 potions of cure mutation
Books
 c - a book of Geomancy   
   
    Spells                             Type                      Level
    a - Sandblast                    Earth                         1
    b - Stoneskin                    Transmutation/Earth           2
    c - Passwall                     Transmutation/Earth           3
    d - Stone Arrow                  Conjuration/Earth             3
    e - Petrify                      Transmutation/Earth           4
    f - Lee's Rapid Deconstruction   Earth                         5
 e - a book of Conjurations   
   
    Spells                             Type                      Level
    a - Magic Dart                   Conjuration                   1
    b - Searing Ray                  Conjuration                   2
    c - Dazzling Spray               Conjuration/Hexes             3
    d - Fulminant Prism              Conjuration/Hexes             4
    e - Iskenderun's Mystic Blast    Conjuration                   4
    f - Iskenderun's Battlesphere    Conjuration/Charms            5
 n - a book of Envenomations   
   
    Spells                             Type                      Level
    a - Spider Form                  Transmutation/Poison          3
    b - Alistair's Intoxication      Transmutation/Poison          4
    c - Olgreb's Toxic Radiance      Poison                        4
    d - Poisonous Cloud              Conjuration/Poison/Air        6
 u - a book of Cantrips   
   
    Spells                             Type                      Level
    a - Corona                       Hexes                         1
    b - Animate Skeleton             Necromancy                    1
    c - Summon Small Mammal          Summoning                     1
    d - Apportation                  Translocation                 1
 T - a book of the Warp   
   
    Spells                             Type                      Level
    a - Recall                       Summoning/Translocation       3
    b - Gell's Gravitas              Hexes/Translocation           3
    c - Force Lance                  Conjuration/Translocation     4
    d - Phase Shift                  Translocation                 5
    e - Warp Weapon                  Charms/Translocation          5
    f - Summon Forest                Summoning/Translocation       5
Miscellaneous
 d - a plain deck of summoning {drawn: 2}
 C - a plain deck of wonders {drawn: 3}
 V - a stone of tremors (inert)


   Skills:
 - Level 1.5 Dodging
 - Level 2.1 Stealth
 * Level 8.8 Spellcasting
 + Level 13.8 Conjurations
 - Level 0.7 Transmutations
 + Level 5.9 Fire Magic
 - Level 20.1 Earth Magic
 + Level 6.7 Evocations


You had 4 spell levels left.
You knew the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Sandblast             Erth           ######       0%          1    None
b - Stone Arrow           Conj/Erth      ######       1%          3    None
c - Lee's Rapid Deconstr  Erth           ######....   1%          5    #####..
d - Fireball              Conj/Fire      #####.....   1%          5    #####..
e - Orb of Destruction    Conj           ######....   7%          7    #######
f - Delayed Fireball      Conj/Fire      N/A          50%         7    #######
g - Petrify               Trmt/Erth      ######..     1%          4    ###....


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (11/15)            Temple (1/1) D:4            Lair (8/8) D:10
 Shoals (0/4) Lair:6       Spider (0/4) Lair:6        Slime (0/6) Lair:8
   Orc: D:9-12     

Altars:
Ashenzari
Dithmenos
Kikubaaqudgha
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Qazlal
Ru
Sif Muna
Vehumet
Xom
Zin
The Shining One
Jiyva

Shops:
D:4 [


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You are resistant to torment.
Your stone body is resilient (AC +11).
You are immune to poison.
Your large and strong wings let you fly indefinitely.
You resist negative energy.
You are resistant to electric shocks.
You can survive without breathing.
You are immune to petrification.
You are immune to rotting.
You are agile. (Dex +2)
You can spit weak poison.


Message History

You shout for attention!
What do you say?
 t - Shout!
Orders for allies: a - Attack new target.
                   r - Retreat!             s - Stop attacking.
                   w - Wait here.           f - Follow me.
 Anything else - Stay silent.
You shout for attention!
What do you say?
 t - Shout!
Orders for allies: a - Attack new target.
                   r - Retreat!             s - Stop attacking.
                   w - Wait here.           f - Follow me.
 Anything else - Stay silent.
You shout for attention!
You aren't carrying any food.
Drink which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
Okay, then.
You have starved to death.
You die...

######..###...###...##......##...
...........................####..
...........................#.#...
.....P.....................#.....
......P...#........##............
.###.PP.#.##........#.##........)
##.#....#####......#####.........
#......##  ##.....## ##..........
..#.....#  #....@.# ##...........
.###...######....####............
#......##...#......##.##.........
..P...............P..............
.............................PP..
.........PP..................P..P
.#.....PP..##...............#.PPP
..##....P##.#....<.####......#.PP
.##..PP..#.####.....###.....##..P


There were no monsters in sight!

Vanquished Creatures
  6 hydras
  Erolcha (D:9)
  3 death yaks
  A lindwurm (Lair:6)
  A manticore (Lair:8)
  3 griffons
  An oklob plant (Lair:6)
  7 black mambas
  14 elephants
  20 spiny frogs
  2 sirens (Lair:6)
  The ghost of lifemoon the Shield-Bearer, an experienced VSFi of Qazlal (D:6)
  2 centaur skeletons
  13 komodo dragons
  6 fire drakes
  A troll (D:9)
  2 merfolk (Lair:6)
  6 polar bears
  A slime creature (Lair:8)
  A two-headed ogre (D:6)
  31 blink frogs
  2 boulder beetles
  4 trapdoor spiders (Lair:6)
  A deep elf mage (D:10)
  4 wyverns
  54 yaks
  A human (D:6)
  A basilisk (Lair:2)
  19 hippogriffs
  6 swamp worms (Lair:2)
  11 wolves
  15 water moccasins
  The ghost of Bravepunisher the Covert, an average SpBe of Trog (D:3)
  14 porcupines
  Duvessa (D:5)
  An orc warrior (D:7)
  4 ice beasts
  2 sky beasts
  A necrophage (D:9)
  4 ogres
  2 phantoms (D:4)
  5 centaurs
  20 giant frogs
  3 big kobolds
  12 crocodiles
  Dowan (D:5)
  2 wyvern zombies
  2 scorpions
  7 wights (D:9)
  10 killer bees
  2 crimson imps
  3 electric eels (Lair:6)
  A wasp zombie (D:9)
  A giant frog zombie (D:6)
  2 hounds (D:10)
  6 orc priests
  4 jellies
  5 orc wizards
  7 hell rats (Lair:6)
  7 worker ants
  12 iguanas
  27 sheep
  2 hound skeletons
  A worker ant zombie (D:5)
  4 gnolls
  6 adders
  97 river rats
  A shadow imp (D:5)
  17 worms
  An adder skeleton (D:4)
  8 giant geckos
  26 orcs
  2 ball pythons
  7 giant cockroaches
  10 hobgoblins
  12 jackals
  22 kobolds
  8 quokkas
  A ball python skeleton (D:6)
  12 bats
  A giant gecko zombie (D:6)
  6 giant newts
  13 goblins
  A jackal zombie (D:5)
  A quokka skeleton (D:7)
  A quokka zombie (D:6)
  7 rats
  13 fungi
  7 plants
697 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (collateral kills)
  A wolf (Lair:8)
  A water moccasin (Lair:8)
2 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  A naga (Lair:6)
  102 fungi
  25 plants
128 creatures vanquished.

