zin food

[pubby]

Zin's food conduct has become more painful in recent versions, especially for mages. There are three causes. First, poisonous chunks were removed, second, the Depths contains fewer animals than the old D:16-27, and third, Vitalisation no longer provides sustenance.

The conduct is worth keeping for flavour purposes alone, but I'd really like to see these food issues fixed. One option is to have Zin passively increase the amount of sustenance that eating food provides, à la Jesus feeding 5000 people with five loaves of bread.

[onget]

poisonous chunk has been removed in a very stupid reason.
(do not want to rPois in the fight against poison attack monsters(or poison branch))

We need to get it back

[grisamentum]

One option is to have Zin passively increase the amount of sustenance that eating food provides, à la Jesus feeding 5000 people with five loaves of bread.

I mean, Zin is already one of the strongest gods in extended. I think it's ok that it was made less strong.

Besides, the more reasonable interpretation of that story in the Gospels is that the crowd was already carrying all the food they needed.

[Berder]

The Zin change and food changes do nothing to reduce Zin's power in extended. What they do is harm mages who take Zin early. I'm fully in favor of this change; let Zin multiply the loaves and fishes.

[dowan]

In extended, zin is almost as good as TSO. So he might as well not exist. (TSO is super makhleb in extended) In pre-extended, he's better than TSO, but the food conduct is extremely annoying. However, Zin already is annoying with mages even outside that, namely due to the fact that casting a spell cancels recite, although melee fighting doesn't.

The situations where Zin saves your life are the situations where a good god would have prevented you from being in danger in the first place.

[Sar]

Zin is arguably better than TSO in extended (he has the best panic button in the game) and, unlike TSO, Zin makes sense in regular game as well.

[dowan]

TSO ensures you never have to press a panic button by keeping your HP and MP full, and doubling your damage(or whatever holy wrath does), but if you do, you've got a really good one in divine warrior. (I'm not including abyss or slime here, TSO is basically worthless there, Zin wins in those areas hands down). Even if you already found a holy wrath weapon, it's tough to justify Zin in extended from my point of view.

When zin was 100% immunity to hell effects, he was at least competitive for hell. Now, the huge HP+MP restore + guaranteed holy brand + rN+++ mean TSO is THE god for extended, if you can take him. If not, makhleb because he's TSO-lite in extended.

[CanOfWorms]

Vitalization is good for mummy curses.

[Sar]

TSO ensures you never have to press a panic button

I'm not a good player so I still need a panic button from time to time even with TSO, and TSO is my go-to postend god. Sometimes you tab into a fiend and it suddenly torment-torment-hellfires you. Sometimes, hell effects do something dangerous. Sometimes, Serpent of Hell shows up in a bad moment. If you are really careful you might not need ut, but I don't play carefully and I suspect most people don't. CBlink wasn't reliable until recently, and Sanctuary is just the best thing.

HW is good but there are other good brands (antimagic, speed).

[grisamentum]

It's quite easy to use both as appropriate, of course (TSO seems better in Tomb, but as you say Zin is better in Abyss). Especially since you get to keep the HW weapon from TSO anyway.

[dowan]

TSO ensures you never have to press a panic button

I'm not a good player so I still need a panic button from time to time even with TSO, and TSO is my go-to postend god. Sometimes you tab into a fiend and it suddenly torment-torment-hellfires you. Sometimes, hell effects do something dangerous. Sometimes, Serpent of Hell shows up in a bad moment. If you are really careful you might not need ut, but I don't play carefully and I suspect most people don't. CBlink wasn't reliable until recently, and Sanctuary is just the best thing.

HW is good but there are other good brands (antimagic, speed).

Fair enough, I was using hyperbole there. But my point is that TSO's health and MP regen keeps you very safe through most of extended, and summoning angels is very effective for those times when the regen isn't enough. The rN+++ is also extremely helpful. I'm also counting a HW weapon as a big plus for TSO, although it is obviously true that you can get a HW weapon and then change to zin, and it's quite easy to get max piety quite quickly in extended for both of these gods.

I personally find that health regen on kills is a huge boon for extended, since there's a lot of popcorn that gives a lot of health when killed there. With Zin, you lose that benefit, and due to that you have to hit your panic buttons more often.

[Berder]

Zin mages were weakened. The real issue isn't the nerf to Zin, it's the nerf to mages with Zin. It serves to make Zin worshipers less diverse, i.e. preferentially just fighters. This problem can be solved by letting Zin multiply nutrition or just by removing the conduct.

Zin's extended endgame performance is not that relevant (personally I'd prefer TSO) because the food issues happen in the early-mid game, and are generally resolved by extended.

I'd love to see Zin multiply nutrition endlessly so the player just stays "satiated" with no eating required! Then he'd actually be good for mages and it would counteract the conflict of "recite" with spellcasting.

[bel]

Nobody really knows why poisonous chunks were made inedible. It is completely illogical.

There was some suggestion that the devs wanted to try a chunkless branch, but then Snake still has anacondas, salamanders and shock serpents, and spider still has tarantellas and orb spiders. In this case, I don't think there is a method in the madness.

[Siegurt]

Nobody really knows why poisonous chunks were made inedible. It is completely illogical.

See the commit notes: http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a= ... 9f8b6a458b
and these forum topics on the subject:
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=15857&p=216263
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=15860

[bel]

Nobody really knows why poisonous chunks were made inedible. It is completely illogical.

See the commit notes: http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a= ... 9f8b6a458b
and these forum topics on the subject:
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=15857&p=216263
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=15860

I know about the commit and the forum topics. In fact I posted quite a few times there myself. It was during those exchanges that I got the sense that nobody knew what it was about, and the stated reason is totally illogical. I don't want to rehash the arguments I made there in an unrelated thread here, so I won't say much more.