Removal of Restore Abilities

[Aule]

This commit has huge ramifications that I don't see being discussed anywhere, and it's going to prevent me from playing 0.17 unless I'm missing something important about it.

While losing a single point to drain is annoying, it is hardly more than an inconvenience, and were it true that this is all that can occur in Crawl, especially during extended, then I wouldn't be posting about this. Unfortunately, there are several instances and cases where stat drain can be downright crippling, dangerous, and even quite deadly. Unless I've missed something, here are the sources of serious stat drain that I know of:

  Code:

divination miscast
  spl-miscast.cc [1632]             if (_lose_stat(STAT_INT, 1 + random2(3)))
  spl-miscast.cc [1675]             if (_lose_stat(STAT_INT, 3 + random2(3)))
 
mummy death curse
  spl-miscast.cc [1978]             _lose_stat(STAT_RANDOM, 1 + random2avg(7, 2));
 
poison miscast
  spl-miscast.cc [3045]                 _lose_stat(STAT_RANDOM, 1 + random2avg(5, 2));
 
Zot trap
  spl-miscast.cc [3280]             _lose_stat(STAT_RANDOM, 1 + random2avg((coinflip() ? 7 : 4), 2));
 
monster spell BRAIN_FEED
  mon-cast.cc [5261]             && lose_stat(STAT_INT, 1 + random2(3), mons))


Mummy curses especially are quite debilitating, and can take, for example, a character with a yellow 4% spellcasting success rate to a dark red 54% chance after a drain of 7 int. It can also happen that some characters with low base stats and no buffs can reach stat zero by such effects, in which case the stated rationale for the change becomes quite absurd. You're supposed to continue killing things when your ability to do so has been decimated in a single stroke?

This one change, without attendant changes to the many and varied sources of dangerous stat drain, seriously cripples extended play, Tomb and Ziggurats, and even turns the Pan/Abyss popcorn Nexoqecs into something more than a little annoying. It also brings back "stat death", except where before it was a quick and painless death, it is now a cruel and unusual one, knowing there's nothing whatsoever you can do to recover from it.

I cannot imagine playing anything but a 3-rune game under this solitary change.

So, given the absurdity of this, I know I must be missing something else that was changed to balance it. I can't find it. Just point me in the right direction, and I thank you kindly.

[bcadren]

The change that happened at the same time was changing stat drain to be CURED by XP gain instead of by time. Now, killing a greater mummy (because they are worth so much XP) is likely to cure all the stat drain caused by the previous one's death curse. Suppose it's more deadly if you get a lot of divinations miscasts (cBoe or Wucad Mu) without gaining much experience...but otherwise it's actually easier...

[Arrhythmia]

The thing that balances it is stat drain really doesn't matter.

[Aule]

The change that happened at the same time was changing stat drain to be CURED by XP gain instead of by time. Now, killing a greater mummy (because they are worth so much XP) is likely to cure all the stat drain caused by the previous one's death curse. Suppose it's more deadly if you get a lot of divinations miscasts (cBoe or Wucad Mu) without gaining much experience...but otherwise it's actually easier...

You're at level 26 of a ziggurat, say, and it's a Tomb level. (this actually happened today). Under the current state, then, you're telling me, you can't actually kill the guardian or greater mummies, because if you do, you can actually die of stat drain. Without restoring potions in this situation, you'd have to be so far overpowered that you wouldn't need to brave a zig in the first place. (this also happened today; the character had no restore abilities potions, and could have been killed by stat zero, but just got lucky rolls.)

Or, say, less extreme, you're going into Tomb. You kill the first greater mummy, who slaps you with a 7 drain off your main stat. Now, you have to leave and go somewhere else, or deeper, to recover the drain enough to take on the twenty other guardian mummies in there? This seems like a change made for people who never, ever play extended. If crawl is to be a 3-rune game, then make it a 3-rune game already.

And yes, you mentioned CBoE, which I also rely on, and which is of ZERO use if, combined with other sources of drain, it can only be cured by killing things while being utterly crippled. You can have 27 evo and get int stat drain from CBoE.

I'm not even going to try this to see how it works out. It's a huge change in the dynamics of the game, and absolutely not in the favor of removing tedium and drudgery. There are too many and too numerous sources of devastating stat drain to make this a good idea, IMO.

[Aule]

The thing that balances it is stat drain really doesn't matter.

It absolutely does matter if you're a caster relying on int for your primary offenses. And if spellcasting characters don't matter, then FR: remove spellcasting already.

Seems to me dex should also matter to a ranger, and str should matter to a fighter, but I haven't explored those types yet. I do know that with spellcasting, every point of int is precious.

[Blobbo]

Stat drain, like rot, or just regular XP drain, is a source of persistent nonlethal annoyances that kill characters through annoying the player until they're frustrated and distracted to the point where they stop playing carefully - this is why no one likes doing Tomb, not because it is hard, but because it's literally more annoying than Hell (which is pretty damn annoying, but at least you can dive to reduce the annoyance level). It's also this weird mechanic where it doesn't matter that much until it's lethal and then you're dead. I would not be sad to see it removed completely.

Alternatives to stat drain / drain / rot:
Diseases (eliminate regen, or apply negative regen until cured, or random status effects like confusion etc.), cured by !curing
Temporary mutations like for wretched stars
Unlucky (negative modifier to rolls for to-hit, AC, EV, MR etc)
Instead of dex drain, get slowed
Instead of str drain, get -slay
Instead of int drain, get -archmagi

[milski]

Mechanical notes here, because you don't seem to understand them fully:

Zero stat can't kill you, and hasn't been able to do so for a long time. I have had quite a few games where I was Brainless as a Minotaur for a very extended amount of time in the Abyss, with no detrimental long term effects.