Grand Total: 827 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | DukeNuker the Gargoyle Earth Elementalist began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 10/10 MP: 3/3
   313 | D:1      | Reached skill level 4 in Earth Magic
   356 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 15/15 MP: 1/5
   686 | D:1      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 19/19 MP: 0/6
  1725 | D:2      | Reached skill level 5 in Earth Magic
  2122 | D:2      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 24/24 MP: 4/7
  2515 | D:3      | Noticed Bravepunisher's ghost (average SpBe)
  2584 | D:3      | Found a stormy altar of Qazlal.
  2702 | D:3      | Found an iron altar of Okawaru.
  2853 | D:3      | Killed Bravepunisher's ghost
  2853 | D:3      | Reached skill level 6 in Earth Magic
  2853 | D:3      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 17/28 MP: 0/9
  3183 | D:3      | Learned a level 3 spell: Stone Arrow
  3189 | D:3      | Learned a level 5 spell: Lee's Rapid Deconstruction
  3207 | D:3      | Reached skill level 7 in Earth Magic
  3208 | D:3      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 32/32 MP: 3/10
  3641 | D:3      | Gained mutation: You can spit weak poison. [potion of mutation]
  3641 | D:3      | Gained mutation: You can spit poison. [potion of mutation]
  4153 | D:4      | Found a glowing drain.
  4196 | Sewer    | Entered a sewer
  4263 | Sewer    | Reached skill level 1 in Conjurations
  4988 | D:4      | Reached skill level 8 in Earth Magic
  4988 | D:4      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 36/36 MP: 0/11
  5087 | D:4      | Found a shattered altar of Ashenzari.
  5099 | D:4      | Found a shadowy altar of Dithmenos.
  5212 | D:4      | Found Ixin's Armour Emporium.
  5323 | D:4      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  5332 | Temple   | Entered the Ecumenical Temple
  5347 | Temple   | Became a worshipper of Vehumet
  5585 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  5917 | D:4      | Reached skill level 9 in Earth Magic
  6215 | D:5      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 23/41 MP: 6/12
  6646 | D:5      | Found a glowing silver altar of Zin.
  6867 | D:5      | Reached skill level 10 in Earth Magic
  7073 | D:5      | Noticed Duvessa
  7073 | D:5      | Noticed Dowan
  7078 | D:5      | Killed Duvessa
  7160 | D:5      | Killed Dowan
  7482 | D:5      | Reached skill level 5 in Conjurations
  7659 | D:6      | Acquired Vehumet's first power
  7659 | D:6      | Offered knowledge of Flame Tongue by Vehumet.
  7706 | D:6      | Found a glowing golden altar of the Shining One.
  7742 | D:6      | Noticed lifemoon's ghost (experienced VSFi)
  7872 | D:6      | Noticed a two-headed ogre
  7947 | D:6      | Reached skill level 11 in Earth Magic
  8151 | D:6      | Killed lifemoon's ghost
  8151 | D:6      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 45/45 MP: 6/13
  8585 | D:6      | Killed a two-headed ogre
  8585 | D:6      | Reached skill level 12 in Earth Magic
  8653 | D:6      | Found a deep blue altar of Sif Muna.
  9646 | D:7      | Found a sparkling altar of Nemelex Xobeh.
  9900 | D:7      | Offered knowledge of Magic Dart by Vehumet.
 10238 | D:6      | Reached skill level 13 in Earth Magic
 11164 | D:8      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 50/50 MP: 10/14
 12129 | D:8      | Found an ancient bone altar of Kikubaaqudgha.
 12639 | D:8      | Reached skill level 14 in Earth Magic
 12904 | D:9      | Offered knowledge of Dazzling Spray by Vehumet.
 13400 | D:9      | Acquired Vehumet's second power
 13817 | D:9      | Noticed Erolcha
 13820 | D:9      | Killed Erolcha
 13820 | D:9      | Reached skill level 15 in Earth Magic
 13914 | D:9      | Offered knowledge of Ignite Poison by Vehumet.
 14299 | D:10     | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon
 14405 | D:10     | Reached XP level 11. HP: 54/54 MP: 5/15
 14772 | D:10     | Acquired Vehumet's third power
 14844 | D:10     | Found a staircase to the Lair.
 15762 | D:10     | Noticed a cyclops
 15980 | D:11     | Reached skill level 10 in Conjurations
 16033 | D:11     | Reached skill level 16 in Earth Magic
 16037 | D:11     | Offered knowledge of Fireball by Vehumet.
 16051 | D:11     | Learned a level 5 spell: Fireball
 16485 | Lair:1   | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts
 17034 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 1 in Fire Magic
 17664 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 17 in Earth Magic
 17861 | Lair:1   | Identified a scroll of acquirement
 18077 | Lair:1   | Offered knowledge of Fulminant Prism by Vehumet.
 18503 | Lair:1   | Reached XP level 12. HP: 59/59 MP: 8/16
 21030 | Lair:2   | Reached skill level 18 in Earth Magic
 21706 | Lair:2   | Reached skill level 1 in Evocations
 22182 | Lair:3   | Offered knowledge of Poison Arrow by Vehumet.
 22217 | Lair:3   | Noticed a seven-headed hydra
 22226 | Lair:3   | Killed a seven-headed hydra
 24093 | Lair:3   | Reached XP level 13. HP: 50/63 MP: 4/19
 26307 | Lair:5   | Offered knowledge of Orb of Destruction by Vehumet.
 26555 | Lair:5   | Learned a level 7 spell: Orb of Destruction
 26592 | Lair:5   | Reached skill level 19 in Earth Magic
 27381 | Lair:5   | Reached skill level 5 in Spellcasting
 27794 | Lair:5   | Hired Neissiso the naga for 161 gold.
 27988 | Lair:6   | Your ally Neissiso died
 29092 | Lair:6   | Found a staircase to the Shoals.
 29369 | Lair:6   | Found a hole to the Spider Nest.
 29682 | Lair:6   | Lost mutation: You can spit poison. [helix card]
 30330 | Lair:6   | Offered knowledge of Delayed Fireball by Vehumet.
 32564 | Lair:6   | Gained mutation: Your large and strong wings let you fly indefinitely. [Gargoyle growth]
 32564 | Lair:6   | Reached XP level 14. HP: 35/68 MP: 11/23
 32755 | Lair:7   | Reached skill level 5 in Evocations
 33159 | Lair:7   | Gained mutation: You are agile. (Dex +2) [potion of beneficial mutation]
 33733 | Lair:7   | Reached skill level 20 in Earth Magic
 34425 | Lair:8   | Entered Level 8 of the Lair of Beasts
 35483 | Lair:7   | Learned a level 7 spell: Delayed Fireball
 35997 | Lair:8   | Reached skill level 5 in Fire Magic
 36796 | Lair:8   | Found a viscous altar of Jiyva.
 36797 | Lair:8   | Found a staircase to the Slime Pits.
 38530 | Lair:7   | Learned a level 4 spell: Petrify
 39175 | Lair:8   | HP: 3/68 [death yak (6)]
 39178 | Lair:8   | Reached XP level 15. HP: 4/72 MP: 24/27
 39250 | Lair:8   | Starved to death

