Background Idea: Supplicant


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Post Monday, 6th July 2015, 01:35

Background Idea: Supplicant

This concept is based on the "Random god altar" proposal.

The Supplicant is, essentially, a Wanderer that starts with a god. When you select this background, a random god from the ecumenical temple is assigned to you. Ineligible gods (such as good gods for undead characters) are rerolled. You start with a monk's bonus piety in that religion. After the god is selected, your skills and equipment are randomly assigned. Your skills and equipment are affected by the god choice to some degree. If your start with a spellcasting god, you are guaranteed to have one point in spellcasting and a random level 1 spell memorized. If you start with Trog, you are guaranteed to start with one point in fighting and no points in spellcasting.

As stated before, the Supplicant is equivalent to a Wanderer. This background is not meant to winnable every time. Instead, it's a challenge background that pushes you to play the early in ways that you might not be familiar with.

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Post Monday, 6th July 2015, 01:40

Re: Background Idea: Supplicant

I support this idea, if you can be assigned a god called "Meketrex" as a supplicant.

e: I also note that this is remarkably similar to ecumenical altars as currently implemented in trunk + Wn background. Random gods are cool though, only problem is start scumming, which is somewhat solved with the random altars by not producing them on every game/on d:1.
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Post Monday, 6th July 2015, 03:06

Re: Background Idea: Supplicant

This background would either be the strongest background in the game or the second strongest background in the game behind Be. Getting a god early is extremely strong.

This is particularly unsuitable for a random background, which needs to be a "challenge" background to avoid start-scumming.
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Post Monday, 6th July 2015, 03:28

Re: Background Idea: Supplicant

Wanderers usually start with pretty good stuff, better than other backgrounds in my experience. A background that starts with nothing and low skills, but with a random god might be okay. Still start-scummy though.
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Post Monday, 6th July 2015, 03:55

Re: Background Idea: Supplicant

On the subject of wanderers: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=15936
Wanderers do well enough for streaking, probably in the top half of all classes.
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Post Monday, 6th July 2015, 06:26

Re: Background Idea: Supplicant

reaver wrote:This background would either be the strongest background in the game or the second strongest background in the game behind Be. Getting a god early is extremely strong.

This is particularly unsuitable for a random background, which needs to be a "challenge" background to avoid start-scumming.
I agree this background is an awful idea and all, but...if this is true, why on earth is ecumenical altar allowed to exist? This background has a bigger chance of screwing you over if you use it (1.45 move delay on d:1 is kind of terrible, I suspect it would be the worst background in the game for streaking, just as using ecumenical altar is literally never a good idea) and the altar has the same vulnerability to scumming.
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Post Monday, 6th July 2015, 06:27

Re: Background Idea: Supplicant

Well, the ecumenical altar only spawns one in ten games, and you actually have to play some of the game before you can find it.

e: Really I wouldn't be surprised if the natural spawn rate of "a God I want on D:2 in an overflow vault" is higher than the probability of the ecumenical altar appearing and giving me a God I want.
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Post Monday, 6th July 2015, 13:17

Re: Background Idea: Supplicant

Is chei with ** really that bad on d:2? Shows how often I go Chei...

I don't see how you can get a non-Chei god, other than maybe qaz, and feel you got screwed on a d:2 or 3 ecumenical altar... Even Ash is not absolutely terrible if you get an early start with that much piety.
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Post Monday, 6th July 2015, 13:37

Re: Background Idea: Supplicant

mps wrote:Is chei with ** really that bad on d:2? Shows how often I go Chei...