Intelligence is useful for casters but singular points are not nearly as powerful as you believe. Effectively, a point of intelligence gives 1/8th a skill level for spell success, 1/20th a level for spell power, and reduces spell hunger by Spellcasting/1000 of a chunk. If your caster is made or broken by a single point, you're doing things seriously wrong.

Pure anything is generally terrible past the early game, especially in Ziggs. If you kill off your pure caster in a Zig, the issue was 99% strategic and 1% tactical, and stat drain is a small fraction of the tactical error.

If you are running a pure character, stat drain is most likely to harm you by zero-statting your dump stat (strength or int), and even that is fixable if you have an artifact handy or find some Yaks to beat up.

Dexterity and especially Strength are also not that terrible to lose. You lose a lot of defense as your Dex drops, and you lose damage either way, but people wouldn't start IEs and immediately begin weapons training if dexterity and strength were required for melee to work out.

[Category]

Surely you are exaggerating, Aule. I wiz-moded up some reasonable characters that can cast level 9 spells at around 4% failure, and in no situation did losing 7 int take the failure rate even close to 54% (the highest was around 10%). This was accompanied by a sizeable drop in spellpower, which while certainly noticeable, was far from crippling; I was still able to kill enemies without undue difficulty, and the effects can be mitigated in a pinch with a brilliance potion. Even taking off 14 int still left the spell castable. In general, the most dangerous thing that can happen from stat drain is reaching 0 in a stat, since most of the effects that your stats contribute to are more dependent on your skills, magic included.

There are also not that many sources of stat drain in the game. I will only look at int drain, since this is the most prevalent. Int drain from brain feed and CBoE are almost irrelevant; both take off no more than 3 int at worst, the former checks MR (disclaimer: wiki info), neqoxecs are easy to kill, and the latter very rarely happens (check out Berder's CBoE thread for probabilities; it's around 1% at 27 evo, and no more than 4% ever). This leaves death curses as the only "threatening" source of stat drain. Note that stat drain is only one of the many possible death curse effects, and is partially offset by the influx of xp from killing the mummies. From experience, I have obtained the golden rune on several occasions without the need to quaff restore abilities or resting out the stat drain, before it was changed to go away with xp. Mummy zigs might also be a problem, but you should have prepared means other than magic to deal with things in zigs in any case, since silence and sap magic exist. Also, the sustain attributes ring exists.

tl;dr The thing that balances it is stat drain really doesn't matter.

[Sprucery]

Int drain is very significant for low int non-casters like my GhGl with int 3. Running into a vault of brain worms and giant orange brains made him brainless for a long time. This was in 0.16 so restab potions existed but I just had none. I also didn't want to raise int a level-up because it was a useless stat otherwise so I didn't do it. It was an interesting challenge and I survived (and won). The important thing is of course how much stuff you have to kill in 0.17 to recover from -2 or -7 int.

I think just making !restab much rarer (even like !exp) could have also worked. That way you would have really had to think when to use a potion.

[Sar]

Think positively: this change means you won't ever need to drop Necromut to drink restab on a mummy Zig floor (and yes, I've died that way not once, but twice).

Massive caster buff, IMO.

[Aule]

Think positively: this change means you won't ever need to drop Necromut to drink restab on a mummy Zig floor

Well, I've never used Necromutation on a zig floor, so... Maybe this means now one must do so? If reducing the variety of options for caster pathways is the intended direction, then I supposed this is all viable.

Zero stat can't kill you, and hasn't been able to do so for a long time.

I understand the difference between stat death and stat zero. I had a recent Og character killed by stat zero on a mummy zig floor when dex drain resulted in the Clumsy status, which debilitated him so strongly that it was impossible to overcome by any consumable means other than restore abilities, and even then the quaffing it might not have saved him. Like I said, the change sometimes just moves quick and painless stat death to cruel and unusual stat zero death.

tl;dr The thing that balances it is stat drain really doesn't matter.

As the meme goes... "until it does."

[bcadren]

Surely you are exaggerating, Aule. I wiz-moded up some reasonable characters that can cast level 9 spells at around 4% failure, and in no situation did losing 7 int take the failure rate even close to 54% (the highest was around 10%).

INT does. If you are in heavy armour with good fail rate; STR drain can though.

[bel]

Think positively: this change means you won't ever need to drop Necromut to drink restab on a mummy Zig floor

Well, I've never used Necromutation on a zig floor, so... Maybe this means now one must do so? If reducing the variety of options for caster pathways is the intended direction, then I supposed this is all viable.

Necromutation does not protect against mummy curse stat drain. In any case, Ziggs are not high on the priority for gameplay options. In my experience, wearing a ring of SustAb usually handled all the stat drain I got from Zigg mummy floors.

[emikaela]

the change brings sustatt closer to actually doing anything, which i guess is a good thing. (demigod buff!) i've started to always carry it if possible on any character that stands a risk of being abyssed. though i'm not a huge fan of the mechanic overall. maybe it could just be covered by -att mutations, since those already exist.

[Pollen_Golem]

Effectively, a point of intelligence gives 1/8th a skill level for spell success, 1/20th a level for spell power

Actually I think a point of intelligence gives 1/3rd a skill level for spell success, and its effect on spell power is highly dependent on your intelligence, because intelligence simply acts as a multiplier for spell power. So if you from 14 int to 7 int, you lose 50% your spell power, but if you go from 35 int to 28 int, you lose 20% of your spell power. This is all before the spell power stepdown.