But seriously, remove hunger


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

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Post Thursday, 20th August 2015, 17:30

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

yesno wrote:
Sandman25 wrote: Lucky melee character can fight non-stop from Lair onwards, no caster can do that.


because of MP, that remains true without regard to hunger though... it's dangerous to specialize too deeply in a limited resource. by the end of lair, a caster background should probably have diversified into some melee or ranged skills. there are no hard classes in crawl and magic and melee are resources available in varying degrees to all characters... the question is what role does that resource play in overall strategy?


Indeed. If we don't mind melee characters fighting non-stop, why do we need spell hunger? As you've just told casters cannot fight non-stop due to MP anyway.

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Post Thursday, 20th August 2015, 17:39

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

casters can fight non-stop, they just can't cast non-stop. we need spell hunger (or preferably a superior replacement for it) if we want further limitations on certain ranges of abilities in addition to MP, such that I can cast basic magical attacks a number of times limited only by my MP, but can also cast limited use abilities that drain my MP. if we don't want those additional limitations, either because those abilities aren't actually powerful enough to warrant it, or because we want to enforce some kind of design parity between melee and spellcasting actions, i guess we don't need such a system.
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Post Thursday, 20th August 2015, 18:52

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

My whole deal, yesno, is that everybody agrees we don't have "such a system." We're already playing a Crawl without any real limitations on spells/abilities; even the people who like food think we need a lot less of it to make it meaningful. If something would be actually broken in Dungeon Crawl: Diet Soup, it's broken right now.

Of course, it's usually not broken. Players don't rush to Fire Storm for the same reason they usually don't rush to wield triple swords: it's easier to avoid mistakes when you balance killdudes with defenses. Players don't starve themselves with berserk or channeling because "overusing" it is nearly always pointless and tedious.

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Post Thursday, 20th August 2015, 19:14

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

yes, i know that. i thought this topic was about how to remove hunger (because it is tedious and doesn't do its job well) and whether to replace it with a system that could actually achieve the design goals that hunger failed to accomplish. you and sandman want to argue with me about whether it is desirable to pursue those design goals at all, but i have said a number of times that i don't have an opinion about that. i am just interested in speculating about what system could best accomplish those goals if the dev team wants to pursue them. cheers.

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Post Thursday, 20th August 2015, 19:40

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

Here is a proposal:

1. Monsters do not give experience ever.
2. Experience is gained by collecting gold
3. Each level has random number between 1-5 timed portals that lead to small treasure vaults containing some treasure and perhaps a guard. Treasure is just like treasure you find lying around the normal dungeon. Portals are open for a random amount of time. Portals do not anounce when they time out.
4, A few monsters like dragons are "greedy" They pick up gold they see lying around the dungeon. You of course have to kill them to get them to drop the gold so you can pick it up and get experience for it. Monsters carrying gold are identified when you see them just as it identifies them as weilding a weapon.

This does most of what food is supposed to do as far as a clock goes. It turns mosters into pure obsticals and not experience pinatas so there is no reason to scum for experience. It encourages people to advance instead of waiting for monsters to come to them since if you sit still you will miss out on treasure including some experience.

It also opens up possible new avenues of play since you don't have to kill all/any monsters to actually advance and win the game. Characters that sneak and run when spotted are now possible. Hexers that just confuse/paralyze/sleep the opponets long enough to run past them are also a possibility.

I personally do not think spell/ability hunger needs to be replaced. If powers are too god for the investment now, just change that balance, and don't try to add a third ball to juggled to fix things.

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Post Thursday, 20th August 2015, 20:22

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

Wasn't there a joke earlier in this thread about getting experience from collecting gold?
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Post Thursday, 20th August 2015, 20:32

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

acvar wrote:But is this even desirable? Do we expect long blade users to use their scimitar vs popcorn and only pull out their tripple sword for the real threats?
This is exactly the intended design for ranged weapon users.

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Post Thursday, 20th August 2015, 20:35

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

Wahaha wrote:
acvar wrote:But is this even desirable? Do we expect long blade users to use their scimitar vs popcorn and only pull out their tripple sword for the real threats?
This is exactly the intended design for ranged weapon users.


and for conjurers/evokers/summoners/necromancers/hexers etc. Only melee characters have the same weapon as optimal (I am talking about base type, not about brands or categories like axes here) no matter what they are fighting.

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Post Thursday, 20th August 2015, 21:40

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

kuniqs wrote:Wasn't there a joke earlier in this thread about getting experience from collecting gold?

