Level 9 translocations spell: Null Sphere

[Berder]

With the removal of Singularity, I think tloc needs a new level 9 spell that is not about direct damage, but about positioning, like the rest of the tloc school. Especially now that ctele is also removed, tloc needs more bling.


"Null Sphere" - level 9 translocations spell.

Flavor: Creates an expanding bubble of bent space. Through its mirror surface, nothing can pass.

How it works: Target an empty square. Creates an impassable field that slowly expands in radius 1 square per turn. If any object - an enemy, item, or yourself - would be in the field when it expands, then that object is pushed backwards by 1 square to remain outside of the field. If there is a line of monsters e.g. in a corridor, it pushes back the whole line back by 1 square.

Null Sphere does no normal damage. Non-flying monsters and items pushed into deadly lava/deep water are destroyed (this includes you). Destroys doors, statues, granite statues, and all walls that aren't unnaturally hard. If the field contacts an unnaturally hard wall, then the field fails (spell ends). If a monster cannot be pushed back, not even by pushing those behind it back first, then the monster is randomly teleported instead. Teleports and blinks while the field is in effect cannot land any monster inside the field.

The field may not be fired across, and functions like a transparent wall.

Spellpower increases the duration of the field, and therefore its maximum radius. When the field reaches its maximum radius it simply vanishes. The intent is that at 200 spellpower it would have radius 7 (LOS-size).


The idea here is to introduce a new level of battlefield control - beyond simply blinking or moving things around, actually denying an area to everybody including yourself.

[chequers]

If there is a line of monsters e.g. in a corridor, it pushes back the whole line back by 1 square.

This use case seems forbidden by the following condition:

If the field contacts a unbreakable wall, then the field fails (spell ends).

[Berder]

If there is a line of monsters e.g. in a corridor, it pushes back the whole line back by 1 square.

This use case seems forbidden by the following condition:

If the field contacts a unbreakable wall, then the field fails (spell ends).

Only unnaturally hard walls are unbreakable by this spell. That's what I meant when I said it destroys "even metal walls." Edited for clarity.

Tactical uses for the spell: breaking into vaults, dumping enemies into water/lava, preventing enemies from getting at you, teleporting away large groups of enemies by crushing them against a wall so they can't move backwards. Nice on Hellion Island.

[Sandman25]

I am not sure if it's OP or too weak but sounds interesting, I'd like to try it.

[bel]

Same as above.

[archaeo]

I am not sure if it's OP

I'd have to say yes, if only because it affects

all walls that aren't unnaturally hard

Part of the problem with singularity was the way it felt like it was stepping on the toes of the elemental spell schools, and I'm not sure that replacing the tloc firestorm-but-better with the tloc-shatter-but-better is the best way to go. And yet, despite that, I still can't think of many cases where null sphere would solve a problem I couldn't solve with lower-level tloc spells, especially cblink.

It's kind of getting hard to find design space in spellcasting that isn't either a) obviously worse than existing options or b) directly opposed to previous design decisions. At this point, tbh, I feel like only more substantial reform efforts could really open up a lot of space, like DO's significant efforts with summoning.

[byrel]

I think it's an interesting idea, but you'd have to be really careful to prevent people accidentally shoving themselves into lava. A Yes. No. prompt if it would happen maybe.

[njvack]

I'd have it teleport creatures, or at least the player, instead of lava-ing them. Lava deaths are terrible.

I also would need to see how it plays. I don't think it's too much like Shatter at all.

Would the center need to stay in LoS, or can you fire and forget?

[byrel]

Would the center need to stay in LoS, or can you fire and forget?

If it's scaling up to LOS at max piety, you certainly can't require the center to be in LOS.

Beyond that, if it actually does no damage, but is the first level 9 utility/escape spell... I think it deserves to be awesome. That's a lot of investment. I'd say fire and forget is OK. It doesn't let you kill things with 0 risk. It lets you escape with 0 risk. Which is fine if you're investing that much, since the level 7 C'Blink basically does that already.

[adozu]

isn't it a lvl9 conjure flame basically?

i think a lvl9 translocation could much more efficiently be "controlled teleport", maybe with some limitation added (the usual warm up time) and possibly un-cancellable self-stasis that lasts a certain amount of time after every use (sort of like death's door).

