Suggestion: No distortion weapon gifts from Okawaru

[Grimm]

I've played Okes hundreds of times but only ever got one distortion weapon as a gift, but that one time seems like too many. It seems wrong that Oka would gift things that will kill you.

I got it just the other day in 0.8.

[mageykun]

If I play Trog all game, I pretty much assume he's going to send me to the abyss for fun at least once.

I don't know that this is necessarily a bad thing. It forces players to be a little more cautious even with good items- and it seems to me that wondering if you should really test ID all your god gifts, or wondering whether it's worth keeping that distortion blade stuck to your hand till you feel ready to risk the abyss are interesting choices.

Then there's the fact that not everyone will consider a distortion gift bad! The brand does have it's useful points. And if you were looking to do pan and hadn't found one otherwise...

Dunno. I wouldn't complain if Gods stopped gifting distortion, but those are some reasons why it could stay.

More radically: maybe the gifting gods shouldn't gift anything that infringes on the special flavor brands of other gods? No holy wrath, no pain, no distortion. Make TSO, Kiku, and Lucy more attractive.

[XuaXua]

If I play Trog all game, I pretty much assume he's going to send me to the abyss for fun at least once.

I don't know that this is necessarily a bad thing. It forces players to be a little more cautious even with good items- and it seems to me that wondering if you should really test ID all your god gifts, or wondering whether it's worth keeping that distortion blade stuck to your hand till you feel ready to risk the abyss are interesting choices.

Then there's the fact that not everyone will consider a distortion gift bad! The brand does have it's useful points. And if you were looking to do pan and hadn't found one otherwise...

Where is the ranged weapon of distortion brand?

[Grimm]

Trog I could see messing with a dude but Oka's pretty serious about combat. He sometimes gives weak or useless gifts, but (until the other day) never one that is directly harmful. For me it was a death sentence.

Or to put it another way, the whole point of worshipping a god is to get some cheeky bonuses like not having to scroll ID weapons.

[Jeremiah]

Maybe you could get a warning before you wield it, like you do with vampiric weapons.

[Galefury]

Distortion is fine like it is. Nothing is forcing you to unwield it (except the food clock if it's a blunt weapon). Distortion is a really strong and useful brand, so if you feel you will surely die in the Abyss, don't take it off. Pick up some good consumables or a Lantern of Shadows before unwielding it, learn levitation and swiftness, etc. It gives you as much time to prepare as you need.

I fully agree with mageykun, while I wouldn't be sad to see distortion gone from god gifts there are some good reasons that it should stay.

[galehar]

Distortion is fine like it is. Nothing is forcing you to unwield it (except the food clock if it's a blunt weapon).

The distortion (and vampiric) brands are never generated on blunt weapons, except for artefact. So this is extremely rare.

Maybe you could get a warning before you wield it, like you do with vampiric weapons.

You get a warning for vampiric weapons if it's already identified, just like distortion weapons. You don't get one if you wield-id it. It's just that for vampiric weapons most of the times wielding will fail because you're not full.

[XuaXua]

To be truthful, the two things distortion weapons make unfun for me are (1) ranged weaponry training [I can't rightly switch to a ranged weapon]) and (2) sometimes I feel like the effects consume experience I should have received for killing because the monster got banished.

Maybe I'm not seeing the experience and it's actually there, but I dunno.

Distortion weapons really do take down anyone who wants to train ranged weaponry early. I tended to get distortion brands a lot before I got super-cautious (that is only recently) and the two effects I've seen the most are super-damaging explosions that have killed me twice and banishment to the abyss.

[galehar]

You don't get XP for banished monsters. And like many things in crawl, it can screw your strategy, but you can adapt to it. Train throwing instead.

[XuaXua]

Train throwing instead.

Then allow Okawaru/Trog to gift throwing items other than darts (as long as I can use them properly; no javelins/spears for spriggans, etc.)

[jejorda2]

Is there any reason god gifts couldn't be fully identified on arrival? Maybe just gifts from Okawaru, and not from Trog.

Does Beogh still give weapon gifts? It's been a long time (0.4 or so) since I've gotten far with a Beogh Worshipper.

[galehar]

Is there any reason god gifts couldn't be fully identified on arrival? Maybe just gifts from Okawaru, and not from Trog.

What? It would be like Christmas without packages

Does Beogh still give weapon gifts?

No.

[XuaXua]

I put the javelin/spear thing into a separate thread.

[Grimm]

Just to restate my case:

The distortion brand as such is fine as it is, it makes the game more "fun" - getting one unexpectedly creates interesting choices.

Trog gifting distortion weapons I can live with, as Trog is a bit thick and a berserker will often be happy with thrown objects as a missile weapon.

What I object to is Okawaru gifting a weapon that puts a severe dent in your (read: my) strategy and survival chances. Un-ID'd distortion weapons are the only ones that do this. It would be like a DS getting berserkitis or teleportitis as a standard mutation.