I don't see how you can get a non-Chei god, other than maybe qaz, and feel you got screwed on a d:2 or 3 ecumenical altar... Even Ash is not absolutely terrible if you get an early start with that much piety.
Well the fact that you can't run from jackals can be fatal to less-than-robust starts. With Chei that early...you'd want good stealth, because if you woke up any of the early game uniques, you're just dead. (Robin, Sigmund or Grinder especially). Chei isn't a bad god though; if you remember he's a defensive god. (Huge stat boosts let you get insane AC/EV/SH total) and cultivate other escape options as early as possible (Dispersal/cBlink; Cause Fear; Passwall; Ring of Teleportation, etc. [since walking is no longer an option]). But yea, he's really hard when your defensive Skills are low and you don't have even escape -scrolls- yet.
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Post Monday, 6th July 2015, 20:25

Re: Background Idea: Supplicant

If you introduce this, I guarantee someone will write a script that just restarts until you get a desired god - not everyone cares that much about their winrate or streaking. You might as well just let people choose a god at the start, at the cost of getting random equipment - which would basically be like letting Wanderers chose gods.

Maybe you could make it so that the god only emerges after you get a certain amount of XP, like enough for a human to reach XL4-5ish? That would make start-scumming less practical. It would also, however, be fairly similar to just having a background that's guaranteed to find an ecumenical altar. I would suggest that this might be a decent replacement for the ecumenical altar, actually. Perhaps it would also make sense to make this part of the Wanderer package as well, as opposed to a new background.

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Post Monday, 6th July 2015, 21:01

Re: Background Idea: Supplicant

If AK can start in the abyss, why not let some background start in the temple? You get altars to choose from, but you are on a deepish dungeon level with starting skills. Is it worthwhile to fight upwards through hostile territory to look for easier piety, XP, and loot?

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Post Tuesday, 7th July 2015, 05:00

Re: Background Idea: Supplicant

After reading the replies, I've come up with two revised Supplicant backgrounds.

Challenge Variation: you start with a random god, a robe, and a ration. Based on your god, you also get a relevant item or spell, and just enough skill to use it. You get nothing beyond that. If you suicide on D:1 or leave the dungeon, the morgue file will say that {god} is very disappointed in you, and it will be a stain on your record.

Surprise Variation: you have been called to the dungeon by an unknown deity. You start as a wanderer, but you have a random god assigned to you. You don't know what deity it is until you find that deity's altar. You cannot join any religion until you have joined the chosen god's religion.


jejorda2 wrote:If AK can start in the abyss, why not let some background start in the temple? You get altars to choose from, but you are on a deepish dungeon level with starting skills. Is it worthwhile to fight upwards through hostile territory to look for easier piety, XP, and loot?
That's sort of interesting. It makes the early game even harder, but doesn't affect much beyond that.

ion_frigate wrote:If you introduce this, I guarantee someone will write a script that just restarts until you get a desired god - not everyone cares that much about their winrate or streaking. You might as well just let people choose a god at the start, at the cost of getting random equipment - which would basically be like letting Wanderers chose gods.

Maybe you could make it so that the god only emerges after you get a certain amount of XP, like enough for a human to reach XL4-5ish? That would make start-scumming less practical. It would also, however, be fairly similar to just having a background that's guaranteed to find an ecumenical altar. I would suggest that this might be a decent replacement for the ecumenical altar, actually. Perhaps it would also make sense to make this part of the Wanderer package as well, as opposed to a new background.
I really don't care if someone decides to write a scumming script. They aren't affecting anyone else's enjoyment of the game. Very few people will go that far for the sake of optimal play, and those that do might as well just turn on wizard mode.

Rolling the ecumenical altar and wanderer background into one option might work.

mps wrote:Is chei with ** really that bad on d:2? Shows how often I go Chei...

I don't see how you can get a non-Chei god, other than maybe qaz, and feel you got screwed on a d:2 or 3 ecumenical altar... Even Ash is not absolutely terrible if you get an early start with that much piety.
I personally think that getting Chei is just part of the challenge. I mean, there are a lot of things that can screw you over on D:1 completely by chance, so the possibility of getting Chei isn't a big deal.

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Post Tuesday, 7th July 2015, 19:27

Re: Background Idea: Supplicant

I'd mostly use this to start scum for Jiyva, but the problem there isn't that start scumming is a thing, but that for some reason they decided to make one of the most interesting gods in the game ridiculously hard to actually find. Seriously, just let me pick Jiyva. I don't see how or why Jiyva is any more "advanced" than another god.