[mps]

Sounds like the ultimate in optimal drudgery. On one hand, it makes it more optimal than ever to lure everything out of end vaults, to get them into your wall-less realm of ultimate control. On the other, it makes doing that luring simulaneously less risky and much more tedious. Z:5 gameplay would look like this: Shout, cast, walk walk, channel, channel, cast, walk, walk, walk, channel, channel, cast, walk.... until out of the vault, followed by OOD, OOD, OOD, Null sphere, channel, channel, channel, channel, OOD, OOD, etc. When everything is dead, go back for more, repeat six or seven times.

Orbrun becomes even more trivial. It sounds like you can't be smitten or tormented through this thing and you can use it to escape from any monster.

[byrel]

...Orbrun becomes even more trivial. It sounds like you can't be smitten or tormented through this thing and you can use it to escape from any monster.

I don't think we have the same understanding of this. You can't walk through it, but you can see through it. It functions like a transparent wall. That means that you can be smite targetted through it.

While it's generally true that level 9 spells make the orbrun fairly trivial (Pan lord spawn? OK, triple firestorm coming up), this one requires you to be in a tactically good position to use it. You can't OOD through it. I'll agree you could Null sphere->firestorm, but... if you have 2 level 9 spells up you could probably do any number of stupid unkillable things.

isn't it a lvl9 conjure flame basically?

Not at all. This expands over time to be full LOS! and breaks walls down. And nothing can walk or fire through it without smite targetting.
Basically it retains the utility of shatter, and combines it with area denial and control. It's not much like conjure flame, because you can't just throw it up in a corridor and fire across it. You can throw it up and run, but its offensive uses are more situational.

[njvack]

Yeah: it unavoidably blocks space, but leaves that space much harder to block as a result.

One problem I can imagine with this spell's design is that I might sometimes want to cast it at lower power so as to not disrupt too many walls, so I could imagine doing something like wearing Lantern of Shadows or taking off an int ring, which seems a little strange.

[Sandman25]

Maybe while the spell is active there should be ability "Stop Null Sphere" (or "Cancel Null Sphere") like is done for transmutation forms.

[Siegurt]

I don't think we have the same understanding of this. You can't walk through it, but you can see through it. It functions like a transparent wall. That means that you can be smite targetted through it.

You can't be smite targetted through a transparent wall, you can be smite-targetted through a grate (or statue) though, maybe it should function like a grate instead of a transparent wall if allowing smite-targeting through it is the intent (that isn't entirely clear)

[bel]

One suggestion is to make this function like searing ray: you can't do anything except sustain the spell, or it ends. Otherwise it would be optimal to cast this to push away the monster, channel, get some shots in, cast again, and repeat.

[Blobbo]

I think it's easier to implement as a "stasis sphere" - if it just spawns temporary transparent walls in its radius, potentially surrounding anything caught within its boundaries without moving them. I think this would make it even more OP though.

[Sandman25]

If the effect is too weak for level 9 spell, it could be changed to Translocations/Hexes and have an extra effect of unresistable slow/confuse/frenzy.

[byrel]

If people are really worried about using this to permakite, just make it cause glow. We already use that for spells we'd rather people not continuously spam. Make it so that Null field+haste won't put you over the threshold, but close so you can't spam.

[Rast]

This seems more like a force effect (Conjurations, probably) than a translocation effect.

Not every spell school has to go up to 8 or 9.

[bcadren]

You know a Singularity that did no damage, but was better at holding the target still for longer could be worth level 9. Zap a hell lord with Singularity and have it unable to move for ~80-240 aut (depending on spellpower) would be a really good way to just grab the rune and go. [Movement blocked, but not actions, it could still cast, but it would be held (potentially outside of LoS.)]

[Berder]

• Fire and forget
• It wasn't intended to allow smite targeting or torment through it. In fact, it could just be made of temporary transparent unnaturally hard walls instead of a field.
• A "Cancel Null Sphere" ability seems like a good idea
• Instead of dumping the player into lava/deep water the spell could simply automatically end if that's about to happen. That would make sense if you have control over when it ends. Monsters could still be pushed in.

Uses of the Null Sphere:

• Drop it in a small room that contains monsters. Every monster in the room that does not make it through a door will be crushed against the wall, causing them to teleport away. Also shortly afterwards the walls will be destroyed.
• Crush enemies against a single wall, using careful positioning of both yourself and the null sphere to make sure it catches them.
• Instant kill on statues
• Push monsters into lava or deep water
• Break into vaults
• Break LOS with a ranged attacker for several turns (works best in corridors; destroys corridors)
• Split up a group of enemies by dropping it near their middle (works best in corridors, or if the group of enemies is approaching on a diagonal)
• Crush yourself against a wall to teleport yourself. Works well in Abyss, or if you simultaneously want to break LOS with an enemy and teleport away.

