Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

Shoals Surfer

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Post Friday, 17th July 2015, 20:46

Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

Why Make a Change?
Every player with a few wins under their belt knows that the stretch from Lair to Depths is the least interesting part of the game. People still die there, mostly due to carelessness or boredom, and new players can find this section difficult due to their unfamiliarity. The midgame has been shortened and changed several times already to make it more interesting.

Why is the Midgame Boring?
The simplest answer is that, for a competent player, there is no tactical situation in the Lair--Depths section that can't be avoided or trivialized with smart use of consumables. And, unlike the early game, you WILL have the consumables you need (97% of the time). The result is that there is no tension for the player. If you pay attention, you never need to think too hard about your next move.

How Can it be Fixed?
I'll start by saying how it SHOULDN'T be fixed (in my opinion). The midgame shouldn't be made harder outright. Increasing the generation of dangerous monsters like black mambas and orc priests doesn't fix anything--it just makes players more likely to die. This is especially true for newer players, who already have a hard time getting into the game. About a year ago, I convinced a friend to give Crawl a try. He liked it at first, but gave up after getting killed by a spiny frog for the third time. He said that it didn't feel like there was anything he could do.

That got me thinking: making tactical situations increasingly deadly is both frustrating and uninteresting. Therefore, instead of making the midgame harder, I propose that we make it smarter. I feel that, in general, Crawl would be more fun if it took more brainpower, and involved less bashing open XP pinatas.

My Two-Fold Proposal
First: the midgame should be where you make long term decisions about your character. It already is that, to some extent, but XP is currently so abundant that you can branch into anything you need by the time you reach Zot. The Lair and its branches can be shortened again, but I think a more elegant solution is to reduce the base XP given by certain pre-Depths enemies. For example, basic frogs shouldn't give more XP than orc wizards and priests. With lower experience, you have a new decision: "Should I specialize to keep my damage/defenses competitive with upcoming enemies, or should I start training skills that are more situational?" There's also a risk-reward question for lower-level characters: "Is the XP I would get from these popcorn enemies worth the chance of having to use a consumable?" If the answer is no, you move on and come back later if necessary. The midgame can keep its current level of "Danger" for new players while adding a layer of depth for veterans.

Second: add diverse tactical challenges that can be avoided or mitigated by strategy. I don't necessarily mean adding spoiler-heavy enemies and branches, but that can be part of it. What I'm thinking of is something similar to Portal Vaults: risky tactical situations with commensurate rewards, which you can choose to avoid. Existing vaults can be turned into mini-branches that are generated like Lair branches. Two or three are guaranteed to appear. When combined with the lower experience proposal, situations will arise where you're behind the power curve and need to decide whether you're ready for one of the mini-branches you come across.

There are other possibilities for tactical situations that require strategic thought beforehand. I had an idea for an enemy that travels through walls and moves quickly, but it has poor hearing and often forgets where you are. It would probably do something that indicates its approach, like changing the color of nearby walls. This enemy complicates the usual tactic of fighting in a corridor and is hard to lure out due to its hearing. Fighting requires situational awareness and knowledge of your escape options. There could also be a unique merchant that starts out neutral to you and acts as a wondering shop. You can try to kill him to get his stuff for free, but he's basically a Spelunky shopkeeper who can kill you very quickly.

Spider Stomper

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Post Friday, 17th July 2015, 21:19

Re: Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

portal vaults does not solve anything. Simply run away or random death, when you become stronger, to return. it is boring.

Shoals Surfer

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Post Friday, 17th July 2015, 21:28

Re: Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

onget wrote:portal vaults does not solve anything. Simply run away or random death, when you become stronger, to return. it is boring.

I'm not sure what your saying...but the idea isn't to just make portal vaults permanent. You should have to think about whether it will be more dangerous to try the mini-branch or to try a Lair branch. "Going somewhere else to get stronger" won't work if the reduced experience idea is implemented. The goal is ultimately to make calculated risks necessary to advance past the midgame.