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Post Tuesday, 7th July 2015, 22:48

Re: Background Idea: Supplicant

Jiyva isn't an ecumenical god, so actually this proposal wouldn't let you startscum for it (or Lugonu).

I don't know why Jiyva's so restricted early on either. If it's the worry that people will dive for Slime to get the loot, it'd make more sense to fix that problem rather than (mostly) deny the god to early characters.

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Post Wednesday, 8th July 2015, 00:58

Re: Background Idea: Supplicant

I favor a common early Jiyva minus Slime trivialization.
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Post Thursday, 9th July 2015, 16:33

Re: Background Idea: Supplicant

Even with Slime Trivialization I don't think Jiyva is overpowered. The loot you get from slime is probably outweighed by all the loot Jiyva eats everywhere else anyway. I'm in favor of accessible Jiyva because the one time I worshipped Jiyva I had a ton of fun and I'd like to do that more often, but I also think that discussion is better had in its own thread rather than derailing this one.

As for the Supplicant: I think the problem with this is that it feels too much like a monk with a random god, and that's not necessarily interesting, since you can always just roll a monk and worship the first altar you find if you want to. There's also been a general push to reduce the number of zealots because finding your god is a fun milestone in the early game (especially for new players who still struggle to survive until the temple) and zealots undermine this. While a random god is very different from, say, death knights or healers, I'm still not sure what this background would really add to the game that can't be accomplished by just playing a monk and worshipping at your first altar. If it's the whole "you're committed to the god the game gives you and can't back down without dealing with wrath" the unknown altars already accomplish that, and I think they do it in a more interesting way.

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Post Thursday, 9th July 2015, 17:50

Re: Background Idea: Supplicant

Besides, I'm not sure you can get a ton of loot from slime through jiyva. At least not without several scrolls of blinking.
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Post Friday, 10th July 2015, 20:04

Re: Background Idea: Supplicant

ion_frigate wrote:If you introduce this, I guarantee someone will write a script that just restarts until you get a desired god - not everyone cares that much about their winrate or streaking. You might as well just let people choose a god at the start, at the cost of getting random equipment - which would basically be like letting Wanderers chose gods.

Maybe you could make it so that the god only emerges after you get a certain amount of XP, like enough for a human to reach XL4-5ish? That would make start-scumming less practical. It would also, however, be fairly similar to just having a background that's guaranteed to find an ecumenical altar. I would suggest that this might be a decent replacement for the ecumenical altar, actually. Perhaps it would also make sense to make this part of the Wanderer package as well, as opposed to a new background.


Do people use scripts to start scum wanderers until they get the exact equipment set and skill set they want? If so, does it matter?
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Post Friday, 10th July 2015, 20:40

Re: Background Idea: Supplicant

byrel wrote:Besides, I'm not sure you can get a ton of loot from slime through jiyva. At least not without several scrolls of blinking.
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Post Friday, 10th July 2015, 20:49

Re: Background Idea: Supplicant

dowan wrote:
ion_frigate wrote:If you introduce this, I guarantee someone will write a script that just restarts until you get a desired god - not everyone cares that much about their winrate or streaking. You might as well just let people choose a god at the start, at the cost of getting random equipment - which would basically be like letting Wanderers chose gods.

Maybe you could make it so that the god only emerges after you get a certain amount of XP, like enough for a human to reach XL4-5ish? That would make start-scumming less practical. It would also, however, be fairly similar to just having a background that's guaranteed to find an ecumenical altar. I would suggest that this might be a decent replacement for the ecumenical altar, actually. Perhaps it would also make sense to make this part of the Wanderer package as well, as opposed to a new background.


Do people use scripts to start scum wanderers until they get the exact equipment set and skill set they want? If so, does it matter?
At the moment over 65% of online wanderer games are quits/leaves, so people do startscum them. Writing a script to do it would be pretty easy but starting several games per second would probably be pretty obnoxious to people trying to actually play on the same server.
It would probably be worse for this background since Wn can no longer get good stat distributions and doesn't start with items that are interesting or compare to book backgrounds, whereas this background can give you the god that is better than trog, or the gods that bad players think are better than trog.