Vault maps used:
D:1:      dpeg_arrival_stonehenge_8_columns
D:2:      serial_bayou_lagoon_a
D:3:      overflow_temple_1_default, lemuel_coloured_pillars_altar,
          serial_bayou, serial_bayou_pond_a, serial_bayou_pond_a,
          serial_bayou_crossing, serial_bayou_pond_e, serial_bayou_shore_b,
          serial_bayou_pond_a
D:4:      grunt_dithmenos_shadows, cheibrodos_ashenzari_chains,
          minmay_temple_entry_poolview, first_bread, serial_shops, shop,
          portal_sewer_entry_f
D:5:      nicolae_overflow_crystal_walls, uniq_duvessa
D:6:      kennysheep_mini, basic_altar
D:7:      nemelex_deck, grunt_livestock
D:8:      basic_altar
D:9:      uniq_erolcha
D:10:     minmay_lair_entry_lava
D:11:     uniq_psyche
Temple:   circular_temple_pool_12
Lair:1:   beast_lair_carwin_4, grunt_megastairs_4, serial_bayou_shore_b
Lair:2:   worms_lemuel
Lair:3:   serial_bayou_shore_a
Lair:6:   elwin_shoals_entry_stream, spider_nest_entry_webs,
          bh_autumn_forest_stairs
Lair:7:   grunt_megastairs_3, serial_bayou_shore_b
Lair:8:   hangedman_lair_in_review, dpeg_slime_entry_enclosed_altar
Sewer:    sewer_big_baddie

Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Unarmed           |    10 |       |       |       |       ||    10
       Dagger            |    33 |     3 |       |       |       ||    36
       Quarterstaff      |       |     8 |       |       |       ||     8
       Trident           |       |    36 |    27 |       |       ||    63
       War axe           |       |       |    77 |       |       ||    77
       Staff             |       |       |    12 |     4 |    54 ||    70
       Battleaxe         |       |       |       |    99 |    18 ||   117
 Cast: Sandblast         |    74 |    59 |    63 |   262 |    21 ||   479
       Stone Arrow       |       |    17 |    83 |   226 |   245 ||   571
       Lee's Rapid Decon |       |     1 |     2 |    48 |   184 ||   235
       Fireball          |       |       |       |     5 |    27 ||    32
       Orb of Destructio |       |       |       |       |     6 ||     6
       Petrify           |       |       |       |       |     5 ||     5
 Abil: Spit Poison       |       |       |       |     1 |       ||     1
       Fly               |       |       |       |       |     1 ||     1
Evoke: Wand              |       |       |       |     3 |    32 ||    35
       Deck              |       |       |       |       |     5 ||     5
       Stone of tremors  |       |       |       |       |     2 ||     2
  Use: Scroll            |     4 |     8 |     9 |    16 |    15 ||    52
       Potion            |       |     3 |     1 |     5 |     8 ||    17
 Stab: Confused          |       |       |       |       |     1 ||     1
  Eat: Fruit             |     4 |       |       |     4 |       ||     8
       Chunk             |     6 |    10 |    14 |    48 |    55 ||   133
       Pizza             |       |       |     1 |    10 |     2 ||    13
       Bread ration      |       |       |     1 |       |     9 ||    10
       Meat ration       |       |       |     1 |     1 |     3 ||     5
       Beef jerky        |       |       |     1 |     4 |     2 ||     7
       Royal jelly       |       |       |     1 |       |       ||     1

This is probably only the second or third time I've ever seen anybody starve in a live game, and the first time it wasn't something like, forgetting to eat before autotraveling to another branch. It's hard to see inaction in a morgue, but I'd chalk this up to a combination of slow-ish play, underleveling spellcasting, and overusing high-level spells and 5.

