Let undead players leave ghosts

[chequers]

As per OP. It's cool lore for undead chars to not leave ghosts but I want to terrorise fellow players with all my GhMo deaths.

[Rast]

In return, draconian players shouldn't leave ghosts.

[duvessa]

I personally don't like leaving ghosts.

[dowan]

FR: Remove ghosts!

[Sandman25]

FR: Remove ghosts!

It won't happen but I will thank the message anyway.

[tasonir]

I like player ghosts - they're challenging, plenty of people die to them, and there is a decent reward for them - large chunks of exp. At least if it's early enough that you're still in need of exp, late game it has less impact. Draconian ghost breaths can be a bit overpowered, but hey.

[ion_frigate]

The fact that undead don't leave ghosts is a great incentive for a newer player on a local system to try out new combos. One of the major problems (as a new player) trying something like DEEE is that you're pretty much guaranteed to have at least one Stone Arrow spamming ghost somewhere between D:3 and D:7 constantly. You can try out undead to your heart's content without adding to the problem. Then, once you've cleared the upper levels of ghosts, you can try out some harder combos without having to deal with ghost spam.

This may sound strange to experienced players used to playing on public servers, but to a new player with a local game, it's a really nice and "legal" alternative to just deleting the damn ghosts, or spamming safe, boring 'ghostbuster' combos like MiBe.

[KoboldLord]

Player ghosts serve no useful purpose. Their only unique function is to enable griefing on public servers. The vast majority are ambulatory packets of free xp that slightly devalue the challenge of normal gameplay, while the minority that are generated by griefers are an excellent argument for never playing online. One could argue that they function as procedurally generated uniques that have random abilities and defenses, and therefore act as an unfamiliar threat every time you encounter them, but you could get the same effect by just having procedurally generated random uniques. An intentionally designed random generation system would have the additional benefit of including sanity checks to ensure that the randuniques produced are at least vaguely fair and also not excessively trivial. Basing them off player files is one of the worst possible ways to generate random uniques.

[njvack]

But if they were random uniques, how would you check the morgues?

I agree that simulated player ghosts would be better than the ones we have now.

[Baldu3]

I used to love leaving happy presents for following players to play with, and I'd be pretty sad if your gifts of entertainment would disappear from my (now rare) games!

[spudwalt]

I like player ghosts. It's neat (and sometimes kinda terrifying) to run into dead versions of your previous characters, though granted most of my experience is with local games, so I haven't seen many ghosts generated by other people on servers. The draconian drain-breath spam is kinda much, but at the very least it gives potions of lignification a reason to exist.

As for the discussion of the actual topic at hand, undead characters not leaving ghosts makes sense from a lore standpoint, but I don't feel any particular attachment to said lore (partially since I rarely play undead characters -- I'm not very good with ghouls and mummies and there's only so many VpEns you can send to their dooms before you want to try something else).

[mps]

idk, the weaker player ghosts don't give much xp and the tougher ones are p dangerous ime. Player ghosts are good online.

[Lasty]

I like random player ghosts specifically because some of them are totally unreasonable, but then I also like fighting uniques even with the relatively low rewards it gives. That said, I probably would be that upset to see player ghosts get replaced by randomly generated ghosts with player names, as long as I didn't know that it had happened. :p

[Zwobot]

XP bags, huh? Player ghosts are pretty much always worth a short look at least - and sometimes a good reason to abandon a half-explored level. Could randghosts fill the same niche? Perhaps - but sometimes I recognize the name, sometimes I even spectated the death - and can give a short mental nod before sending them on their way (or get horribly mutilated with their chaos weapon. Damn SpCP :p)

[dowan]

Some sort of sanity check on player ghosts might be enough. That way you preserve the interesting parts, and lose the bad parts. Make sure the level of the ghost is appropriate with the level they died on.

I'd also strip them of their weapon egos, and make them all go normal speed. Naga ghosts are trivial due to slow speed, and centaur and spriggan ghosts can be horrifying. Everyone knows drac ghosts are really mean due to their draining breath, it'd be nice if that could be toned down or removed.

[grisamentum]

Some sort of sanity check on player ghosts might be enough. That way you preserve the interesting parts, and lose the bad parts. Make sure the level of the ghost is appropriate with the level they died on.