Spider Stomper

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Post Friday, 17th July 2015, 21:38

Re: Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

vaults (dungeon feature) misunderstanding.

portal vault does nothing. If you have not played very OP character, it will ignore it. Or die.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 17th July 2015, 21:40

Re: Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

Just to clarify, when you say "Lair to depths" are you including The Vaults in this lump, or do you have some other scheme in mind.

Personally I do D:1->Lair, Lair1-8, orc 1-8, D->Vaults entrance, then both lair rune branches, then vaults, then the rest of D then depths then zot (With possibly elf and other optional branches in there somewhere, I often do abyss when I get to depths because I feel like it)

Which part of the game do you mean, specifically, is boring.
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Halls Hopper

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Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 01:06

Re: Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

I don't have problem with anything else, but the fact that Lair is way too long. Easily the worst part of the game for me, full of boring melee enemies. The length of Lair also trivializes Orc most of the time because of the over leveling.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 01:12

Re: Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

Vaults is a pretty fun branch usually, also the first rune branch can be fun/challenging as well. If anything, going to Depths with 2 runes and V:1-4 cleared is usually a mostly trivial experience despite Depths featuring some of the most dangerous monsters in the game.

Halls Hopper

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Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 01:19

Re: Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

Sar wrote: going to Depths with 2 runes and V:1-4 cleared is usually a mostly trivial experience despite Depths featuring some of the most dangerous monsters in the game.


Mostly, however, in my experience Depths is very random in difficulty. It's very refreshing because of the surprise factor, but it's still fair in a sense that at this point of the game you usually have a hefty amount of tools at your disposal. It's actually the favourite part of the game for me.

Shoals Surfer

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Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 01:50

Re: Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

Siegurt wrote:Just to clarify, when you say "Lair to depths" are you including The Vaults in this lump, or do you have some other scheme in mind.

Personally I do D:1->Lair, Lair1-8, orc 1-8, D->Vaults entrance, then both lair rune branches, then vaults, then the rest of D then depths then zot (With possibly elf and other optional branches in there somewhere, I often do abyss when I get to depths because I feel like it)

Which part of the game do you mean, specifically, is boring.
I was mostly talking about Lair, Lair branches, Orc and Dungeon. You can add early Elf in there too. Vaults is a good branch that doesn't need to change. When I said Depths, I really meant the end of Dungeon, since I always finish that before finishing Vaults.

From now on, I'm defining the midgame as the section from Lair entrance to early Vaults or the end of Dungeon. The biggest culprit here is Lair and Lair branches, though Orc deserves a mention because you can skip it and then come back over-leveled.

Spider Stomper

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Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 02:00

Re: Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

lair and lair branches monster is simply melee and poison spam

Shoals Surfer

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Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 02:09

Re: Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

More concrete proposal:

Add a gate to the Lair entrance that stops you from entering until you hit a switch that generates in an early Orc level. Shorten Lair to four levels and make the Slime entrance generate on Lair 4.

Fun option: change Slime into a hybrid of current Slime and Lair. Each Slime level would start by generating a Lair level, then parts of a Slime level are generated on top of it. The result is a kind of "Slime-infested forest." As you go deeper, more of the level is slimey and more enemies are generated per level. The ending stays as it is.

mps

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Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 03:17

Re: Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

I think midgame more or less has to be boring for well-built characters, given the fact that a lot of combos, if played in the way one naively expects to based on their descriptions, are fairly bad and can actually struggle with lair monsters (and in spite of that, they're still considered to be a central part of crawl, not a curiosity to be ignored for game balance purposes). I don't agree that lair branches have zero tactics to them. Snake, swamp, and shoals all have their little things and even spider throws a lot of uniques at you + ghost moths. I agree that consumables get you out of anything in the midgame assuming you have them, but this is now true everywhere in trunk. The removal of ctele (?) and the attendant removal of -ctele (?!) means that blink scrolls let you escape any threat in the game, except in the orbrun where dig and fog serve the same purpose.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 03:35

Re: Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

File200 wrote:Why Make a Change?
Every player with a few wins under their belt knows that the stretch from Lair to Depths is the least interesting part of the game. People still die there, mostly due to carelessness or boredom, and new players can find this section difficult due to their unfamiliarity. The midgame has been shortened and changed several times already to make it more interesting.
I disagree with this slightly: I think that zot and extended are even easier. And portal vaults make the situation worse, not better: stronger characters get stronger and characters that can't do it safely just don't.