The joke was that I was presenting it like it was some kind of new idea when it is actually from basic D&D

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Post Thursday, 20th August 2015, 21:53

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

yesno wrote:i am just interested in speculating about what system could best accomplish those goals if the dev team wants to pursue them.

I'm not sure that speculation will really be useful; acvar's idea, for example, would probably be a great foundation for a cool roguelike, but it would transform Crawl altogether. As somebody who genuinely likes Crawl, I'm more interested in removing the annoyance of food without disturbing all the other stuff in the game I still enjoy. I have a lot of trouble imagining some Comprehensive Food Replacement patch that accomplishes all of food's design goals at once without requiring Crawl to basically turn into another game.

Sandman25 wrote:and for conjurers/evokers/summoners/necromancers/hexers etc. Only melee characters have the same weapon as optimal (I am talking about base type, not about brands or categories like axes here) no matter what they are fighting.

Uh, "melee characters" aren't playing optimally if they only use their trained weapon type in every fight, but that has nothing to do with food. Indeed, most of the time when I train weapons significantly on caster/ranged characters, it's because killing popcorn with spells/missiles is tedious, and spell hunger is a significant factor in casting tedium.

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Post Thursday, 20th August 2015, 22:56

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

archaeo wrote:I'm not sure that speculation will really be useful; acvar's idea, for example, would probably be a great foundation for a cool roguelike, but it would transform Crawl altogether. As somebody who genuinely likes Crawl, I'm more interested in removing the annoyance of food without disturbing all the other stuff in the game I still enjoy. I have a lot of trouble imagining some Comprehensive Food Replacement patch that accomplishes all of food's design goals at once without requiring Crawl to basically turn into another game.


what about food is annoying other than butchering and carrying chunks, though? i like crawl, but i think it would probably be a better game if it put real pressure on the player to dive faster, one way or another. this thread has had some dev input, from crate and gammafunk, and i was under the impression from their posts that there is value in trying to figure out viable clock/pressure functions for crawl. if speculation about it doesn't turn out to be useful in the end, well, whatever, i'm posting on the internet about video games, so i'm obviously not too concerned about the value of my time on earth anyway!

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Post Thursday, 20th August 2015, 23:05

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

yesno wrote:what about food is annoying other than butchering and carrying chunks, though?

The "do I eat a ration or push on looking for a chunk" minigame.

The encouragement for Spriggans to avoid food-expending activities.

Needing to edit my .rc to turn on automatic eating whenever I make a new install.

The "how many types of permafood to carry?" minigame.

The "which type of permafood do I eat?" minigame.

Having to manually move to corpses to butcher, if they're not in a stack.

Swapping an amulet of the gourmand in and out as needed.

Having to reason out if regeneration is worth the hunger cost.

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Post Thursday, 20th August 2015, 23:26

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

i don't mind these parts:

The "do I eat a ration or push on looking for a chunk" minigame.
The "which type of permafood do I eat?" minigame.


and these parts i like, because they show the hunger system actually works sometimes (although when is regeneration not worth the hunger, really?):

Having to reason out if regeneration is worth the hunger cost.
The encouragement for Spriggans to avoid food-expending activities.


the other parts you mention are all related to butchering and carrying, which, yes, annoying. except gourmand, which... i don't know, how are you using up so much food that you need to swap in gourmand so often?

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Post Friday, 21st August 2015, 00:48

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

acvar wrote:
kuniqs wrote:Wasn't there a joke earlier in this thread about getting experience from collecting gold?

The joke was that I was presenting it like it was some kind of new idea when it is actually from basic D&D


xp from collecting gold was one of the better ideas in D&D. Video games would have been so much better if early comers like rogue, the ultima games, etc. had picked up this rule.
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Post Friday, 21st August 2015, 08:25

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

yesno wrote:i don't mind these parts:

The "do I eat a ration or push on looking for a chunk" minigame.
The "which type of permafood do I eat?" minigame.


and these parts i like, because they show the hunger system actually works sometimes (although when is regeneration not worth the hunger, really?):

How so? You have to play the minigame, but I'm not sure I've seen any evidence that your choice matters very often. Unless you're casting lots of spells or berserking a lot (or just really down on your luck and needing to rest a lot), then maybe the first game matters.

It doesn't matter whether or not regeneration is worth the hunger: what matters is that you have to figure out whether or not it is. It is also one of the topics that keeps coming up on the forum.