I'd also strip them of their weapon egos, and make them all go normal speed. Naga ghosts are trivial due to slow speed, and centaur and spriggan ghosts can be horrifying. Everyone knows drac ghosts are really mean due to their draining breath, it'd be nice if that could be toned down or removed.

This all sounds very boring.

[bel]

I've never met griefer ghosts on public servers. I think they are ok. I treat them the same as uniques, depending on their capability, escape (mostly) or fight (sometimes).

Regarding the OP, I am fine with undead players leaving ghosts.

[mps]

re: "ghosts suck"

While comborobining the other day, I ran into a crazy TeCj player ghost on Lair:8 with ball lightning and orb of destruction (no idea how this guy died on lair:8). Had to abandon the level (and two lair end vaults) until after both lair branches as a result. When I first saw it, I was fortunate enough to have a big pack of yaks between it and myself which gave me cover to get back to stairs (the ball lightning killed all of them, lulz).

Anyway, that was good crawl. More crazy ghosts, imo.

[Sandman25]

Anyway, that was good crawl. More crazy ghosts, imo.

I am not sure you would feel the same way if that ghost killed your character instead of those yaks. Especially if you didn't have a chance to do anything.

[Rast]

While comborobining the other day, I ran into a crazy TeCj player ghost on Lair:8 with ball lightning and orb of destruction (no idea how this guy died on lair:8).

Presumably he blew himself up with ball lightning or ood.

EDIT:

The blast of lightning engulfs the dire elephant.
The dire elephant is heavily wounded.
The blast of lightning engulfs you! You resist.
The blast of lightning engulfs your ball lightning.
Your ball lightning completely resists.
The blast of lightning engulfs your ball lightning.
Your ball lightning completely resists.
Your ball lightning explodes!
The blast of lightning engulfs the dire elephant.
The dire elephant is heavily wounded.
The blast of lightning engulfs you! You resist.
Your ball lightning explodes!
The blast of lightning engulfs the dire elephant.
The dire elephant is severely wounded.
The blast of lightning engulfs you! You resist.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
The dire elephant tramples you!!
You die...

[chequers]

https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/76

[mps]

While comborobining the other day, I ran into a crazy TeCj player ghost on Lair:8 with ball lightning and orb of destruction (no idea how this guy died on lair:8).

Presumably he blew himself up with ball lightning or ood.

EDIT:

The blast of lightning engulfs the dire elephant.
The dire elephant is heavily wounded.
The blast of lightning engulfs you! You resist.
The blast of lightning engulfs your ball lightning.
Your ball lightning completely resists.
The blast of lightning engulfs your ball lightning.
Your ball lightning completely resists.
Your ball lightning explodes!
The blast of lightning engulfs the dire elephant.
The dire elephant is heavily wounded.
The blast of lightning engulfs you! You resist.
Your ball lightning explodes!
The blast of lightning engulfs the dire elephant.
The dire elephant is severely wounded.
The blast of lightning engulfs you! You resist.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
The dire elephant tramples you!!
You die...

lol, thanks for the morgue reference. Ya, that's the guy. I had a feeling after posting that I had just answered my own question...

[pickled_heretic]

I've never played online, but pretty much the only reason why I would is to try to make really powerful ghosts to grief others.

[byrel]

Well... thanks for not playing online then. I play online and enjoy the ghost interaction. Though I never ran into a griefer...

[bcadren]

The melee ones you can just walk away from, thankfully...though they can still be somewhat nerve-wracking. (ran into a GrBe in a CPA with a Dire Flail on Snake:1 recently) [he died to a shock serpent explosion, I looked it up.] kept me from completing the floor for awhile, because I couldn't hurt him and he could kill me in ~2-3 hits. That game had something like 7 --Be ghosts; multiple in Shoals end.

[savageorange]

The melee ones you can just walk away from, thankfully...though they can still be somewhat nerve-wracking. (ran into a GrBe in a CPA with a Dire Flail on Snake:1 recently) [he died to a shock serpent explosion, I looked it up.] kept me from completing the floor for awhile, because I couldn't hurt him and he could kill me in ~2-3 hits. That game had something like 7 --Be ghosts; multiple in Shoals end.

... Is online different from offline in this way?
As I understood, only one ghost could generate per level; multiple could exist, but only one of those would actually generate in a particular game.