What I don't get is why the game needed to starve this player. Casting high-level spells early doesn't seem like a broken advantage considering the lopsided skill distribution you end up with, nor does spending 40,000 turns on the way to Lair:8. Even if these behaviors do need to be limited, hunger sure takes a long time to actually punish the player's behavior.

jejorda2, while I agree that automated hunger management might make the game more pleasant for good players, part of the reason "don't spam high hunger abilities" is "well ingrained" in experienced players is because of active engagement with the hunger system. If it gets shoved into the background through automation and abstraction, it might make it harder for new players to internalize Crawl's expectation's re: managing hunger costs.

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 47

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd December 2013, 19:12

Post Wednesday, 12th August 2015, 21:46

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

This is a perfect example of hunger killing someone that SHOULD have starved. They gave themselves few options to kill shit in the time they had based on their defenses, and had them all at high hunger while going NUTS on Earth Magic for no perceivable reason.

Game provided plenty of food. Duke ate 55 chunks, 9 bread rations, 3 meat rations, 2 beef jerky, and 2 pieces of pizza in 15k turns from XL13 - XL15. That's 66,000 satiety in permafood and 55,000 in chunks. The chunks along were enough to keep him going despite taking 17k turns to clear L3-L8.

Hit level 5 in SC on Lair 5 - really? Got only 8 SC total while getting 20 earth. Cast LRD 184 times from 13-15 at a cost of over 36,000 satiety. Couldn't spare any xp for defenses either. At XL15 had 0 fighting, 1.5 dodging, 19/12/0 defenses. This meant they probably had to use high level spells to keep anything that got near them from ripping them a new one. And even then those defenses and skills mean a lot of time healing.

At the point you've eaten 16 permafood in 5 lair levels maybe you need to consider your life choices. They had to notice it, they didn't care or took a risk, and they paid for it. It would have been unfair to good players to NOT to kill this player. Regardless of your knowledge of spell hunger excessive permafood use is a red flag you have a bad build or are playing stupidly. And even then they would have been fine if they had 100%ed SC for a brief time when they started to get in trouble.

This was a player the game needed to kill. If it hadn't been hunger it would have been another one of your suggested replacements. If you had added the suggested stat drain on too-high spell usage this player would not have made it nearly as far as they did.

For this message the author araganzar has received thanks: 2
Rast, Sandman25

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Wednesday, 12th August 2015, 22:43

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

archaeo wrote:Decent guess, Sandman25, but not quite.


Really? I believe Shatter would be castable with brilliance. No weapon skill, no defense, low spellcasting, everything as expected. This is what I call "Shatter rush". Though I suspect the character would not starve if it was possible to eat poisonous chunks.
User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 1788

Joined: Saturday, 29th June 2013, 16:52

Post Wednesday, 12th August 2015, 23:25

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

That's certainly a correct assessment of why this player lost the game, but,

araganzar wrote:It would have been unfair to good players to NOT to kill this player.

Why is that? And, if it's true, why is hunger the best way to ensure that fairness?

It's unclear to me why Duke's play was so abusive that the game needed to end it rather than waiting for a monster to kill him. If Crawl had no hunger costs, Duke probably still would've lost with this character; with just 27 MP, no channeling, and terrible defenses, Duke would've exhausted his resources quickly using his high-level spells and would be left defenseless. I've seen several players succeed and even win despite making terrible tactical and strategic choices; why is it only when players make mistakes with the overuse of mechanics like spells or abilities that the game needs to shut it down with starvation?

All that said, if this kind of behavior really is unfair and must be punished, hunger seems like a lousy way to go about doing it. At XL 13, Duke still had abundant food supplies despite making some serious mistakes, and it probably wasn't until XL 15, thousands of turns later, when it became clear that he had made a critical, game-ending error; there's so much food in the game that I wouldn't be surprised at all if players who starved were operating under the mistaken impression that the next chunk or ration would always be around the corner. Given the abundance of food in the early game, it's not hard to imagine that starving new players might just think they ran into some bad luck.

If we really want players to not make these mistakes, we should either prevent them altogether (higher XL requirements for spell levels, put exh on an XP timer, etc.) or the punishment should occur far closer in time to the mistake, as with the stat draining mechanics you pointed out. That way, at least, the player will have a better idea of what caused their death, which makes it easier to avoid in the future.

Sandman25 wrote:Though I suspect the character would not starve if it was possible to eat poisonous chunks.

It's possible, but you're talking about a rather small set of corner cases; if one is playing so suboptimally that they starve to death, it's unlikely that the addition of edible poisonous chunks is really going to improve their chances by that much.

For this message the author archaeo has received thanks:
all before

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 300

Joined: Thursday, 1st May 2014, 13:13

Post Thursday, 13th August 2015, 00:18

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

Crawl is designed to be pretty non-challenging in terms of long-term strategy--you have to screw up pretty badly to end up with an unwinnable build. This makes more builds to be viable, and is less frustrating because the game doesn't screw you after you've invested a huge amount of time in a character. (I'm not saying I totally agree with this design choice, but it is the way it is.) So yah, I agree with archaeo, there's no particular reason people who make bad strategic decisions in terms of spellcasting should be punished any worse--and in a different way-- than anyone else.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Thursday, 13th August 2015, 01:13

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

all before wrote:So yah, I agree with archaeo, there's no particular reason people who make bad strategic decisions in terms of spellcasting should be punished any worse--and in a different way-- than anyone else.