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Post Saturday, 11th July 2015, 03:48

Re: Background Idea: Supplicant

duvessa wrote:At the moment over 65% of online wanderer games are quits/leaves, so people do startscum them. Writing a script to do it would be pretty easy but starting several games per second would probably be pretty obnoxious to people trying to actually play on the same server.
It would probably be worse for this background since Wn can no longer get good stat distributions and doesn't start with items that are interesting or compare to book backgrounds, whereas this background can give you the god that is better than trog, or the gods that bad players think are better than trog.


Huh, I hadn't considered the effect on the servers. Does startscumming cause noticeable lag? Or is does it just mess with game history?

Either way, I feel this could be addressed with a simple special-casing: wanderers (and hypothetical random backgrounds) aren't allowed to quit or leave the dungeon. You have to at least tab to your death. This should slow down the scumming process enough that it becomes a waste of time compared to just starting with a real background.

Or, if you want to be more thorough, change wanderer so that it doesn't generate a random background every time. Instead, when you choose it, the game checks to see if a wanderer background exists for you. If not, a background is generated. Now you get that background every time you choose wanderer. If you win with that background (or maybe just get a Rune), your wanderer background is erased and a new one is generated the next time you choose the class. The background can be erased under less harsh conditions, like winning with anything or just waiting a day.

Regarding Supplicants, I think the real problem with the concept is that the strongest gods, Elyvilon and Trog, make your starting skills and equipment largely irrelevant. My goal with the background was to create situations where you have to rely heavily on god powers which may are may not be suited to the race and build you were given. But there are too many gods that just define your entire playstyle, meaning you don't have to put in thought regarding how to play the background.

Here are my final revisions to the idea:
-Gods that are already given by a background aren't chosen, or are given far less weight.
-You start with 0 piety. Nothing else changes.
-Jiyva is a possible starting god.
-If bonus starting piety is kept, your piety gain is cut (or halted) until you find your god's altar and pray at it.

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Post Saturday, 11th July 2015, 04:04

Re: Background Idea: Supplicant

File200 wrote:Huh, I hadn't considered the effect on the servers. Does startscumming cause noticeable lag? Or is does it just mess with game history?
Starting a new game, at the very least, will require generating a level which is expensive.
File200 wrote:Either way, I feel this could be addressed with a simple special-casing: wanderers (and hypothetical random backgrounds) aren't allowed to quit or leave the dungeon. You have to at least tab to your death. This should slow down the scumming process enough that it becomes a waste of time compared to just starting with a real background.

Or, if you want to be more thorough, change wanderer so that it doesn't generate a random background every time. Instead, when you choose it, the game checks to see if a wanderer background exists for you. If not, a background is generated. Now you get that background every time you choose wanderer. If you win with that background (or maybe just get a Rune), your wanderer background is erased and a new one is generated the next time you choose the class. The background can be erased under less harsh conditions, like winning with anything or just waiting a day.
I doubt removing basic interface features for everyone who plays a background, or having people make new accounts to play new characters, will get much traction with the developers.

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Post Saturday, 11th July 2015, 15:25

Re: Background Idea: Supplicant

bcadren wrote:
byrel wrote:Besides, I'm not sure you can get a ton of loot from slime through jiyva. At least not without several scrolls of blinking.
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"Paralyze Jelly" temporarily stops all jellies in los from eating items (for 20 turns). It helps in slime:6 but some stuff will generally get eaten anyway. For this reason I prefer not to go to slime:6 with Jiyva until at least I have apportation, plus preferably haste/swiftness or several scrolls of blinking or passage of golubria, to minimize loot loss. That makes slime:6 not totally free.
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Post Sunday, 12th July 2015, 20:14

Re: Background Idea: Supplicant

mps wrote:Is chei with ** really that bad on d:2? Shows how often I go Chei...

I don't see how you can get a non-Chei god, other than maybe qaz, and feel you got screwed on a d:2 or 3 ecumenical altar... Even Ash is not absolutely terrible if you get an early start with that much piety.