File200 wrote:Add a gate to the Lair entrance that stops you from entering until you hit a switch that generates in an early Orc level.
If people are supposed to do the higher-level dungeon levels before the lower-level ones then why do the lower-level ones exist at all?

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Shoals Surfer

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Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 04:03

Re: Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

duvessa wrote:I disagree with this slightly: I think that zot and extended are even easier. And portal vaults make the situation worse, not better: stronger characters get stronger and characters that can't do it safely just don't.
Meh. Zot is easy, but not easier than Lair. I find extended to be a lot more random than the midgame, though I could probably survive it more often if I managed consumables better. You're 100% right about portal vaults. My idea wasn't adding more of those, though. It was to turn portal vaults into mini-branches like the old Hive, while guaranteeing that a certain number of them generate. Combined with lower experience, the situation changes from "Should I try this risky branch or just move on?" to "Which of these branches will be less risky to tackle? Can I tackle the Dungeon or a Lair Branch without the extra XP and loot?"

duvessa wrote:If people are supposed to do the higher-level dungeon levels before the lower-level ones then why do the lower-level ones exist at all?

I had a justification for this, but now I'm honestly wondering why the lower-level branches exist at all.

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 06:39

Re: Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

I don't agree with the premise that the midgame is easier than other parts of the game.

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Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 08:54

Re: Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

The game gets easier and easier as you progress, with occasional spikes like V5 and Zot5. For me it's start to be boring when I have "developed" my character, that is, when there isn't any important tactical questions anymore about what skills to develop. This usually happens (for me) after Lair+Dungeon(+Orc). Counting the number of levels and the enemies I am around half of the game, but on a subjective character development feeling scale I am just about to finish the game. So I easily get bored after that.

I understand that some players like to play very strong characters. I think that's why "extended" parts are a good idea, and I think the second half of the "main" part should be shortened, and make the extended part more varied for those players who enjoy it.

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Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 10:55

Re: Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

In a nutshell the game needs more high risk high reward situations and less grinding. More depths style vault levels and less random levels full of experience pinatas that I just tab through. The awful truth is that computer generated scenerios just are not interesting, or at least not with our generation algorithms.

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Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 15:42

Re: Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

Sar wrote:Vaults is a pretty fun branch usually, also the first rune branch can be fun/challenging as well. If anything, going to Depths with 2 runes and V:1-4 cleared is usually a mostly trivial experience despite Depths featuring some of the most dangerous monsters in the game.


I generally find the opposite is true; Depths is a huge step up in difficulty from any earlier part of the game, and V5 and Zot are generally something of an anticlimax in comparison.

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Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 16:24

Re: Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

Jeremiah wrote:I generally find the opposite is true; Depths is a huge step up in difficulty from any earlier part of the game, and V5 and Zot are generally something of an anticlimax in comparison.

I generally find the opposite of this to be true. I am usually able to clear Depths:1-5 before I am able to securely take on Vaults:5. I've lost far too many characters to that trap. Zot5 is an anticlimax to V5, IMO, but maybe I just haven't been there enough.

As to the OP, perhaps it would be wise, given the questions and independent definitions thus far supplied, to rigorously define the game sections. To that end, i can only add my own analysis of the game's conceptual acts:

Early game: Dungeon 1-12, Lair, Orc
Mid-game: D:13-15, Snake/Spider, Shoals/Swamp
Late game: Vaults, Depths, Crypt, Zot
Extended: Abyss, Pandemonium, Hells, Tomb

The lists are only roughly in the order they are encountered.