[jejorda2]

If there are multiple ghosts, it is because one of those ghosts killed the other players on that level.

[Sandman25]

I with those who enjoy player ghosts would enter a bailey as Mu of Chei to see adjacent player ghost with Sticky Flame and no exit in LoS, no blink/tele either. Of course player ghosts are "fun" when you are playing OP characters and just tab to get free XP.

[Sar]

I disagree! I died to ghosts (mostly my fault though), and I had experiences where I had to run away/leave floors due to ghosts. For me, it's all part of the game. Dying is a part of the game too. Remember, Crawl isn't supposed to be 100% fair and winnable!

[Sandman25]

I disagree! I died to ghosts (mostly my fault though), and I had experiences where I had to run away/leave floors due to ghosts. For me, it's all part of the game. Dying is a part of the game too. Remember, Crawl isn't supposed to be 100% fair and winnable!

Yes, I know, I just don't find some player ghosts fun. To clarify the point, I don't find Orbs of Fire on D1 fun either: you either have a chance (and a way) to escape or you die.

[Sar]

The situation you described is harsh, but it's also a situation where you play the worst race in the game following the worst god in the game and encounter the worst possible spell combination on a ghost that is located in the worst possible position. I wouldn't compare it to D:1 oof, I would compare it to a frail mage encountering a pack of jackals in the open on D:1 and failing to kill them with the starting MP.

[Sandman25]

The situation you described is harsh, but it's also a situation where you play the worst race in the game following the worst god in the game and encounter the worst possible spell combination on a ghost that is located in the worst possible position. I wouldn't compare it to D:1 oof, I would compare it to a frail mage encountering a pack of jackals in the open on D:1 and failing to kill them with the starting MP.

It depends. Some player ghosts can have Petrify/Shatter/Fire Storm on D4 as far as I know. Worse than OoF IMHO, Bolt of Fire/Fireball can't reach edge of LoS.

[adozu]

what is the likelyhood of that happening? i mean, i'm not a good palyer and i don't play a lot but i've never met a shatter ghost on d4. if a ghost insta-kills you on d4 1 in 1000 games i'd say you got yourself a cool story for your tavern time it's not like it's common enough to be an issue.

it's much more common to autoexplore into an ogre/adder behind a corner and die.

[Sandman25]

But devs removed packs of gnolls from D1. They didn't leave them alone for us to have "cool" stories because it led to unavoidable deaths which were easy to fix.

[Lasty]

It depends. Some player ghosts can have Petrify/Shatter/Fire Storm on D4 as far as I know. Worse than OoF IMHO, Bolt of Fire/Fireball can't reach edge of LoS.

This is a very problematic post. You don't know if what you're asserting is true and you have no evidence that it's possible or has ever happened, but you're still using it to argue for a change that's barely related. D:4 shatter/firestorm/petrify ghosts aren't a problem as far as anyone can tell, but if they were, the fix would be to do something about them specifically rather than to remove all player ghosts; conversely, if player ghosts are a problem, this example fails to illustrate why because it describes a scenario that does not happen and thus does not apply to player ghosts in general.

[Sandman25]

This is a very problematic post. You don't know if what you're asserting is true and you have no evidence that it's possible or has ever happened, but you're still using it to argue for a change that's barely related. D:4 shatter/firestorm/petrify ghosts aren't a problem as far as anyone can tell, but if they were, the fix would be to do something about them specifically rather than to remove all player ghosts; conversely, if player ghosts are a problem, this example fails to illustrate why because it describes a scenario that does not happen and thus does not apply to player ghosts in general.

Sorry, you can treat it as my attempt to learn whether it's possible. I saw player ghosts with Fire Storm/Shatter in zigs and Zot, is it possible to get such player ghost in Dungeon? I don't play online often, one of reasons is that I don't want to learn that such player ghost is possible from the game.

[savageorange]

If there are multiple ghosts, it is because one of those ghosts killed the other players on that level.

Not sure if we're talking about the same thing here, so I'll try to clarify. This is my understanding of the process of tracking and selecting ghosts for a level:

* 1. AFAIK, Crawl is happy to track multiple ghosts for a level.
* 2. When generating a level, however, only one of the ghosts belonging to that level is allowed to generate.
* 3. Whether or not you kill it that game or die to it, that ghost is scrubbed and can never generate again.