So you and archaeo are suggesting to remove hunger and wait for a monster to kill the character who has Shatter and Vehumet on Lair 8, right? What can I say? Good luck to the Orb of Fire and/or pack of Draconians :)
I doubt that the death was unavoidable, with those defenses it was possible to leave Lair 7-8 and get to D11-12 with last rations to find Orcish Mines or continue exploring main Dungeon.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8786

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Thursday, 13th August 2015, 02:45

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

I don't see how spell hunger or the food system killed that character in the first place, all it had to do was eat chunks

Spider Stomper

Posts: 233

Joined: Monday, 20th December 2010, 20:58

Post Thursday, 13th August 2015, 12:31

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

Everybody is overlooking the obvious. The real problem is that high level spells were designed to be ballanced by strategic costs not tactical costs. They are supposedly balanced by the huge investment of experience, This is a mistake and requires a fix to keep them in check. Just balance the high level spells tactically and there is no problem, and no food is not a good tactical balance mechanism. I would suggest that high level spells have "miscasts" even on successful castings. That is to say you can still get your tornado effect, but you still get hit with a miscast effect. Here is a spitball proposal:

the level of the spell * 10 is the percentage that a miscast effect will take place on any casting. The probability is lowered by spellcasting*10/3.

So magic skill like charms, fire magic, etc increase your chances of succesfully casting a spell while spellcasting lowers your chances of bad things happening to you when you cast spells.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Thursday, 13th August 2015, 12:38

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

acvar wrote:Everybody is overlooking the obvious. The real problem is that high level spells were designed to be ballanced by strategic costs not tactical costs. They are supposedly balanced by the huge investment of experience, This is a mistake and requires a fix to keep them in check. Just balance the high level spells tactically and there is no problem, and no food is not a good tactical balance mechanism. I would suggest that high level spells have "miscasts" even on successful castings. That is to say you can still get your tornado effect, but you still get hit with a miscast effect. Here is a spitball proposal:

the level of the spell * 10 is the percentage that a miscast effect will take place on any casting. The probability is lowered by spellcasting*10/3.

So magic skill like charms, fire magic, etc increase your chances of succesfully casting a spell while spellcasting lowers your chances of bad things happening to you when you cast spells.


Have you read the thread? It contains a starvation death. High level spells are balanced by both strategic costs (permafood) and tactical costs (starving in battle). Would you like to have miscast effects for attacking with triple sword or bardiche which can be reduced by training fighting?

Spider Stomper

Posts: 233

Joined: Monday, 20th December 2010, 20:58

Post Thursday, 13th August 2015, 13:02

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

Sandman25 wrote:
acvar wrote:Everybody is overlooking the obvious. The real problem is that high level spells were designed to be ballanced by strategic costs not tactical costs. They are supposedly balanced by the huge investment of experience, This is a mistake and requires a fix to keep them in check. Just balance the high level spells tactically and there is no problem, and no food is not a good tactical balance mechanism. I would suggest that high level spells have "miscasts" even on successful castings. That is to say you can still get your tornado effect, but you still get hit with a miscast effect. Here is a spitball proposal:

the level of the spell * 10 is the percentage that a miscast effect will take place on any casting. The probability is lowered by spellcasting*10/3.

So magic skill like charms, fire magic, etc increase your chances of succesfully casting a spell while spellcasting lowers your chances of bad things happening to you when you cast spells.


Have you read the thread? It contains a starvation death. High level spells are balanced by both strategic costs (permafood) and tactical costs (starving in battle). Would you like to have miscast effects for attacking with triple sword or bardiche which can be reduced by training fighting?


Did you really just compare the power level of a tripple sword with firestorm??? Are you really that clueless? I mean at least talk about something with similar damage output like javelins of penetration, and yes I think throwing is currently too powerful.

The fact that a character dies to starvation does not make food and spellhunger a good mechanic. It is slow, tedious, far withdrawn from the actual behavior we are trying to prevent, and all characters, even those that don't cast high level spells must deal with its bullshit. It does not get much worse then that for a game mechanic.

Sar

User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6418

Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48

Post Thursday, 13th August 2015, 13:08

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

IMO a good triple sword is a much better weapon than Firestorm outside of Ziggurats, but I imagine most people will disagree.

For this message the author Sar has received thanks: 2
nago, Sandman25

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1694

Joined: Tuesday, 31st March 2015, 20:34

Post Thursday, 13th August 2015, 13:15

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

I agree with that, only I'd put a most of the time in there. Even outside of zigs there are times when a firestorm is great, but yes, overall large melee weapons are the best way to kill stuff in crawl.

I feel like the tavern goes back and forth on this, largely depending on what the topic is about. In topics about how spells are too good, everyone says melee weapons are best. In topics about how melee weapons are too good, suddenly the opposite becomes true.

It's like the tavern is the devil's advocate. Or just the devil...

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Thursday, 13th August 2015, 13:38

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

acvar wrote:Did you really just compare the power level of a tripple sword with firestorm??? Are you really that clueless? I mean at least talk about something with similar damage output like javelins of penetration, and yes I think throwing is currently too powerful.


Yes, I did. HE of Oka can have triple sword at min delay by Lair 8 and spam it indefinitely, good luck doing it with Fire Storm which takes almost 3 times more XP and requires high Int also. Mf with Bardiche is probably even more hilarious.
  Code:
 18401 | Lair:4   | Reached skill level 26 in Polearms

http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/antiskillro ... 112349.txt

The fact that a character dies to starvation does not make food and spellhunger a good mechanic. It is slow, tedious, far withdrawn from the actual behavior we are trying to prevent, and all characters, even those that don't cast high level spells must deal with its bullshit. It does not get much worse then that for a game mechanic.


I guess you have never tried to play antiskillrobin. I have (training Summoning only). Spell hunger is a huge limiting factor, it makes player do exactly what you want - it prevents player from spamming high level spells without a chance to randomly kill (which you are suggesting).

Sar

User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6418

Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48

Post Thursday, 13th August 2015, 13:49

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

I don't think your antiskillrobin example is fair, Sandman. I mean, when people talk about spellhunger being relevant they usually take the fact spellcasting exist into equation, and I don't mean training Spc high enough to completely eliminate hunger.

For this message the author Sar has received thanks:
Rast

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Thursday, 13th August 2015, 13:51

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

Sar wrote:I don't think your antiskillrobin example is fair, Sandman. I mean, when people talk about spellhunger being relevant they usually take the fact spellcasting exist into equation, and I don't mean training Spc high enough to completely eliminate hunger.