To me, the most interesting thing are the dungeon vaults (should be another term to avoid confusion between the handmade map vaults and Vaults levels, but that's an aside). I encountered one on Depths:4 the other day that was just nuts - difficult, interesting and fun, even though my character nearly died a couple times there. The rewards were excellent, and it was tactically challenging. The vault covered the entire map.
  Code:
Depths:4: lemuel_river_lethe, abyss_entry, pan_entry, hell_entry, serial_shops,
          uniq_xtahua

Perhaps more like this might go a long way toward your suggested direction without the need for more radical development?

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Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 16:39

Re: Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

@Aule: I agree, V:5 is more dangerous, exciting and terrifing than Z:5. Mostly due to extremly open layout, restricted stairs, and guarantued noise via Vault Vanguards. This is, I believe, a good thing.

Shoals Surfer

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Post Sunday, 19th July 2015, 03:50

Re: Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

acvar wrote:In a nutshell the game needs more high risk high reward situations and less grinding. More depths style vault levels and less random levels full of experience pinatas that I just tab through. The awful truth is that computer generated scenerios just are not interesting, or at least not with our generation algorithms.

Aule wrote:To me, the most interesting thing are the dungeon vaults (should be another term to avoid confusion between the handmade map vaults and Vaults levels, but that's an aside). I encountered one on Depths:4 the other day that was just nuts - difficult, interesting and fun, even though my character nearly died a couple times there. The rewards were excellent, and it was tactically challenging. The vault covered the entire map.

Perhaps more like this might go a long way toward your suggested direction without the need for more radical development?
That's the best idea I've seen. Forget about the whole portal vault/mini branch thing. Make larger Dungeon and Lair vaults (similar to branch ends) and then guarantee that at least one generates for each set of levels, however you want to divide it up. Also shorten Lair and reduce the XP given by popcorn enemies.

sanka wrote:The game gets easier and easier as you progress, with occasional spikes like V5 and Zot5. For me it's start to be boring when I have "developed" my character, that is, when there isn't any important tactical questions anymore about what skills to develop. This usually happens (for me) after Lair+Dungeon(+Orc). Counting the number of levels and the enemies I am around half of the game, but on a subjective character development feeling scale I am just about to finish the game. So I easily get bored after that.

I understand that some players like to play very strong characters. I think that's why "extended" parts are a good idea, and I think the second half of the "main" part should be shortened, and make the extended part more varied for those players who enjoy it.
Skill choice is strategy, not tactics, but I get what you're saying. My solution is reducing XP and possibly skewing the XP curve a different way.

Here's an idea for Zot that would make it a bit more interesting while forcing you to make more choices about character development: Give Zot a randomized gimmick every game that forces you to adapt your character or over-level. Give the player a taste of it by making the Zot entrance a large vault that features the gimmick. This could be any number of things: milder hell effects (reflavored for Zot), slowly shifting terrain, slippery stairs that take more time to climb, Draconians that patrol around stairs instead of chasing you, etc.
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Post Sunday, 19th July 2015, 05:00

Re: Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

I'd personally like to see some people test out the idea of just axing several levels out of the middle of the game. If you went to, say, Lair:5, Orc:3, Elf:2, Branches:3? I honestly have no idea how this would end up playing out, but it's always been a proposal I think is worth trying out. You cut a bunch of XP and loot, as well as a number of dead levels, and probably ramp up the difficulty a bit at every point that needs it.

Of course, we're already starting that process, with branches going from 5 to 4. The slow approach is probably the right one, since it's always good to dial it in.