I understand that the Abyss is theoretically survivable but that happiness has only once been mine.
For an armoured MDFi of Okes of say XL 14, learning spells is a bit of an uphill climb.

I wuv Okes and want him to wuv me back, not bitch-slap me.

[XuaXua]

What I object to is Okawaru gifting a weapon that puts a severe dent in your (read: my) strategy and survival chances. Un-ID'd distortion weapons are the only ones that do this. It would be like a DS getting berserkitis or teleportitis as a standard mutation.

That right there.

What would be wrong with Okawaru gifting weapons that are id'd for brand, but not id'd for enhancement?

[XuaXua]

Brands don't work when thrown, but they work when on a missile and launched?

Items thrown are never wielded; how does one throw a dagger of distortion?

How come the returning brand works when thrown? Are there branded weapons of returning?

[asdu]

The distortion (and vampiric) brands are never generated on blunt weapons, except for artefact. So this is extremely rare.

My lvl 3 DSAE just found a hammer of distortion on D:2 (playing 0.9, though it's a rather old build)

[XuaXua]

I found a blowgun of distortion.

No, I didn't, but how cool would that be till I ran out of ammo?

[Grimm]

I've just had my second ever distortion gift from Okawaru and yes, got Abyssed upon unwield. I protest in the strongest terms against this injustice. Okawaru does not gift cursed weapons, and he should not gift distortion weapons.

[XuaXua]

Distortion is fine like it is. Nothing is forcing you to unwield it (except the food clock if it's a blunt weapon).

The distortion (and vampiric) brands are never generated on blunt weapons, except for artefact. So this is extremely rare.

I found a glowing mace; on wield it was distortion. Not dropped, just hanging out in the middle of a regular non-vault hallway in early D.

Didn't get banished on unwield though, so that was OK. Discarded the save, otherwise I'd have reported it. It was recent (within last 5) trunk.

[Grimm]

Okay, but...why Okawaru specifically? Shouldn't distortion weapons also be removed from Trog and acquirement?

You are right. Distortion weapons should never be gifted by any gift channel.

Please note that the distortion brand never appears on randarts. This shows that it is recognised as a special case.

[asdu]

Okay, but...why Okawaru specifically? Shouldn't distortion weapons also be removed from Trog and acquirement?

Tbh it just doesn't make sense to me that gods (except for Xom, of course) gift you bad items (distortion weapons aren't bad items per se, but they tend to be for many Okawaru and especially Trog worshippers). Unless they're somehow officially reflavoured as "old guys going through their attic and just discarding old junk as gifts" as per Oka's learndb entry
Scrolls of aquirement are dungeon lotto tickets, so I'm ok with them giving dangerous stuff or outright useless crap.

[XuaXua]

Hey, I hate that my Deep Dwarves could really use Vampiric branded weapons, but constantly need to swap hands to use stuff like wielding chunks for sublimation of blood, etc.

It'd be nice if one-handed vampiric/distortion weapons allowed you to use your other hand for something other than a shield.

[Grimm]

Distortion is the only brand that is directly harmful to the player.

All god gifts and abilities benefit the player, with the single exception of distortion weapons.

[jejorda2]

Distortion is the only brand that is directly harmful to the player.

All god gifts and abilities benefit the player, with the single exception of distortion weapons.

I don't know if it is still true, but at one point Trog would gift weapons with negative stat modifiers that could kill the player instantly on wield, while Okawaru wouldn't. Sure, zero stats aren't instant death any more, but low stats can still be harmful.

[XuaXua]

Just picked up a generic distortion-branded flail in Orc in Trunk - 2.

[Grimm]

Point taken. But in terms of harm to the player distortion is a galaxy ahead of vampiric. Vampiric will merely temporarily inconvenience you whereas a trip to the abyss at XL 8 is a death sentence.

[Grimm]

Yes, you would have to wield and unwield it. Then you would go to the Abyss and die. This shouldn't happen as a result of receiving a gift from a god you worship.

Also, what crazy kind of character gets a gifted weapon at XL 8?

The kind that finds an altar and a sust ring on D:1. You can start getting gifts that early if you are lucky. Anyway, the Abyss is practically a guaranteed death sentence/huge consumable drain at most levels up to maybe 20.

[asdu]

Point taken. But in terms of harm to the player distortion is a galaxy ahead of vampiric. Vampiric will merely temporarily inconvenience you whereas a trip to the abyss at XL 8 is a death sentence.

It's much worse actually. You're only taking into account the risk of wielding/unwielding them.
When it comes to usage, vampiric can be useless at worst (in undead/demonic branches), whereas distortion is very dangerous if you're not ready to deal with enemies blinking all over the place, which is especially tricky for berserkers due to lack of spells.