Having to reason out if regeneration is worth the hunger cost.
The encouragement for Spriggans to avoid food-expending activities.


the other parts you mention are all related to butchering and carrying, which, yes, annoying. except gourmand, which... i don't know, how are you using up so much food that you need to swap in gourmand so often?

It doesn't matter whether I do it often or not, it matters that I should do it at all. And it doesn't really take long to get down to satiated from engorged anyways. (I'm pretty sure it's a bad idea to wait all the way until you're hungry!)

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Post Friday, 21st August 2015, 14:06

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

It doesn't matter whether I do it often or not, it matters that I should do it at all. And it doesn't really take long to get down to satiated from engorged anyways. (I'm pretty sure it's a bad idea to wait all the way until you're hungry!)


i'm sorry to be rude but i think maybe part of the the problem is that it sounds like you are really bad at managing hunger for some reason :(

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Post Friday, 21st August 2015, 23:17

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

yesno wrote:
It doesn't matter whether I do it often or not, it matters that I should do it at all. And it doesn't really take long to get down to satiated from engorged anyways. (I'm pretty sure it's a bad idea to wait all the way until you're hungry!)


i'm sorry to be rude but i think maybe part of the the problem is that it sounds like you are really bad at managing hunger for some reason :(


You can just be bored/tired of the hunger minigame as well.

I think spell hunger is really annoying myself; it rarely matters and the times it does matter it's not in an interesting manner (you might need to spend a turn eating fruit in combat). In fact, I'd rather take staff of energy over spell enhancers even with the abundance of food you typically have simply because it means less hunger notifications.

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Post Saturday, 22nd August 2015, 16:35

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

How about we make starvation a status effect which temporarily halves your attributes and slows you (but doesn't kill you), and increase slightly the number of permafood, and remove chunk eating?
This way spell/ability hunger still has an effect, you can't scum everywhere by just waiting for monsters to stumble upon you and pure melee builds could forget about hunger altogether.
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Post Sunday, 23rd August 2015, 00:41

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

in my hundreds of crawl games, hunger has never been a major issue or concern outside of Vp/Sp/Gh
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Post Sunday, 23rd August 2015, 01:20

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

kuniqs wrote:How about we make starvation a status effect which temporarily halves your attributes and slows you (but doesn't kill you), and increase slightly the number of permafood, and remove chunk eating?
This way spell/ability hunger still has an effect, you can't scum everywhere by just waiting for monsters to stumble upon you and pure melee builds could forget about hunger altogether.


If this happened, I suspect a lot of players would start ignoring hunger and playing around the downside of having "starving" status.
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Post Sunday, 23rd August 2015, 01:32

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

kuniqs wrote:How about we make starvation a status effect which temporarily halves your attributes and slows you (but doesn't kill you), and increase slightly the number of permafood, and remove chunk eating?
This way spell/ability hunger still has an effect, you can't scum everywhere by just waiting for monsters to stumble upon you and pure melee builds could forget about hunger altogether.


And why are we trying to save this mechanic? Why save a bad mechanic that was a kludge to begin with. This is the epitome of bad programing. The best fix for hunger is to remove it and adress the percieved problems that it is designed to fix directily.

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Post Sunday, 23rd August 2015, 04:39

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

i'd guess it's because until someone puts a bunch of hard work into designing, programming, and tweaking a new set of systems, hunger remains, despite its flaws, the most direct response to those problems

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Post Sunday, 23rd August 2015, 06:04

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

Hunger is not *that* bad. People who never played ghouls, vampires or spriggans would need to learn to live with it. If we remove hunger (and permafood), spriggans would need a redesign. That's too much balancing for one version as far as I know.
OOD spawns are supposed to fix the 'wait in one spot forever' problem, but they don't really work - this mechanic is not that transparent (I bet there are still players out there who do not know this OOD business exists), it punishes players who abuse autoexplore and it provides free experience so it can be optimal to spend lots of time on a cleared level before moving deeper.

Personally, I don't mind hunger. I do mind chunks, because it is very annoying when you have a pile of corpses (I always choose to butcher all, which means I lose a lot of time).
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Post Sunday, 23rd August 2015, 06:59

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

Hunger is *that* bad.

Hunger is literally there to curb how much fun you can have playing the game. It prevents you from "spamming" high level spells... even though mp already does that, high level spells are suboptimal through most of any given game, thoughout all of a 3 rune game in most cases, etc. In other words, it takes a collection of abilities that people use primarily for the fun of it, not because they're particularly good, and makes it a huge hassle to use them.