It sounds like you are saying that my statement #3 is incorrect, and also probably my statement #2. Is that an accurate summary?

[Lasty]

Sorry, you can treat it as my attempt to learn whether it's possible.

I'm all in favor of learning. I believe there is logic to prevent ridiculously OOD ghosts from placing, but I'm not certain and I'm not sure how it works. I'll update here if I find out.

[jejorda2]

Maybe it's kind of one bones file that generates both ghosts, since it's the fact that the player was killed by a ghost that makes the second (earlier?) ghost appear? So maybe in a way, there is only one bones file processed per level?

But I know I have had exclusions on three ghosts on the same level at some point. I've had two ghosts on the same level this month.

I don't read the code often or well, but I play online quite a bit read most tavern posts and half-way understand and recall them.

[Lasty]

* 2. When generating a level, however, only one of the ghosts belonging to that level is allowed to generate.
* 3. Whether or not you kill it that game or die to it, that ghost is scrubbed and can never generate again.

Ghosts are only scrubbed if you win the game without dying on the same floor as the ghost. If you die at the ghost's hand it is definitely not scrubbed; I'm not sure what happens if anything other than the ghost gets credit for killing you on the same floor. When a ghost is loaded, any other player ghosts that were victims of the ghost can be loaded as well. Outside of the special Halloween patch, the most ghosts I've seen on a single floor is 3.

Hopefully someone who's done more work with ghosts can chime in to give more detailed information. wheals, maybe?

[Jeremiah]

If anything, gargoyles should be unable to leave ghosts because of the whole thing where Yred hates them because they are nonliving and not subject to death or undeath.

[dowan]

Sorry, you can treat it as my attempt to learn whether it's possible.

I'm all in favor of learning. I believe there is logic to prevent ridiculously OOD ghosts from placing, but I'm not certain and I'm not sure how it works. I'll update here if I find out.

I'm quite sure I've seen people tell stories about ghosts with firestorm on d4, because they died on ascension or were just trolling or whatever. I've never seen it personally though. It's possible these stories are all false of course, but we can only go on what we know. I was under the same impression as sandman, and this is the first I've heard of any logic prevent OOD ghosts. In fact, earlier in the thread I suggested such logic should be added. Maybe one of my FRs has been added before I even made it!

Now THAT is a responsive dev team!

[Rast]

The situation you described is harsh, but it's also a situation where you play the worst race in the game following the worst god in the game and encounter the worst possible spell combination on a ghost that is located in the worst possible position. I wouldn't compare it to D:1 oof, I would compare it to a frail mage encountering a pack of jackals in the open on D:1 and failing to kill them with the starting MP.

Don't forget that this (hypothetical?) situation happens in an early portal vault that doesn't have an exit close to the entrance, which is not typically the case, in my experience.

[Sandman25]

Don't forget that this (hypothetical?) situation happens in an early portal vault that doesn't have an exit close to the entrance, which is not typically the case, in my experience.

No, not hypothetical.
http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/CheiMu/morg ... 002121.txt

I did have a single scroll of tele but as Su I didn't feel comfortable to use it in bailey.

[KoboldLord]

This is a very problematic post. You don't know if what you're asserting is true and you have no evidence that it's possible or has ever happened, but you're still using it to argue for a change that's barely related. D:4 shatter/firestorm/petrify ghosts aren't a problem as far as anyone can tell, but if they were, the fix would be to do something about them specifically rather than to remove all player ghosts; conversely, if player ghosts are a problem, this example fails to illustrate why because it describes a scenario that does not happen and thus does not apply to player ghosts in general.

A couple years back there was actually a tournament banner that encouraged people to leave griefer ghosts in the Crawl tournament. In that year, The Royal Jelly banner gave as many points as a winning game for throwing the Orb of Zot into lava, thereby destroying it and making your game unwinnable. So players who got the banner had a live 3-Rune character that couldn't make any more points for them through normal play. They could, however, get a few extra points from a separate scoring mechanism if they suicided the character and their ghost managed to kill some other player character. So really, the only thing to do was to set up their ghost in unavoidable newbie territory, like Lair 1, and hope they got those points while they continued with the tournament.

It was a very bad idea on the part of the tournament organizers.