[savageorange]

I have to say, I really like points like "Break LOS with a ranged attacker for several turns (works best in corridors; destroys corridors)". It makes me think.. what if the field collapsing -destroyed an additional 1 tile radius beyond the Null Sphere-? That would mean you couldn't cast twice in the same place for the same blocking effect (monsters would just go around, through the extra space created after the first casting collapsed). Intuitively that feels like a tactically interesting (anti-killhole/cheese) idea, what do you think?

[mps]

Glow would do nothing to prevent kiting. You can take a lot of contamination for a short time with minimal ill effects and you can cancel it with cancellation.

The effect proposed here would play like a combination of sanctuary and controlled blink, with weird, shatter-like side effects. Its only downside would be that it wouldn't work in narrow parts of permanent rock vaults, like the chokepoints in z:5. Of course, a character with this spell would also have controlled blink, so that's not a problem.

The effect is similar to, but strictly better than, fog, an effect already considered so powerful it shouldn't exist except as a consumable. I don't see how it fits with current thinking about spells and spell-like effects. If you're looking for a buff to casters, I suggest you consider revisions to the ER spellcasting penalty.

[byrel]

Cancellation is a pretty rare consumable. Costing one is reducing kiting.

[and into]

level 8 tloc
Time Dilation

Your mastery of translocational energies allows you to hem and clip the fabric of space-time. For a very brief window of auts (relative to an outside observer), your actions take no time at all relative to enemies on the same floor, which is as far as the singularity extends. If you change level for any reason, even unintentionally, the effect will end immediately. Do note that casting time dilation is, itself, not instantaneous. Causes very high levels of glow. Beware: With frequent use, paradox effects may (have already) occur(red).



Basically, for ~5 (?) turns all your actions are instantaneous, but you get a ton of glow, and you also get a few points of penance on a special paradox counter that operates in a manner similar to god wrath—you will be hit with flavorful wrath-like effects at random times upon exploration/experience gain. Messages can clue the player in to how many and how severe their paradox effects might be.

Some ideas for paradox effects: sudden glow, blinking, teleport, teleport roulette, a pack of durably summoned chaos spawn appear around you, chaos clouds, polymorph, spontaneous corruption, a version of your future self [use Mara cloning code] attacks you for messing with the space-time continuum, shouting flavorful text ("You have no idea what you are messing with! You must be stopped!" etc.)

[byrel]

That sounds like way too much mechanic for a single spell. Like, you might as well propose a time god or something. I mean a fast time god. Or maybe a fast time lord. Anyhow, the antithesis to chei.

And the paradox effects will clearly be a random level being invaded by flying gargolyes that kill everything.

[and into]

I'm hoping that a lot of the code is already there and you could re-purpose god-wrath, but I don't know how the code is organized so maybe not. I mean even if it was, it would still be a project, but I think the spell (and the paradox effects) could be lots of fun. I mean how else are you going to enjoy getting runes 6 through 15?

[Rast]

This might be a source of inspiration... http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Telepo ... _Subschool

[Blobbo]

level 8 tloc
Time Dilation

Someone loves http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Time_Stop.

Note that it's not the ridiculously OP time stop that's in the Baldur's Gate games where you just stop time and then just drop 5x Meteor Swarm on the heads of everyone else who's frozen in time.

[Berder]

I'd say time dilation would be a level 9 spell (being more powerful than disjunction) except for the wrathlike consequences. Having it be level 8 with consequences might be better considering level 9 is a lot of investment for a spell that isn't primary damage. The same approach might work for Null Sphere as well.

[Quazifuji]

This might be a source of inspiration... http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Telepo ... _Subschool

Also has some similarities to the time magic from TOME. The paradox mechanic in particular. In Tome, time spells increase a paradox meter. Spell failure rate increases with the paradox meter, and at high failure rates spells can cause "anomalies".

TOME also has some really cool time travel spells, although I don't know how well they'd work in DCSS and they'd probably be a nightmare to program. See the Threads (you play the next several turns three times, then choose which outcome to keep) and Cease to Exist (choose an enemy, after the next several turns time rewinds to whether you can the spell, except if you killed the chosen enemy they stay dead) are my personal favorites. Time travel mechanics probably fall into the "better as a god power than a spell" category. Especially because of how ridiculously powerful they can easily get.