You can see it most clearly, though, in its persistence in games where hunger is not and cannot be a factor, e.g. essentially any melee or ranged combat character. Here you just keep eating all the time, even though it's impossible to run out of food in any reasonable situation. In other words, food is purely tedious on these characters. There's no pretense that something is being limited or that somehow you could do something overpowered if it weren't for food. It's just there because.
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Post Sunday, 23rd August 2015, 07:51

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

I do think it's funny that recent gods have completely forgone hunger as limiting factor in favor of skill draining, sort of proving how much hunger has utterly failed in limiting actions. I think removing hunger probably is the best solution actually.

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Post Sunday, 23rd August 2015, 08:26

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

I am positive hunger will not be removed in the near or even distant future. There's just too much tedious work and rebalancing having to be done for it to work.

Skill draining for spending too much time on a level - would have to be pretty hefty to make a difference. There are classes like monk, races like draconians and felids that depend more on their skills and less on equipment. A character with great items could ignore skill drain to more extent. It would be a bother to balance and a source of complaints I guess. It would make mummies much harder for sure.

Ranged-oriented builds are right now somewhat kept in check because: ammo is limited (not really), ranged weapons are rare, and ranged weapons usually don't like shields.
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Post Sunday, 23rd August 2015, 11:30

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

I was thinking: why not replace hunger with contamination? You spend too much time on unexplored level, you gain contamination. You kill something, your contamination fades away by amount based on threat level of what you kill.
Now remove spell hunger and casting high-level spells is a hard deal when your spell success is too low.
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Post Sunday, 23rd August 2015, 12:36

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

GOOD GOD!!! I want to rip my eyes out. You do not need to punish people for staying on a level too long. This is backwards thinking. It is using a kludge instead of fixing the problem. JUST FIX THE PROBLEM! Remove the incentive for spending a lot of time on the level. There are several very easy ways to fix this that have allready been outlined in this thread.

yesno wrote:i'd guess it's because until someone puts a bunch of hard work into designing, programming, and tweaking a new set of systems, hunger remains, despite its flaws, the most direct response to those problems


No hunger is not a response to those problems. It is just a bunch of hand waving while claiming the problem is fixed while doing practically nothing to actually address the problem. It is like your mom kissing the boo boo. It does nothing to actually heal the wound, but it makes CHILDREN feel better.

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Post Sunday, 23rd August 2015, 15:18

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

Sometimes I feel like certain aspects of optimal play in this game are so degenerate that making "optimal" play equal to "fun" play is pretty much impossible without a huge overhaul of the game. Waiting forever for monsters to come to you is an example of this, in a foodless crawl. I don't think it's good to inflict hunger on human players because of what an imaginary player might do.

Edit: That's not to say you shouldn't care about making "optimal" play fun, but taking it to its logical extreme might not be a great idea.
remove food

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Post Sunday, 23rd August 2015, 15:44

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

What really annoys me is that developers seem to be of the mindset that it is a good idea to keep some theoretical player from tortureing themselves by implementing mechanics that torture everybody. Since waiting around for monsters to come to you is tedious and they don't want people to do that they institute a mechanic (food) that makes the game more tedious for everybody that plays it not just the micorscopic percent who would actually sit around and wait for monsters to come to them. How does that make any sense at all??? Let those that want to ruin their own experience ruin their experience. Don't ruin everybodies experience in a vane attempt to keep the idiots safe from themselves!

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Post Sunday, 23rd August 2015, 18:22

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

I love that ludicrous hypothesis because it reminds me that mummies are still in the game and anyone who wants to wait around for monster can already do that in the current state of the game.
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Post Sunday, 23rd August 2015, 20:03

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

acvar wrote: Let those that want to ruin their own experience ruin their experience. Don't ruin everybodies experience in a vane attempt to keep the idiots safe from themselves!

Ignorance is bliss. A nontrivial percentage of the people who aren't idiots and actually recognize that torturing yourself is better play will have their experience ruined simply by that knowledge, even if they don't torture themselves at all.