They train spellcasting exactly because it limits spell hunger. Remove spell hunger and you will get antiskillrobin as close to optimal skilling for some characters. 1000 hunger from level 9 spell is no joke, two casts and you are starving.

Sar

User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6418

Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48

Post Thursday, 13th August 2015, 14:01

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

I'm not sure, not only spell slots and MP somewhat important, but at some point four points of Spc become cheaper than one point of a spell school you train, and the effect on success and power is the same.
Last edited by Sar on Thursday, 13th August 2015, 15:13, edited 1 time in total.

For this message the author Sar has received thanks: 2
duvessa, nago

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Thursday, 13th August 2015, 14:04

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

Sar wrote:I'm not sure, not only spell slots and MP somewhat important, but at some point at four points of Spc become cheaper than one point of a spell school you train, and the effect on success and power is the same.


We have GrEE in the thread, -1 aptitude for spellcasting, +2 for earth and Vehumet to restore MP. Crawl does not make it obvious when it is better to train spellcasting instead of magic schools but I guess Spellcasting 8.8 and Earth 20.1 would not be too far from optimal on Lair 8 here.

Sar

User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6418

Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48

Post Thursday, 13th August 2015, 15:20

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

I would actually have Spc really close to that, something like 10, only because I like round numbers. Would have much less Earth though, probably some defences and a weapon (not necessarily skill) so I could tab those rat packs instead of shattering them or whatever.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Thursday, 13th August 2015, 15:28

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

Sar wrote:I would actually have Spc really close to that, something like 10, only because I like round numbers. Would have much less Earth though, probably some defences and a weapon (not necessarily skill) so I could tab those rat packs instead of shattering them or whatever.


You can ignore everything except spellcasting and earth in my argument, with optimal play you would have Earth 20/Spellcasting 8 after getting 1-2 rune, not in Lair. As extra bonus you would have more MP and spell slots from higher XL so spellcasting could be even lower than that.

Edit. I mean who needs spellcasting if it does not reduce spell hunger.

Sar

User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6418

Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48

Post Thursday, 13th August 2015, 15:55

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

Are you saying Spellcasting 8 is too high for Lair 8 optimal play-wise? I mean, I don't know about optimal play so whatever, sure.

About hunger: I've died to starvation multiple times, probably the most amusing one was a TrCK with 14 runes. That was pretty funny IMO.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Thursday, 13th August 2015, 16:01

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

Sar wrote:Are you saying Spellcasting 8 is too high for Lair 8 optimal play-wise? I mean, I don't know about optimal play so whatever, sure.

About hunger: I've died to starvation multiple times, probably the most amusing one was a TrCK with 14 runes. That was pretty funny IMO.


I am saying that Spellcasting 8 and Earth 20 will be normal (close to optimal) in hungerless crawl no matter at what stage they are reached.

Yes, this is why I've never been in extended as Tr, hunger scares me a lot.

Sar

User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6418

Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48

Post Thursday, 13th August 2015, 16:11

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

I don't think I can agree but I really don't want to argue about that either.

Sandman25 wrote:Yes, this is why I've never been in extended as Tr

The context: I spend stupid amounts of time in Hell, especially in Tar, because I tried to open all the treasure rooms on that map where it requires lots of digging. Also cast lots of Statue Form and I think even Borg? Somebody familiar with IRC magic can probably find the morgue.

For this message the author Sar has received thanks:
Sandman25

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3160

Joined: Sunday, 5th August 2012, 14:52

Post Thursday, 13th August 2015, 17:24

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

dowan wrote:I feel like the tavern goes back and forth on this, largely depending on what the topic is about. In topics about how spells are too good, everyone says melee weapons are best. In topics about how melee weapons are too good, suddenly the opposite becomes true.

I think this is because many posters are prone to speak in absolutes, but the quality of conjurations and melee and the relationship between the two change based on many contextual factors. Absolutes about these things are often going to be incorrect.

For this message the author Lasty has received thanks:
Sandman25
User avatar

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1194

Joined: Friday, 18th April 2014, 01:41

Post Thursday, 13th August 2015, 17:35

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

So I just played basically the same character as DukeNuker to see if I could actually put food pressure on myself without intentionally using bad tactics (like LRDing monsters for no reason when I can cast stone arrow). No skills but earth and sc for MP and spell levels. I don't think taking no SC at all is a good idea in 0.17 with the MP changes, but stone arrow is hungerless at like 8 sc anyway, and Sandblast with stones is just as good and there are hundreds on the floor. I did have a manual of spellcasting, which gives me about 5 levels of spellcasting I wouldn't have had otherwise, I think, but I did not use spells above stone arrow a whole lot because most of them are bad until you get Shatter.

I even took Sif to make sure I needed to eat as much as possible :^)
Made sure to channel for MP unless I needed to rest for HP, not that I was ever in any real danger at any time.

Anyway, right now I have 22 Earth, 14 Sc on L:8 and Shatter at 30% without any Wizardry, wearing the Robe of Night, at XL14. I do have +6 int from a ring and a mutation. Game has been completely trivial, don't think I ever really went below 50% HP. I imagine this might be a bit tricker with TeAE because AE is so bad compared to EE and you will be under more pressure due to the massive noise associated with Lightning Bolt, but at least I will get Tornado a bit sooner. Glaciate and FS require twice the XP so Firestorm and Glaciate in Lair are probably not really feasible, perhaps for Te and Vehumet.