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Sar

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Post Sunday, 19th July 2015, 20:29

Re: Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

Cutting levels really won't solve the problem. The game currently has no way of limiting experience. There is no true anti-scumming mechanism in the game. Don't get me wrong I don't think the game should have an anti-scumming mechanism. That is just a kludge for bad game design. I have said it before and I will say it again. Make all monsters that generate after the initicial level generation into durable summons so there is absolutely no benefit to scumming in the first place. Make monsters what the should be obstacles not experience penatas. The game would have complete control over the amount of experience in the game until you get to the extended end game, but that is irrelevent, and should not prevent taking steps to fix the main game.

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Post Sunday, 19th July 2015, 20:40

Re: Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

Does anybody really care about people who decide to scum level spawns/Abyss/Pan/whatever? I thought the biggest problem is that people play through midgame the regular way and think "hey, this seems a bit too long".

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Post Sunday, 19th July 2015, 20:42

Re: Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

BTW if ever levels get cut again, it would be awesome to have a one-time warning "attention, this is branch end" . Or an option for that in RC file. force_more for branch-ends. I went in vaults depth from V:8 to V:5, excepected nothing bad at V:5, and got a bad shock from it.

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Sar

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Post Sunday, 19th July 2015, 22:26

Re: Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

Sar wrote:Does anybody really care about people who decide to scum level spawns/Abyss/Pan/whatever? I thought the biggest problem is that people play through midgame the regular way and think "hey, this seems a bit too long".


I agree, but some are suggesting to make the game more interesting by cutting experience by cutting levels. I was just pointing out that it would not work. I don't think it is a good idea to cut levels/experience. All it will do is force people to scum the abyss to play optimally. Go ahead and cut levels, but add in more vaults with more experience to make up the difference and make the game more exciting/challenging while you are at it.

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Post Sunday, 19th July 2015, 22:29

Re: Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

I honestly think smaller maps would solve a lot of the difficulty issues in the game.
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Post Sunday, 19th July 2015, 22:33

Re: Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

acvar wrote:Go ahead and cut levels, but add in more vaults with more experience to make up the difference and make the game more exciting/challenging while you are at it.
acvar wrote:Make all monsters that generate after the initicial level generation into durable summons so there is absolutely no benefit to scumming in the first place. Make monsters what the should be obstacles not experience penatas. The game would have complete control over the amount of experience in the game until you get to the extended end game, but that is irrelevent, and should not prevent taking steps to fix the main game.
tabstorm wrote:I honestly think smaller maps would solve a lot of the difficulty issues in the game.
Implement all of these TIA.

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Post Sunday, 19th July 2015, 23:01

Re: Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

acvar wrote:
Sar wrote:Does anybody really care about people who decide to scum level spawns/Abyss/Pan/whatever? I thought the biggest problem is that people play through midgame the regular way and think "hey, this seems a bit too long".


I agree, but some are suggesting to make the game more interesting by cutting experience by cutting levels. I was just pointing out that it would not work. I don't think it is a good idea to cut levels/experience. All it will do is force people to scum the abyss to play optimally. Go ahead and cut levels, but add in more vaults with more experience to make up the difference and make the game more exciting/challenging while you are at it.


This is a problem with Abyss and Pan. I don't like infinite levels, but it seems they are going to stay.

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Post Sunday, 19th July 2015, 23:06

Re: Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

The midgame is too long because your character doesn't change much, he just gets stronger in the ways he's already strong. So you end up doing the same thing again and again with little suspense about what you're going to do next. As I see it, it's not primarily a question of difficulty, the problem is you are too used to the way your character fights and every fight isn't anything new.

There are two possible solutions. One solution would be to make the midgame shorter, but that's not the only solution. An alternate solution would be to have your character continue to rapidly shift, somehow. A radical way to achieve that would be to set your character back to xl1 for every branch, and adjust the rest of the game to fit, as described in viewtopic.php?f=17&t=16468 .