Triply so in any venue where people compare their performance with others'. (or sometimes even comparing against their prior performance)

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Post Sunday, 23rd August 2015, 21:33

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

acvar wrote:GOOD GOD!!! I want to rip my eyes out. You do not need to punish people for staying on a level too long. This is backwards thinking. It is using a kludge instead of fixing the problem. JUST FIX THE PROBLEM! Remove the incentive for spending a lot of time on the level. There are several very easy ways to fix this that have allready been outlined in this thread.

yesno wrote:i'd guess it's because until someone puts a bunch of hard work into designing, programming, and tweaking a new set of systems, hunger remains, despite its flaws, the most direct response to those problems


No hunger is not a response to those problems. It is just a bunch of hand waving while claiming the problem is fixed while doing practically nothing to actually address the problem. It is like your mom kissing the boo boo. It does nothing to actually heal the wound, but it makes CHILDREN feel better.


maybe you should, like... take a break

Hurkyl wrote:A nontrivial percentage of the people who aren't idiots


i mean listen to yourselves

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Post Sunday, 23rd August 2015, 21:39

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

Whether there should be a clock pushing you forward is being conflated with whether or not there should be a food system. You can reason about those independently if you want to stop bickering. Hunger would be a fine, mostly ignorable system if only there were no butchering.

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Post Sunday, 23rd August 2015, 22:48

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

if the goal is to please the most people and improve the game as much as possible, without needing to create a huge new system or radically alter the game in a single patch, perhaps the thing would be removing chunks completely and calibrating food spawn rate to encourage faster diving. all food items could be replaced with "rations", and maybe people would be relatively satisfied about inventory management. spell hunger would then be more meaningful if retained (because a character couldn't kill monsters with hungering spells and then just eat them), or if it were removed then MP itself would be a more meaningful limitation because characters could not spend so much time resting. seems like a compromise that everyone could regard as a step forward, even if some people want all reference to food/hunger completely removed from the game.

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Post Sunday, 23rd August 2015, 23:08

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

yesno wrote:perhaps the thing would be removing chunks completely and calibrating food spawn rate to encourage faster diving

You mean like, calibrate in a way that it becomes trivial to anybody or harmful to somebody? Some people enjoy making stashes with all sorts of stuff and going up and down through the dungeon. Also, how to calibrate food spawn rate on pan/abyss/zig?
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Post Sunday, 23rd August 2015, 23:34

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

You mean like, calibrate in a way that it becomes trivial to anybody or harmful to somebody? Some people enjoy making stashes with all sorts of stuff and going up and down through the dungeon.


well obviously i don't mean retain food just for old times' sake and then calibrate it to be trivial. i mean calibrate it to actually function as a game clock and source of pressure to dive faster. i know some people find making stashes fun as a kind of item collection minigame, but is this a necessary part of a high stakes, high tension quest into a perilous dungeon filled with evil blah blah blah? people could still maintain stashes on a small scale, especially in places that make sense to return to, (in lair, between branches, for example) but at some point would have to determine what's really necessary and move on. that is the whole idea behind a limited inventory, as i understand it.

Also, how to calibrate food spawn rate on pan/abyss/zig?


? what's the problem here exactly?

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Post Monday, 24th August 2015, 00:17

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

johlstei wrote:Whether there should be a clock pushing you forward is being conflated with whether or not there should be a food system. You can reason about those independently if you want to stop bickering. Hunger would be a fine, mostly ignorable system if only there were no butchering.


No it would not. It would still take up several slots in my inventory. I would still have to drop all the food I don't need and/or alter my pickup to stop picking up what is it 10 different types of food. I would still get constant messages telling me I need to eat. Messages that interupt my autoexpolore and autotravel. [Mod note: removed insult toward women].

And if you are just going to automate this and make it so I don't notice it all then why do we need the mechanic in the first place. If it is a mostly ignorable system why does it exist? Why waste all the time reforming it if it is ignorable? Just cut it out and be done with it.

Again it was always just a kludge that was so hated that it got kludged to make it toothless. Instead of introducing yet another kludge to fix the kludge of the kludge lets just drop it and adress the real problem head on. The alternative is just bad programming.

Hurkyl wrote:Ignorance is bliss. A nontrivial percentage of the people who aren't idiots and actually recognize that torturing yourself is better play will have their experience ruined simply by that knowledge, even if they don't torture themselves at all.

Triply so in any venue where people compare their performance with others'. (or sometimes even comparing against their prior performance)


Sorry, but I play games to have fun. The most optimal way to play is the way that gives me the most enjoyment. If you play games for some reason other then having fun then Yes I must say you are an idiot in my opinion (as far as I know there is no professional crawl league). It would just be a colossal waste of time.

As far as comparing yourself to others and yourself since turncount is part of score this is just not a problem.
Last edited by acvar on Monday, 24th August 2015, 00:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Monday, 24th August 2015, 00:30

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

i'd like to remove monsters because i get sick of constant messages telling me that something is hitting me. [Mod note: removed response to acvar's comment about women.]