Here is my action chart:

  Code:
Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Spear             |    58 |     6 |       |       |       ||    64
       Unarmed           |     2 |       |       |       |       ||     2
       Flail             |       |    16 |       |       |       ||    16
       Whip              |       |   164 |   243 |   356 |   146 ||   909
       Hand axe          |       |       |       |    16 |       ||    16
Throw: Stone             |       |       |     2 |     5 |       ||     7
 Cast: Sandblast         |    42 |    50 |    31 |    48 |    69 ||   240
       Stoneskin         |       |     2 |     3 |    31 |    21 ||    57
       Stone Arrow       |       |     6 |    40 |   269 |   181 ||   496
       Petrify           |       |       |     5 |     3 |       ||     8
       Lee's Rapid Decon |       |       |     5 |    21 |    18 ||    44
       Iron Shot         |       |       |       |       |    13 ||    13
       Shatter           |       |       |       |       |     4 ||     4
Invok: Channel Energy    |       |       |    36 |   257 |   272 ||   565
 Abil: Spit Poison       |       |       |     1 |       |       ||     1
       Evoke Teleportati |       |       |       |     1 |       ||     1
Evoke: Wand              |       |     2 |     5 |     4 |     1 ||    12
  Use: Scroll            |     1 |     1 |     9 |    17 |    13 ||    41
       Potion            |       |       |     2 |     1 |     2 ||     5
 Stab: Sleeping          |     1 |     4 |     2 |     1 |     1 ||     9
  Eat: Chunk             |     2 |     7 |    17 |    56 |    54 ||   136
       Pizza             |       |       |     1 |     1 |     1 ||     3
       Beef jerky        |       |       |     1 |       |     1 ||     2
       Bread ration      |       |       |       |     2 |       ||     2
       Meat ration       |       |       |       |     1 |       ||     1
       Fruit             |       |       |       |       |     3 ||     3
       Royal jelly       |       |       |       |       |     1 ||     1


As you can see I used 0 skill melee with elec whip (though Sandblast + stones would have done for the slightly less trivial enemies) and didn't use LRD a whole lot. LRD is fairly mediocre imo, it has worse targetting than fireball, tends to hit you at times, and dosen't do a lot of damage, not to mention Fire/Conjurations enhancers are abundant unlike Earth enhancers. Used 3 rations in total, most of which were due to autoexplore walking me around the map to check out corners long after the map was cleared of enemies to provide chunks. Maybe I should take no sc at all, but I think it would be a bit restrictive on MP. Anyway, spell hunger did basically nothing, what a surprise. I'll try something similar with the other elementalists later on but the results will probably be similar except AE will frustrate me more. DukeNuker probably starved due to unneeded LRD use and eating rations when it was not necessary - a slightly better skilled character with like 10 sc would not be in any food trouble and would have a better MP situation.

It is a little better-played than DukeNuker's character but not fundamentally different. Should the game have starved this character to death?
remove food

For this message the author tabstorm has received thanks: 3
archaeo, duvessa, Sar

Spider Stomper

Posts: 233

Joined: Monday, 20th December 2010, 20:58

Post Thursday, 13th August 2015, 17:53

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

Sar wrote:IMO a good triple sword is a much better weapon than Firestorm outside of Ziggurats, but I imagine most people will disagree.

I am willing to buy this argument if your are willing to admit that a rolled up newspaper is more POWERFUL then an elephant gun. After all if I am hunting flies in my apartment a rolled up newspaper is more useful.

Sandman25 wrote:Yes, I did. HE of Oka can have triple sword at min delay by Lair 8 and spam it indefinitely, good luck doing it with Fire Storm which takes almost 3 times more XP and requires high Int also. Mf with Bardiche is probably even more hilarious

Well done you just proved that a triple sword is more efficient than firestorm not that it is more powerful which is what was being argued. Nice red herring.

Lets get this straight. Most encounters in crawl are vs popcorn. The encounters pose no real threat to the character. When that is the case the weapon that costs the least is the best weapon to use. Firestorm costs more mana, more time(against a single foe), more experience to get it reliable, more nutrition, and more noise so of course it is worse vs all the popcorn you face through most of the game. But when you are facing off against several smiters and something with torment then you are going to pull out the big guns because all those extra costs don't mean sqaut when you are actually being threatened.

If hungerless crawl makes spellcasting skill pointles there are 2 easy solutions.

1. Remove spellcasting. This is actally a very good option since it is not at all intuative what this skill does.
2. Repurpose it to do something else. You know like I suggested in my previous post.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Thursday, 13th August 2015, 18:03

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

tabstorm wrote:Anyway, spell hunger did basically nothing, what a surprise.


Are you serious here? You have 14 spellcasting on Lair 8, it's like training 26 polearms on merfolk and then writing "Bardiche of freezing kills anything in Orcish Mines, what a surprise".
For spell hunger to do anything, you should probably ignore (or at least undertrain) spellcasting and actually start having hunger from casting spells :)

Edit. Also this:

  Code:
 Cast: Sandblast         |    42 |    50 |    31 |    48 |    69 ||   240
       Stoneskin         |       |     2 |     3 |    31 |    21 ||    57
       Stone Arrow       |       |     6 |    40 |   269 |   181 ||   496
       Petrify           |       |       |     5 |     3 |       ||     8
       Lee's Rapid Decon |       |       |     5 |    21 |    18 ||    44
       Iron Shot         |       |       |       |       |    13 ||    13
       Shatter           |       |       |       |       |     4 ||     


Invert Iron Shot and Stone Arrow and then tell us that spell hunger does not exist ;)

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Thursday, 13th August 2015, 18:11

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

acvar wrote:Well done you just proved that a triple sword is more efficient than firestorm not that it is more powerful which is what was being argued. Nice red herring.

Lets get this straight. Most encounters in crawl are vs popcorn. The encounters pose no real threat to the character. When that is the case the weapon that costs the least is the best weapon to use. Firestorm costs more mana, more time(against a single foe), more experience to get it reliable, more nutrition, and more noise so of course it is worse vs all the popcorn you face through most of the game. But when you are facing off against several smiters and something with torment then you are going to pull out the big guns because all those extra costs don't mean sqaut when you are actually being threatened.


As you probably know from my signature I am a big fan of level 9 spells in 3 rune games. Yet it does not mean that you have Fire Storm when entering Vaults so in this context triple sword etc. is more powerful and game-breaking (please don't argue, Fire Storm is not even online yet). This is why I suggested to punish use of triple swords with low fighting like you were suggesting to punish use of fire storm with low spellcasting. If you have reasons to refuse my suggestion (like triple sword has high XP cost and thus is allowed to be powerful, you still need to find the item, there are gods who support its use, it is not absolutely safe etc.), you can use the same reasons to refuse your suggestion.
User avatar

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1194

Joined: Friday, 18th April 2014, 01:41

Post Thursday, 13th August 2015, 18:35

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

Yes iron shot would be worse because it misses all the time. Stone arrow was more MP-efficient, since I would kill enemies with 3-4 stone arrows (but it would also take 3-4 iron shots due to very poor accuracy). Low-power iron shot is truly pitiful.