[Grimm]

I'm pretty sure god gifts aren't supposed to be strictly good, either. I am under the impression that it's not supposed to be optimal to wield/wear every gift you receive; this is why you occasionally receive cursed gifts.

I am under the opposite impression, because I have never once received a cursed gift. I had assumed that that was because god gifts were not supposed to be detrimental. The very point of worshipping a god is for the help.

If god gifts might be distortion then optimal play is to scroll-ID every single god gifted weapon.

[KoboldLord]

Well, right now it could be argued that it is a good idea to lead some orcs over your weapon gifts so you can see what brand it is. Distortion gifts are usually survivable, but the extra damage nowhere near makes up for the threat of Blinking hostiles into your defensive corridor behind you.

I don't really like the weapon gifts at all. It's an unnecessarily tedious way to arrive at a good base-type item, and after you get a passable item it's little more than extra clutter.

[Grimm]

The devs are against having things that are "just bonuses," in general - this is why potions of gain stat were changed to mutations (previously there was no disadvantage to quaffing them, and no advantage to waiting until later to quaff them).

I understand and appreciate the design philosophy, but "no 'just bonuses'" is not an iron rule. Some things are, have to be, "just bonuses". Drinking a potion of healing when poisoned is always good.

God benefits are sometimes less than 100% beneficial, but in no other case than the distortion gift does something a god does for you put you at serious risk of unavoidable death. (Xom excepted, naturally.) The player's god should be his friend, not yet another treacherous unknown.

The rarity of distortion gifts - I've had two in hundreds of games with Oka - means that one will waste most of one's ID scrolls because 99.44 times out of a hundred the weapon won't be distortion and could have been wield-ID'd. So then one forgets and goes back to wield IDing until BAM, you're in the Abyss again.

Consider once more that distortion does not (to my knowledge) appear on artefacts, ever.

I would also like to see an example of a cursed Oka gift. If they exist, the argument for keeping distortion gifts is strengthened; if they are prevented, then the argument against distortion gifts gains enormous weight.

[Jeremiah]

At least a few of the other gods' gifts/abilities are "just bonuses" - Vehumet is the first example that springs to mind.

[njvack]

Drinking a potion of healing when poisoned is always good.

Not if you were going to get better without drinking the healing potion. Then you wasted the potion.

Seriously: Getting a distortion weapon from a god is really annoying and may change your strategy significantly, but it's not a death sentence. Don't unwield it until you're ready to risk a trip to the abyss.

[dassem]

I understand and appreciate the design philosophy, but "no 'just bonuses'" is not an iron rule. Some things are, have to be, "just bonuses". Drinking a potion of healing when poisoned is always good.
God benefits are sometimes less than 100% beneficial, but in no other case than the distortion gift does something a god does for you put you at serious risk of unavoidable death. (Xom excepted, naturally.) The player's god should be his friend, not yet another treacherous unknown.
The rarity of distortion gifts - I've had two in hundreds of games with Oka - means that one will waste most of one's ID scrolls because 99.44 times out of a hundred the weapon won't be distortion and could have been wield-ID'd. So then one forgets and goes back to wield IDing until BAM, you're in the Abyss again.
Consider once more that distortion does not (to my knowledge) appear on artefacts, ever.
I would also like to see an example of a cursed Oka gift. If they exist, the argument for keeping distortion gifts is strengthened; if they are prevented, then the argument against distortion gifts gains enormous weight.

But maybe Okawaru wants you to carry the fight to the Abyss?
(Sorry!)

IMO, I like the idea of Oka giving a warning for things with a potential downside (distortion, vampiricism, -CAST, etc), "Be careful with this toy, Mortal!"
Trog of course wouldn't notice or care about such details.

For now you just have to be careful with new gifts and prepare for possible banishment. On that subject, he last two times I've gone to the Abyss, it's been through Zot traps that caught me while carrying all my fragile stashed items back to my cache.

Also, for some reason, I seem to have been given all of your ID scrolls this game. A quick search reveals 24 ID scrolls in my current cache, with another 7 remaining for sale, although I suppose I have been use-ID-ing a bit.

[Grimm]

This is where the part about choices comes in. You can use the potion of healing now, or you can save it for later. With Okawaru gifts, you don't get that at all.

But you do. You can wield ID now, or wield ID later, and upon IDing you can choose to use the weapon or not. Finding out upon wield ID that your god gift is a distortion weapon and that you are now probably going to the Abyss is roughly equivalent to quaffing that potion of healing and discovering that this one has gone bad and is now strong poison and that you are now probably going to die.

Actually that would be an interesting mechanic.

Okawaru already gifts things with minuses to hit/dam and to armour class, and things with MUT and -Tele and so forth. That's plenty of choice.

Wielding a weapon is not unavoidable. Neither is unwielding a weapon.