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Sar

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Post Monday, 24th August 2015, 00:35

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

yesno wrote:i'd like to remove monsters because i get sick of constant messages telling me that something is hitting me.

Go play candy crush. ;-)

mps

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Post Monday, 24th August 2015, 00:36

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

Is there a single example of an online game where someone used this wait scumming nonsense to gain a nontrivial advantage in current crawl? People talking about that get that hunger does not actually prevent you from standing still for a huge number of turns, right?

There is zero evidence that an actual advantage can be obtained by waiting for monsters this way (except by scumming spawns, a hilariously bad attempt to address this supposed problem). Can we have a footv that shows clearly that there's a real advantage to be had here. It has absolutely not been established in this thread.
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Post Monday, 24th August 2015, 00:40

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

acvar wrote:
yesno wrote:i'd like to remove monsters because i get sick of constant messages telling me that something is hitting me.

Go play candy crush. ;-)


what

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Post Monday, 24th August 2015, 00:42

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

mps wrote:People talking about that get that hunger does not actually prevent you from standing still for a huge number of turns, right?


yes, but it's supposed to, hence the idea "make it work" rather than "just remove it and forget about it". ideally food would be scarce enough to not only prevent scumming a floor but also make players think seriously about whether they can afford to rest.

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duvessa

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Post Monday, 24th August 2015, 00:47

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

yesno wrote:
mps wrote:People talking about that get that hunger does not actually prevent you from standing still for a huge number of turns, right?


yes, but it's supposed to, hence the idea "make it work" rather than "just remove it and forget about it". ideally food would be scarce enough to not only prevent scumming a floor but also make players think seriously about whether they can afford to rest.


There used to be a game just like this. It was called rogue. Perhaps you have heard about it. The mechanic in question was so annoying that in future forks of the game they added a kludge that allowed you to eat corpses so you would not just randomly die a slow annoying death due to the RNG giveing you a few less rations. Trust me as somebody that started on rogue and moved on to nethack, and had numberous freinds that did the same you do not want what you are asking for.

Blades Runner

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Post Monday, 24th August 2015, 00:49

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

could you stop talking to me like that. thankyou

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Post Monday, 24th August 2015, 00:56

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

yesno wrote:well obviously i don't mean retain food just for old times' sake and then calibrate it to be trivial. i mean calibrate it to actually function as a game clock and source of pressure to dive faster.

You havent actually said how you plan to do that.

yesno wrote:
Also, how to calibrate food spawn rate on pan/abyss/zig?

? what's the problem here exactly?

You dont know? You want the game to have a clock but not gonna take into considerantion the infinite branches and their infinite source of food? what about necromutation, or gozag?
You shall never see my color again.

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Post Monday, 24th August 2015, 01:01

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

The problem with having a "strong" hunger drive, or other variations like removing just removing chunks but adding more permafood, or other alternatives to food, is that races and characters have a high variability in their need for food. E.g. I'm sure none of the developers were really thinking much about how carnivore spellcasters or suboptimal casters are affected when they made poison chunks inedbible, even if it was fine for most characters. For example, I just finished a FeCj with 3 beef jerkies in inventory. Consider what a troll would go through in a chunkless crawl, they have what, 3 times the hunger?

This is why I think removing hunger outright really is the only longterm solution. Even having a non-hunger clock would make little sense the way the game is currently designed, you'd have to make mana recharge faster when resting or something. Most people with octopodes or felids take 100k+ for a 3 rune, whereas with minotaur fighters or gargoyles the "usual" is like 30k less.
Last edited by greedo on Monday, 24th August 2015, 01:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Monday, 24th August 2015, 01:04

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

dynast wrote:You dont know? You want the game to have a clock but not gonna take into considerantion the infinite branches and their infinite source of food? what about necromutation, or gozag?


perhaps if you considered compromise a worthwhile concept you might offer some suggestions for these difficulties rather than demand i immediately draw up a full plan for you

Sar

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Post Monday, 24th August 2015, 01:09

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

greedo wrote:For example, I just finished a FeCj with 3 beef jerkies in inventory.

how did you even manage that? cats have built-in gourmand

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Post Monday, 24th August 2015, 01:12

Re: But seriously, remove hunger

mps wrote:Is there a single example of an online game where someone used this wait scumming nonsense to gain a nontrivial advantage in current crawl?
there are thousands of examples, especially from before 0.6
it's so common for people to use tens thousands of turns this way that sequell has a special designation for it, "farming"
Last edited by duvessa on Monday, 24th August 2015, 01:13, edited 1 time in total.
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