[and into]

I'd say time dilation would be a level 9 spell (being more powerful than disjunction) except for the wrathlike consequences. Having it be level 8 with consequences might be better considering level 9 is a lot of investment for a spell that isn't primary damage. The same approach might work for Null Sphere as well.

Yeah, that was my line of thought. Plus the whole paradox thing could be interesting in its own right, and you could have some funny bits of flavor that aren't in tension with game play. In general, I feel that there is some unexplored design space in terms of spells with powerful effects but also drawbacks aside from experience investment and MP/hunger cost. It shouldn't be the case that all spells are like Revivification, of course, nor should they all be double-edged swords the way many forms, Discord, and Inner Flame are. But I think there are some fun things that could be done with powerful magic effects that come with some kind of additional cost.

[duvessa]

This might be a source of inspiration... http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Telepo ... _Subschool

Also has some similarities to the time magic from TOME. The paradox mechanic in particular. In Tome, time spells increase a paradox meter. Spell failure rate increases with the paradox meter, and at high failure rates spells can cause "anomalies".

TOME also has some really cool time travel spells, although I don't know how well they'd work in DCSS and they'd probably be a nightmare to program. See the Threads (you play the next several turns three times, then choose which outcome to keep) and Cease to Exist (choose an enemy, after the next several turns time rewinds to whether you can the spell, except if you killed the chosen enemy they stay dead) are my personal favorites. Time travel mechanics probably fall into the "better as a god power than a spell" category. Especially because of how ridiculously powerful they can easily get.

Last time I played TOME, those spells didn't even actually work in TOME.

[archaeo]

That sounds like way too much mechanic for a single spell.

Isn't it basically just ddoor, except shorter and not as good?

[byrel]

No, I mean the whole paradox meter with random paradox effects, etc. That's a ton of burden of knowledge. That's the amount of investment I expect for an entire school of spells. Or a god.

A single spell shouldn't deserve 5 paragraphs of spoilers. That one sounds like it would.

[dowan]

This might be a source of inspiration... http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Telepo ... _Subschool

Also has some similarities to the time magic from TOME. The paradox mechanic in particular. In Tome, time spells increase a paradox meter. Spell failure rate increases with the paradox meter, and at high failure rates spells can cause "anomalies".

TOME also has some really cool time travel spells, although I don't know how well they'd work in DCSS and they'd probably be a nightmare to program. See the Threads (you play the next several turns three times, then choose which outcome to keep) and Cease to Exist (choose an enemy, after the next several turns time rewinds to whether you can the spell, except if you killed the chosen enemy they stay dead) are my personal favorites. Time travel mechanics probably fall into the "better as a god power than a spell" category. Especially because of how ridiculously powerful they can easily get.

Last time I played TOME, those spells didn't even actually work in TOME.

Those spells have been reworked and changed for the new version, so now they have new effects which don't work properly.

I do like the idea of some sort of time effect for translocations, and it sort of seems to fit, although that brings up a suggestion that might not be welcome. Make Haste level 6 charms/tloc.

[archaeo]

I do like the idea of some sort of time effect for translocations, and it sort of seems to fit, although that brings up a suggestion that might not be welcome. Make Haste level 6 charms/tloc.

I think it's fair to say that the only people who might be in favor of such a change would really prefer to just remove the spell altogether. I think people have been trying to find some halfway measure between haste at charms 6 and removal for as long as it's been a debate, and nothing has really stuck, mostly because haste is good enough that it's worth nearly every reasonable investment and raising it above that level would just render it functionally removed (i.e. nobody would learn level 9 dual-school haste).

Something tells me that adding time effects to tloc wouldn't pass muster, but it could make for a really delightful god if done well.

[dowan]

Well, maybe someone wouldn't train charms from 0 and tloc from 0 to cast a level 6 dual school spell, just like someone probably wouldn't train fire magic and conjurations from 0 just to cast firebolt, but if you were already using a lot of charms and tloc, then it would make sense to train a bit more to pick it up. Isn't it more desirable that some tools fit certain characters better than others, instead of some tools being so good, and cheap enough so basically everyone should get them?

[archaeo]

I don't think adding the other ~*~no brainer~*~ school to haste would really move the needle much on that, dowan, but that's a statement based on nothing except an assumption.