Another possible way to have the character continue to shift: force the player to periodically change his skills. For instance, there could be a monster that inflicts a long term status effect, "<skill> mania," so e.g. if you get Axe Mania, your character's skill points will gradually transfer from his current weapon skill into Axes. Or if you get Fire Mania your character's skill points will gradually transfer from his current elemental school into Fire Magic. A mania transfers from a single skill to another single skill, and the source skill is chosen to be similar in function to the target skill when possible, so an Axe Mania would prefer take xp from a weapon skill rather than from Fighting or Spellcasting, and Fire Mania would prefer to take from Ice Magic or Conjurations rather than weapon skill.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Sunday, 19th July 2015, 23:15

Re: Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

I think if the game forced me to train certain skills I would never play it again. How can you think that is a good idea?
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Post Monday, 20th July 2015, 06:21

Re: Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

It could be a bad mut:
you are interested in axes.
You love axes!
You only think about axes!!!
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok

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Post Monday, 20th July 2015, 17:58

Re: Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

nago wrote:It could be a bad mut:
you are interested in axes.
You love axes!
You only think about axes!!!
Not a bad malmutate as long as the XP it siphons is low, like 3% per level of mutation. There's enough XP in the game anyway. Besides, there worse things than axes to be obsessed with.

"You are interested in poison magic."
"You love poison magic!"
"You only think about poison magic!!!"

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Post Monday, 20th July 2015, 20:26

Re: Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

nago wrote:It could be a bad mut:
you are interested in axes.
You love axes!
You only think about axes!!!

Level one forces that skill to be trained, level 2 forces it to be focused, and level 3 forces it to be focused *and* drains Xp from other skills into it :)
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Post Saturday, 25th July 2015, 08:19

Re: Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

File200 wrote:Why is the Midgame Boring?

Because you are playing it with OP (for you) characters.

How Can it be Fixed?

There are 2 ways:
1) Play less powerful characters
2) Play my version of crawl where you can customize HP/XP.

The better you become the more often you will get into "I feel bored" situation, it's impossible to fix this problem in standard crawl.

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Post Saturday, 25th July 2015, 08:32

Re: Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

acvar wrote:Cutting levels really won't solve the problem. The game currently has no way of limiting experience. There is no true anti-scumming mechanism in the game. Don't get me wrong I don't think the game should have an anti-scumming mechanism. That is just a kludge for bad game design. I have said it before and I will say it again. Make all monsters that generate after the initicial level generation into durable summons so there is absolutely no benefit to scumming in the first place. Make monsters what the should be obstacles not experience penatas. The game would have complete control over the amount of experience in the game until you get to the extended end game, but that is irrelevent, and should not prevent taking steps to fix the main game.


Also it would solve another problem - decreasing difference between different combos as game progresses. Weak characters spend more time healing and it results in more experience because they have to kill more monsters to autoexplore levels. Similarly OP characters clear levels non-stop and thus get less XP.
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Barkeep

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Post Saturday, 25th July 2015, 17:39

Re: Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

I'm not sure why you would bother with the durable summons; just stop monsters from spawning after level generation, and then remove the few mechanics that would encourage waiting in place (Xom gifts spring to mind, as well as the few gods that don't have piety decay).

I still think just simply cutting out levels, slowly over the next version or two, will probably be enough to change the midgame dynamics. It's the only "easy" solution, as all of the other ways we "might make the midgame more interesting" would require much more significant changes.

bel

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Post Saturday, 25th July 2015, 18:03

Re: Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

Scumming is beside the point, whatever you may think about it. OP is talking about a normal game, where a character more or less explores each level and goes down, not one where someone sits on Lair:1 and scums for monsters.

In general, I am not a big fan of Depths in normal games. There is a difficulty spike, but it seems to me that a large part consists of huge vaults, packed with tough monsters, where the only purpose is to force you to lure them out a few at a time. To some extent, this is the case in other parts as well, but it is more common in Depths. I find Depths pretty good on speedruns, because I can't (don't have to) explore it all, and I am very stretched on XP, which brings me to the next part.