There are some sanity checks in place to help with the issue, but they're not remotely adequate and probably can't be fixed without functionally gutting the system anyway. Griefers are obviously just going to move their spite-ghosts to the earliest point where they'll be allowed, and centaur ghosts with Fire Storm aren't going to be any more manageable on Lair 1 than they would be on Dungeon 4. Griefer ghosts can even happen by accident, albeit rarely, but that won't be any particular comfort to the player who just lost a character to it.

Ghosts are only scrubbed if you win the game without dying on the same floor as the ghost. If you die at the ghost's hand it is definitely not scrubbed; I'm not sure what happens if anything other than the ghost gets credit for killing you on the same floor. When a ghost is loaded, any other player ghosts that were victims of the ghost can be loaded as well. Outside of the special Halloween patch, the most ghosts I've seen on a single floor is 3.

Hopefully someone who's done more work with ghosts can chime in to give more detailed information. wheals, maybe?

As I understand it, ghosts are scrubbed if they generate in your game and either you don't die or you die on any other level other than the one that contains the ghost. If a ghost generated on D8, and you retreat to D7 and die there, the ghost is gone. If a ghost generated on D8 and you avoid it and win, the ghost is gone. If a ghost is generated on D8 and you quit the game, the ghost is gone. On the other hand, if a ghost is generated on D8 and you die on that D8 to an orc pack without ever actually seeing the ghost, the ghost is saved and can be encountered again by another player.

[duvessa]

It depends. Some player ghosts can have Petrify/Shatter/Fire Storm on D4 as far as I know. Worse than OoF IMHO, Bolt of Fire/Fireball can't reach edge of LoS.

This is a very problematic post. You don't know if what you're asserting is true and you have no evidence that it's possible or has ever happened, but you're still using it to argue for a change that's barely related.

Man I know you hate Sandman25 and all, but come on, there is very clear evidence that it has happened:
http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/toma/morgue-toma-20130512-184300.txt
http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.11/prnstrntrng/morgue-prnstrntrng-20121210-012933.txt

[Sandman25]

http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/toma/morgue-toma-20130512-184300.txt
http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.11/prnstrntrng/morgue-prnstrntrng-20121210-012933.txt

Thank you for the links, now I know it is (or was?) possible.
At least it was not boring:

Killed from afar by StopHavingBoringTun's ghost (93 damage)
... with a great blast of cold
... on Level 3 of the Dungeon.

[Lasty]

It depends. Some player ghosts can have Petrify/Shatter/Fire Storm on D4 as far as I know. Worse than OoF IMHO, Bolt of Fire/Fireball can't reach edge of LoS.

This is a very problematic post. You don't know if what you're asserting is true and you have no evidence that it's possible or has ever happened, but you're still using it to argue for a change that's barely related.

Man I know you hate Sandman25 and all, but come on, there is very clear evidence that it has happened:
http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/toma/morgue-toma-20130512-184300.txt
http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.11/prnstrntrng/morgue-prnstrntrng-20121210-012933.txt

What I was commenting on was that Sandman25 didn't know if it was possible when he made the comments, and that the problem described in his comment did not support the solution he was asking for.

I thought I made it clear that I don't actually know if this is possible either and that I wasn't attempting to claim superior knowledge -- my objection wasn't based on a thorough understanding of the facts, but the type of argument that was presented given the level of knowledge of the subject Sandman25 was representing himself as having. Thanks to your morgues, I now know it was possible in 0.12, but I still don't know how possible it is now. I do know that it's never happened to me, and that the most recent morgue I've seen where it happened was at a time when item weight was still a thing.

I'm in favor of everyone (including me and including Sandman25) getting better info about this, and I thought I made that clear too.

Edit: Also, I don't hate Sandman25. We disagree often, sometimes really violently, but it's not because I think he's a bad person or wish him any harm.

[Sandman25]

Yes, I admit once again that my post was problematic. Glad that it triggered some knowledge sharing though, was worth it

[Rast]

How about this: Player ghosts should only face characters who are within one experience level of them.

So if there's a level 18 ghost on lair:1, it won't spawn when the player first visits, but if he happens to pass through the map later, when he's between XL 17-19, the ghost will materialize and begin wandering the level. If he flees the ghost and returns at XL 20+, it will be gone again.

To compensate for the fact that it makes any particular ghost less likely to show up, any ghosts which have not been killed by the end of the game should be added back to the pool.