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Post Friday, 17th July 2015, 19:38

Re: Background Idea: Supplicant

duvessa wrote:Starting a new game, at the very least, will require generating a level which is expensive.

I doubt removing basic interface features for everyone who plays a background, or having people make new accounts to play new characters, will get much traction with the developers.

Maybe people who startscum should be given a warning, and then IP banned if they keep doing it. It's a little silly to base design decisions on players who are borking the game anyway.
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Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 14:40

Re: Background Idea: Supplicant

File200 wrote:Maybe people who startscum should be given a warning, and then IP banned if they keep doing it. It's a little silly to base design decisions on players who are borking the game anyway.


It's not that we want to ban people who startscum because they load down the servers. We want to discourage start-scumming in general because it isn't fun, even for most people who feel compelled to do it. For those contrarians who do find it fun, we have wanderer as a relief valve. But for the most part anything you can get with a wanderer you could have gotten in similar form by picking a different class: that wouldn't be true for a background that can start with gods like Fedhas or Chei but only rarely... so you'd have to start-scum if you want to (or don't want to) start with those gods.

What about something like a Monk but with up-front god selection replacing (some of) the bonus piety? Or an Ecumenical Knight that starts in Temple?

(Not saying either of those suggestions would go through, but they at least provide a way to avoid the scumming issue.)

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Post Saturday, 18th July 2015, 22:14

Re: Background Idea: Supplicant

since temple doesn't guarantee all temple gods anymore it would still get startscummed in that proposal, also it would get startscummed because of the jiyva one

Mo with a choice of non-jiyva gods, 15 piety, and no skills would be ok balance-wise

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Post Sunday, 19th July 2015, 02:55

Re: Background Idea: Supplicant

duvessa wrote:since temple doesn't guarantee all temple gods anymore it would still get startscummed in that proposal, also it would get startscummed because of the jiyva one

Mo with a choice of non-jiyva gods, 15 piety, and no skills would be ok balance-wise


That's honestly a more interesting background than current monk. Exclude the non-Ecumenical gods and the gods that have a background for them. Now you get a robe, a ration and a god at the start.

Alternatively, they can have one point each in fighting, spellcasting, dodging, and unarmed combat, but they start without piety. Like they just started their pilgrimage.

I now look forward to some crazy mofo winning with TrMo of Gozag.
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Post Sunday, 19th July 2015, 15:14

Re: Background Idea: Supplicant

File200 wrote:After reading the replies, I've come up with two revised Supplicant backgrounds.

Challenge Variation: you start with a random god, a robe, and a ration. Based on your god, you also get a relevant item or spell, and just enough skill to use it. You get nothing beyond that. If you suicide on D:1 or leave the dungeon, the morgue file will say that {god} is very disappointed in you, and it will be a stain on your record.

Surprise Variation: you have been called to the dungeon by an unknown deity. You start as a wanderer, but you have a random god assigned to you. You don't know what deity it is until you find that deity's altar. You cannot join any religion until you have joined the chosen god's religion.

Not sure why you'd necessarily want to separate the two. You can let players select an ecumenical god at character selection screen. Then when they find the god, they get somewhat more piety than monks, upon joining. That would be balanced with monks, who don't get as much piety at first, but don't necessarily have to hold out for that one god. And while it's somewhat scummable, it's not start-scummable at all, because there's no point in ^qyes on turn 1.

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Post Tuesday, 21st July 2015, 23:50

Re: Background Idea: Supplicant

Well, I certainly rage quit a handful of OpWn when I was going for that ascension. I don't consider it start scumming, as I generally fired up another type of character to untilt, but the fact is a bad wanderer start on a bad species with a bad D:1-3 layout is more frustrating than, say, any MiFi. I'm not sure how much of that 60% is people getting fed up with wanderers for a while and how much is startscumming. It's certainly not VERY prevalent, as you'd probably need to blow through 5-10 starts to get whatever you're looking for, and people are only blowing through 1.5.
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