The point is that when Okawaru presents you with a gift, it should not be something that could kill you when you wield it. Instant stat death was removed so that his -5 Int gifts wouldn't drop you immediately upon wielding. Okawaru gifts should be safe to wield and unwield.

I don't randomly wield ID floor weapons because I know that some of them will be harmful to me. If some of Okawaru's gifts will be harmful to me, I am then forced to scroll ID every one of them, because the one time that his gift is distortion, it means almost certainly game over.

And while blinking an orc wizard usually sucks, 1. it probably won't kill you

No but blinking an orc priest might. Again, the point is that a god gift has put you into a very difficult position, which is the opposite of what a god gift should do.

2. nobody's forcing you to hit the orc wizard with your melee weapon.

If you've wield IDed it and have decided that you don't want to go to the Abyss yet, and you're a Fi with no other attack options at the moment, you do in fact have to hit your enemies with your melee weapon.

Not if you were going to get better without drinking the healing potion. Then you wasted the potion.

Given that that's not something that can be known in advance, it's not a valid counterargument.

Seriously: Getting a distortion weapon from a god is really annoying and may change your strategy significantly, but it's not a death sentence. Don't unwield it until you're ready to risk a trip to the abyss.

"Risk" being the operative word here. Okawaru gifts should not cause the player serious risk ur unavoidable strategy changes.

Fighters sooner or later have to kill hydras with flaming weapons, which means there will usually come a time when they are forced to unwield.

[galehar]

The point is that when Okawaru presents you with a gift, it should not be something that could kill you when you wield it.

And it does not. minmay has said it to you several time already, but since you're ignoring it, let me repeat it. You don't have to unwield. If you're playing carefully (means well), then you shouldn't unwield before you're ready. It seems you haven't even considered using the weapon as a valid choice. Maybe you think that playing with distortion is annoying, and you prefer risking death than trying it, but using a distortion weapon isn't a death sentence. It is a powerful brand but you really have to adapt your tactics and strategy. Train throwing or conjuration, use wands, run. Adapt.

[KoboldLord]

I don't randomly wield ID floor weapons because I know that some of them will be harmful to me. If some of Okawaru's gifts will be harmful to me, I am then forced to scroll ID every one of them, because the one time that his gift is distortion, it means almost certainly game over.

You are overstating your case, and it weakens your argument. Unwielding a distortion weapon will usually not send you to the Abyss, and you do get the opportunity to re-equip at your leisure to maximize your chances of survival. You should be able to survive the process almost every time.

A lengthy Abyss slog is tedious and unpleasant, and this lurking threat of enforced boredom hangs over the head of an Okawaru worshipper every time they get a weapon gift. Unlike every other melee deity except Ashenzari, Okawaru does not provide any ranged or summoned alternatives to compensate for being unable to switch weapons, so the Okawaru worshipper is uniquely incapable of operating long-term with a distortion weapon. Sorry, the javelin supply is not going to last.

[Kate]

Much as I agree that there's nothing wrong with distortion gifts in theory and that most of the complaints are not very valid ones, I wouldn't mind Oka not gifting distortion, holy wrath, pain or antimagic for the sake of better theme, and for the fact that those brands should be somewhat rare and hard to obtain. Weapon gifting just obviously doesn't work very well generally, though. Edit: oh hey, mageykun even mentioned that in the second post, could've just stopped there and saved everyone a lot of effort!

[jackalKnight]

+1, but only because I think distortion properties should be exclusive to Lugonu among the gods, it fits her gimmick.

[Grimm]

I sense that I am not winning over the majority. So be it. I'll let the matter drop, apart from the occasional disconsolate sigh.

My Parthian shot, in response to galehar's excellent point:

Maybe you think that playing with distortion is annoying, and you prefer risking death than trying it, but using a distortion weapon isn't a death sentence. It is a powerful brand but you really have to adapt your tactics and strategy. Train throwing or conjuration, use wands, run. Adapt.

My argument is not that the player should not have to adapt, it's that the player should not have to make such a drastic and difficult adaptation as a result of a god gift. Compare the way that Demonspawn mutations were buffed.

And with that I shall withdraw. Thank you ladies and gentlemen.

[Galefury]

I wouldn't mind Oka not gifting distortion, holy wrath, pain or antimagic for the sake of better theme, and for the fact that those brands should be somewhat rare and hard to obtain.

I like that worshiping Oka improves your chance of getting these nice brands, without guaranteeing any of them. They can also appear on the floor, so I don't think Oka not gifting these would be "more thematic" at all. Oka is a god of battle, and he gifts implements of battle. Some of them have powerful brands. Some of them are artifacts. Chei can turn regular armor into artifacts, should other gods stop gifting artifacts because of that? Also sometimes receiving random gifts with these brands is very different from being able to brand a weapon of your choice on demand.