consider moving darkness from level 7 to level 6.

[mps]

Darkness has an interesting tactical effect, but at level 7, it's not worth picking up on a character that hasn't been skilling and using hexes the whole game. The effect is powerful, but substantially less so than other level 7 spells, notably including, cblink, a spell that's in a school that you should skill anyway. It compares unfavorably to level 7 summons as well.

Having seen it in action on a somewhat whimsically built melee character, it clearly has some potential for wider use, but currently the cost is too high.

[njvack]

Hi all! Mod here. Please please please keep this discussion to the delightfully-limited scope of the thread's title. I've deleted the OT posts; feel more than free to make your own threads for those spells.

Thanks!

[File200]

I've never cast darkness before because I never thought it was worth training hexes up to get a single spell, and my stabbers got by fine without it. I might try it if it were changed to be level 6 and got nerfed a little.

Although not using darkness could just be a result of me being bad at this game.

[mps]

I'm a bit puzzled by this post. You claim not to have used it, with the rationale being that you didn't see any value in it on characters who could've gotten it easily and thought it was too costly on characters for whom a real investment would be necessary. In the very next sentence, you suggest that you'd need to nerf it (and how would you nerf darkness? make it reduce LoS only by 1? decrease its duration?) to reduce the level.

No. The experience you report suggests that the level is too high for a niche effect. Please use the spell before suggesting that it be nerfed.

[File200]

I'm a bit puzzled by this post. You claim not to have used it, with the rationale being that you didn't see any value in it on characters who could've gotten it easily and thought it was too costly on characters for whom a real investment would be necessary. In the very next sentence, you suggest that you'd need to nerf it (and how would you nerf darkness? make it reduce LoS only by 1? decrease its duration?) to reduce the level.

No. The experience you report suggests that the level is too high for a niche effect. Please use the spell before suggesting that it be nerfed.

Bleh, it was stupid for me to say it should be nerfed. I've never used it, and I only know about its effect from the description and the wiki. I just thought that it was made a level 7 spell for a good reason that I wasn't seeing. After all, the devs are players too, and they're better at this than I am. If it's too weak, it's too weak, and should be changed to a level 6 spell. I'll try to pick it up the next time I play a stabber.

I also should have added that I don't bother with it because I have access to a Lantern, cBlink, and/or Dithmenos when I find it. To me, these make the effect redundant. Reworking it so that it's useful and castable to a player who doesn't have those things when it's found would make me more likely to use it at some point.

[tasonir]

I've used it, but only when doing ziggurats because the huge swarms of monsters make reduced LOS quite important. At that point if it was a level 9 spell it wouldn't matter much because you can afford it. Making it lower level will make it easier to get it online in a regular game, so I'd support making it level 6. I could see it maybe going to 5 even, although it's probably best to make it 6 and see how player react before considering going further

[roctavian]

I also should have added that I don't bother with it because I have access to a Lantern, cBlink, and/or Dithmenos when I find it. To me, these make the effect redundant.

I don't tend to say things like, "sounds like a good candidate for removal," but sometimes the stars just line up.

[tasonir]

It's certainly a niche spell, but I wouldn't say it's redundant. Lantern removes all offense (or at least it's supposed to - some things like rods still work), Cblink is almost entirely different, and while you might use it to escape and fight monsters in smaller groups, there are times like Ziggs where this isn't applicable. Dithmenos is not available to characters who would rather have any other god, and I don't think we should restrict darkness to dith/demonspawn only.

Darkness is somewhat like a level 9 spell in that it's not really required for winning but it's cool to have, even though it's only level 7 and possibly 6 if this gets enough support. But I wouldn't remove it any more than I'd remove fire storm. I'd rather make it more useful (level 6) than remove it.

[duvessa]

I also should have added that I don't bother with it because I have access to a Lantern, cBlink, and/or Dithmenos when I find it. To me, these make the effect redundant.

I don't tend to say things like, "sounds like a good candidate for removal," but sometimes the stars just line up.

lantern should definitely be removed first of these, FWIW

[archaeo]

I think I like current lantern more than darkness, but duvessa's probably right

[njvack]

I also should have added that I don't bother with it because I have access to a Lantern, cBlink, and/or Dithmenos when I find it.

Wait, did Dith get changed to reduce LOS or something? I thought the only sources of LOS reduction in Crawl were the Lantern, Nightstalker, and Darkness. Well, I guess Robe of Night. Oh, it looks like there's a card that gives the darkness effect, too.

[Berder]

I've never used Darkness except in zigs. It costs too many MP to keep up all the time, and what am I going to use it for, sneaking up on things to stab them? If it's a pack they'll just wake up anyway, and even if it's alone I have to cast it after I see them. If I cast it after I see them, that takes a turn in their LOS when they might wake up, so it only saves me a single move when I'm trying to approach them. Usually, if I want to stab something I'm approaching from around a corner anyway, a situation where Darkness does nothing.

[rockygargoyle]

I also should have added that I don't bother with it because I have access to a Lantern, cBlink, and/or Dithmenos when I find it.

Wait, did Dith get changed to reduce LOS or something? I thought the only sources of LOS reduction in Crawl were the Lantern, Nightstalker, and Darkness. Well, I guess Robe of Night. Oh, it looks like there's a card that gives the darkness effect, too.

Bleed Smoke reduces the effective LOS (triggers every time you get hit if you used shadow form)

[mps]

Reducing LoS is useful in a lot of circumstances unrelated to stabbing. Ninja'ing runes and the orb are good uses, but just generally avoiding combat or controlling the number of combatants at range makes it useful. It also pairs well with silence. The problem is it's not nearly useful enough to justify getting a level 7 spell in a school like hexes. If it were level 5, I think it would be very popular as a support spell on melee characters (i.e. it would figure nontrivially in optimal play). At level 6, it would be borderline as a melee support spell, but much better than the current situation.

There seems to be a baseline assumption that characters using hexes are so-called "stabbers." This assumption is terrible for the hexes school.

[gammafunk]

Implemented in 0.17-a0-1580-g9bc13d1. I'll accept the thanks on behalf of MarvinPA.

[mps]

huzzah!

[byrel]

Clearly more evidence of the dev team hating casters. Especially true casters who nobly avoid the lesser arts of Hexes and Charms.

[Siegurt]

Clearly more evidence of the dev team hating casters. Especially true casters who nobly avoid the lesser arts of Hexes and Charms.

Don't hate the caster, hate the spell.