That's why I say that anybody inclined to nerf haste probably would rather delete it, especially since they already have all the rhetorical ammunition needed to just remove it outright: it's a spell that duplicates a consumable (cf. identify, teleport self, flight, etc.) while simultaneously enabling frequently disliked Hypothetically Optimal Playstyles (cf. swiftness, fast spider form, etc.). Part of me thinks the only reason it hasn't been removed at this point is because none of the devs particularly wants to suffer the inevitable player wrath, though it's also possible some of them might see that as a real opportunity for a twofer.

[Rast]

Demonic Gateway
Level 9 Translocations/Summonings

A portal to the depths of Hell itself opens, and a horde of demons swarm forth.

Description: Like Malign Gateway, but awesome.

After casting the spell, a portal begins to open somewhere in LOS. There is a delay of three turns, and then a "1" demon is summoned on or as close to the portal as possible. On each of the next 10+2d(spellpower/40) turns, there emerges either: a "2" demon, a "3 and a "4" demon together, or nothing. Then the portal closes and all summoned demons time out immediately.

All demons will be summoned from the same hell branch, chosen at random at the time of casting. A player paying careful attention will probably be able to figure out which branch that is.

Each demon summoned this way has an independent (60+spellpower/50)% chance of being allied; otherwise hostile.

If the character is not in Abyss or Pan, they may walk to the portal (clearing away hostile demons as needed) and enter it, which immediately transports them to a random spot on a random level (1-6) of the chosen Hell branch. Any adjacent hostile demons follow. The portal closes immediately.

[byrel]

I kind of like it. It's the ultimate escape spell with good drawbacks and some risky but potent damage potential. (The risk comes mostly from the fact that 'allied' fiends are potentially nasty. I believe they are delighted to incidentally torment and hellfire you. The allied thing is NOT going to matter for a level 9 dual-school spell with those numbers.)

On the other hand, I'm not sure it's good enough to be dual-skill. Perhaps make it Level 9 translocations, and it summons hostile abyss monsters, and passing through it takes you to Abyss:5.

[Rast]

It's not meant as an escape spell, hence the three-turn delay before the portal is useable. What you suggest sounds an awful lot like Lucy's self-banish.

The point of the portal is to let you speed up hell rune searching.

[Berder]

If it's level 9 dual school, the demons should always be allied. It needs to be stronger than dragon's call (level 9 single school) and the dragons from that are allied and autoattack when summoned.

[byrel]

The point of the portal is to let you speed up hell rune searching.

I don't agree with a skill whose point is to make a particular branch easier. That can be a side effect, but as a design goal it's not very flexible, well rounded, or even really worth it.

If it's level 9 dual school, the demons should always be allied. It needs to be stronger than dragon's call (level 9 single school) and the dragons from that are allied and autoattack when summoned.

Agreed. But I don't think a summon greater demon with no additional flavor is particularly good (steps a bit on mahkleb), not really worth dual skill level 9, and just a bit boring. I don't think I'd ever choose it over dragon's call, which I'd already have.

I like the abyss, because it's more dangerous than lugonu (A:5) and still an escape spell of unparalleled power. And just a level 9 single school.

[giovform]

level 8 tloc
Time Dilation

Your mastery of translocational energies allows you to hem and clip the fabric of space-time. For a very brief window of auts (relative to an outside observer), your actions take no time at all relative to enemies on the same floor, which is as far as the singularity extends. If you change level for any reason, even unintentionally, the effect will end immediately. Do note that casting time dilation is, itself, not instantaneous. Causes very high levels of glow. Beware: With frequent use, paradox effects may (have already) occur(red).



Basically, for ~5 (?) turns all your actions are instantaneous, but you get a ton of glow, and you also get a few points of penance on a special paradox counter that operates in a manner similar to god wrath—you will be hit with flavorful wrath-like effects at random times upon exploration/experience gain. Messages can clue the player in to how many and how severe their paradox effects might be.

Some ideas for paradox effects: sudden glow, blinking, teleport, teleport roulette, a pack of durably summoned chaos spawn appear around you, chaos clouds, polymorph, spontaneous corruption, a version of your future self [use Mara cloning code] attacks you for messing with the space-time continuum, shouting flavorful text ("You have no idea what you are messing with! You must be stopped!" etc.)

https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6544

Similar idea, rejected with irony, but since you are a mod it is now being respected by others.

[Arrhythmia]

well, and_into also wrote more than three sentences

[giovform]

the core of the idea was rejected, regardless of details,but it is fine, go on the topic

[Rast]

Also that was two and a half years ago.

[giovform]

Yes, it was very different set of high level spells back then