More generally, I am not sure if I would characterize midgame as easier than the other parts. The main thing is that there is a lot of XP in the game. It needs to be cut down to have some strategic choices. I get that crawl largely focuses on tactics (at least according to the philosophy section), but long-term strategy is one way of differentiating games. I like this part of the OP. This could be achieved in many ways, but the simplest to me seems to be cutting levels. The portal vaults part, I don't like so much, for reasons mentioned by others.

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File200

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Post Saturday, 25th July 2015, 18:34

Re: Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

Sandman25 wrote:
File200 wrote:Why is the Midgame Boring?

Because you are playing it with OP (for you) characters.

How Can it be Fixed?

There are 2 ways:
1) Play less powerful characters
2) Play my version of crawl where you can customize HP/XP.

The better you become the more often you will get into "I feel bored" situation, it's impossible to fix this problem in standard crawl.
It's true that Lair is a lot more interesting as OgAE than it is as HaBe, but I'd still like a more even experience. I'm not going to stop playing HaBe.

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Post Saturday, 25th July 2015, 21:01

Re: Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

Sandman25 wrote:
File200 wrote:Why is the Midgame Boring?

Because you are playing it with OP (for you) characters.

How Can it be Fixed?

There are 2 ways:
1) Play less powerful characters
2) Play my version of crawl where you can customize HP/XP.

The better you become the more often you will get into "I feel bored" situation, it's impossible to fix this problem in standard crawl.


Here's the tough part:

In the midgame, Crawl's lethality/interestingness *ratio* is too high. A character weak enough (for a given player) to make Lair interesting is going to splat on L:2. This is not because midgame monsters are too strong or too weak, but because they don't threaten the character in interesting ways. Most midgame monsters are plain beatsticks that deal good damage and have good health.

If midgame is going to be interesting, and especially if it's going to encourage skill diversification, there need to be more meaningful differences among monsters. If it's essentially similar monsters all the way to Depths, then players can keep using the same tricks against every monster once they get the skills developed.

Hydras and early Ogres create a lot of cool situations because a lot of characters can't safely melee them. Adding the Vault Guard family really livened up Vault because they mess with the movement and monster awareness tactics that many characters rely on. Killer bees often make me think and adapt during games because they're so disprortionately affected by certain types of attacks and defenses.

What the good monsters have in common is they all specifically dick over certain builds and tactics. As long as there are enough monsters to affect most builds equally, it's not unbalancing. What the presence of these monsters does do is force players to change tactics and build secondary skillsets. Having more highly specialized enemies through the game would do lot to prevent the character stagnation that happens now.
Wins: DsWz(6), DDNe(4), HuIE(5), HuFE(4), MiBe(3)

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dowan

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Post Saturday, 25th July 2015, 22:16

Re: Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

Lair should be a portal, not a branch, let alone the second longest branch in the game. It's difficult to make a branch interesting whose theme is only-melee-threats and floor-layouts-that-make-positioning-unimportant.

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File200

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Post Sunday, 26th July 2015, 05:25

Re: Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

File200 wrote:It's true that Lair is a lot more interesting as OgAE than it is as HaBe, but I'd still like a more even experience. I'm not going to stop playing HaBe.


When I wanted to play SpAK I doubled monster HP to keep me interested, I didn't ask devs to reduce XP for all characters just because SpAK is too easy for me and I want to play SpAK.
Also I spectated a very hard Fe of Ru at comborobin account who had serious problems right at the stage you are trying to "fix" (first rune, Vaults). It looked so hard that I didn't feel comfortable to take control and continue playing the character so I am sure some combos will be almost ruined by decreasing XP to make HaBe (good that not MiBe :)) more interesting. Just illustrating my point...

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bel

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Post Sunday, 26th July 2015, 05:55

Re: Proposal to Make the Midgame More Interesting

I don't find positioning unimportant in lair. Sure, there are fewer corridors and more wide open spaces, but it is often possible or necessary to run to a choke-point or dig. Pillar dancing is still available.

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