Like I said I would have to use intentionally bad tactics. Without any conj he would've had like 10 sc - I don't think 4 sc is the difference between starvation and "no problems whatsoever".
remove food

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Thursday, 13th August 2015, 18:38

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

tabstorm wrote: Like I said I would have to use intentionally bad tactics. Without any conj he would've had like 10 sc - I don't think 4 sc is the difference between starvation and "no problems whatsoever".


6 sc * 20 Int = 120 satiation points. Multiply by 496 (Stone Arrow) and you will get 11+ rations.

Edit. Oh, you have Int 27 (http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Tabstorm/Tabstorm.txt), another reason why you don't feel hunger problems.

Edit2.
Seriously, why didn't you provide this table? You seem to have no hunger even with LRD (one # means you have hunger 1-2 satiation points IIRC).

  Code:
 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Sandblast             Erth           ######       0%          1    None
b - Stoneskin             Trmt/Erth      ######..     1%          2    None
c - Stone Arrow           Conj/Erth      ######       1%          3    None
d - Petrify               Trmt/Erth      ######..     1%          4    None
e - Lee's Rapid Deconstr  Erth           #######...   0%          5    #......
f - Shatter               Erth           #######...   30%         9    #######
g - Iron Shot             Conj/Erth      ######....   6%          6    ####...
h - Repel Missiles        Chrm/Air       ###...       4%          2    None
i - Swiftness             Chrm/Air       ###.....     4%          2    None
j - Apportation           Tloc           ###.......   2%          1    None
k - Blink                 Tloc           N/A          4%          2    None
l - Phase Shift           Tloc           ###.......   78%         5    #......
User avatar

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1194

Joined: Friday, 18th April 2014, 01:41

Post Thursday, 13th August 2015, 18:42

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

When I do this with TeAE I'll stop at 10 sc then. I bet I will still eat <5 rations.
remove food

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Thursday, 13th August 2015, 18:44

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

tabstorm wrote:When I do this with TeAE I'll stop at 10 sc then. I bet I will still eat <5 rations.


I am not sure what you are trying to prove. That characters with low spellcasting/Int don't starve when trying to spam high level spells?
User avatar

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1194

Joined: Friday, 18th April 2014, 01:41

Post Thursday, 13th August 2015, 18:47

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

That there's so many chunks in the game that you should never actually starve or come close to running out of permafood.
Last edited by tabstorm on Thursday, 13th August 2015, 18:47, edited 1 time in total.
remove food

For this message the author tabstorm has received thanks:
Rast

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Thursday, 13th August 2015, 18:50

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

tabstorm wrote:That there's so many chunks in the game that you should never actually starve or come close to running out of permafood.


They are not reliable IMHO. Lair is full of poisonous monsters, I had to eat permafood in my antiskillrobin game too.
User avatar

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1194

Joined: Friday, 18th April 2014, 01:41

Post Thursday, 13th August 2015, 18:52

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

Even if there were no spell hunger you wouldn't go full antiskillrobin. You want sc for spell levels and MP. I'm actually at the limit for spell levels on that character right now. and still need LCS, Passage, Servitor, Regen, etc.
remove food

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Thursday, 13th August 2015, 18:56

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

tabstorm wrote:Even if there were no spell hunger you wouldn't go full antiskillrobin. You want sc for spell levels and MP. I'm actually at the limit for spell levels on that character right now. and still need LCS, Passage, Servitor, Regen, etc.


This is already off topic but I am not sure you need all this right now. Maybe better get Phase Shift below 78% first? :)

Sar

User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6418

Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48

Post Thursday, 13th August 2015, 19:15

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

@acvar: my shitty and irrelevant opinion on Fire Storm is that it does impressive damage when you rush for it in a regular game and get it like before Vaults, but when you take with it on postend content, where the proverbial elephants of Crawl reside, it feels annoyingly underpowered. Every other thing seems to have fire immunity, so FS does only 45% damage to it. But hey, the AoE is big, so you can do mediocre damage to multiple targets! After failing to kill basic balrugs in 3-4 storms on my FeSomething with FStorm I'd rather have a triple sword vs. Cerebov or even Antaeus that spend 10 minutes of real time storming, retreating, channeling, rinse, repeat.

To completely destroy my credibility (as if I ever had some): I actually prefer Glaciate because at least it does decent damage even if the thing is immune. But I only used Glaciate in like 2 or 3 games.

Edit: also I guess maybe FS is good if you have tons of Int and multiple enhancers etc., but that's too many "ifs" for me.

For this message the author Sar has received thanks:
Sandman25
User avatar

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1194

Joined: Friday, 18th April 2014, 01:41

Post Thursday, 13th August 2015, 19:24

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

Tornado is the best L9 imo

Tons of enemies resist shatter. FS and glaciate take forever to get usable and then once you get to extended tons of enemies resist those too. Nothing resists Tornado, but being an AE isn't much fun due to excessive noise. The impact of noise on spellcasters is underrated imo
remove food

For this message the author tabstorm has received thanks: 2
dowan, Sandman25

Sar

User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6418

Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48

Post Thursday, 13th August 2015, 19:29

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

Yeah, Tornado is obviously great. I used Shatter like once and I didn't feel quite as bad as it would seem, maybe because I had good melee or LCS.
User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 4435

Joined: Tuesday, 11th January 2011, 12:28

Post Thursday, 13th August 2015, 19:36

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

Hi friends, I'll remind y'all that this is getting hugely offtopic. Is there anything to add to the "let's remove hunger" thing (I suspect that the devs are aware that hunger bugs folks) or can we move the "how to not starve with low spellcasting" discussion to Advice?
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.
PreviousNext

Return to Game Design Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 29 guests

cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.