Make ring of teleportation stop working when uncursed

[Sandman25]

Make ring of teleportation stop working when uncursed, having unlimited source of teleportation is OP, also it encourages "let's run around pillar from hydra and wait when the teleportation triggers" which often happens in Lair with low Evo when you are likely to waste turns if trying to evoke it. I think Evocations can take the nerf and still be ok.

[dowan]

Well, let's run around a pillar until the hydra loses a step is already a thing, but while unlimited teleportation may be op, it also is what happens to 99% of characters in most games, regardless of the ring. I've never run out of teleportation in a game of crawl (after very early game), so I think the ring's existence is irrelevant until other sources of tele get trimmed down a bit.

For convenience's sake, it'd be nice if the ring stopped randomly teleporting you when uncursed, so it didn't actually require swapping to be a useful evokable. But I'm moving in the wrong direction by making it more useful...

[Sandman25]

Energy randomization is not an equivalent here, new monsters are generated near stairs so it is much more dangerous. Also you will need a pretty small pillar near the stairs, otherwise it takes too much time to have that gap right when you are on stairs.

I died while trying to save my last tele scroll (or 2, I don't remember now) in Pan and am running out of tele pretty often during middle game (probably because I play hard combos and am a safe player).
Games where I get ring of teleportation become much easier because then I have unlimited tele.

[archaeo]

Honestly, by the reasoning put forward by MPA when removing cTele, it's hard to see why =tele should remain. If cTele made teleportation too reliable, =tele almost has to make it too common.

You could, in theory, just remove the evocable ability, or at least the active one; you could always make it so that higher evocations makes one teleport more quickly when wearing a ring. But even that has its problems, and I suspect it should just be removed instead.

I'd regret this, since I like having access to lots of teleportation, but if we're going from current game design, it doesn't seem to have a place.

[Blobbo]

I'd regret this, since I like having access to lots of teleportation

Should increase the gen rate of ?tele slightly to compensate.

[duvessa]

Ring of teleportation is just an awful item, it's optimal to carry it around on pretty much everyone because even without the evocable blink there are places where you want to teleport as often as possible (abyss). If you want to continue annoying people early game with it then you need to make it destroy itself when uncursed or only teleport you when you visit a new level for the first time or something. Otherwise it needs to be removed, it is nonsense to keep the current version of it around when teleportation is a consumable.

[Blobbo]

I think the simplest thing is to remove it, otherwise you'd do weird strategies like pre-ID all your rings to find that cursed ring of tele, so that you can slip it on your finger when you enter the Abyss.

[Sandman25]

Note that I am not suggesting to remove it. Unknown cursed ring of tele is fun early game, after you have IDed it you can still use every cursed ring of teleportation you find but it becomes limited resource which you can use just once and it requires spending a scroll of remove curse i.e. you equip known cursed ring of tele, teleport until you are in safety, uncurse it and remove it. Some characters even might want to wear it for quite some time in some areas (early Ash, Abyss, hell branches)

[archaeo]

Except cursed =tele never actually matters in the early game, since it's pretty silly to equip anything unknown, especially rings, without remove curse scrolls. And then, if it always curses, it's just a scroll tax, which means that remove curse scrolls are just slow teleport scrolls. I'm not sure that your corner cases really justify keeping it in at all, if it's not going to be an evocable item.

If you wanted "non-swappable, on-demand teleportitis," rings seem like a bad place to put the mechanic. It might be more sensible on a boot slot, if that mechanic were really desirable, and I don't really know that it is.

[Sandman25]

Yes, known cursed rings of teleportation are slow scrolls of teleportation which take inventory slot and ring slot. Don't expect them to be better than corresponding scroll or wand, that's the goal of suggested nerf.

PS. I still equip unknown rings often, silly or not. Being unable to evoke teleportation will change that of course.

[rockygargoyle]

Ring of teleportation is just an awful item, it's optimal to carry it around on pretty much everyone because even without the evocable blink there are places where you want to teleport as often as possible (abyss). If you want to continue annoying people early game with it then you need to make it destroy itself when uncursed or only teleport you when you visit a new level for the first time or something. Otherwise it needs to be removed, it is nonsense to keep the current version of it around when teleportation is a consumable.

It's not *that* useful anymore since it teleports you towards monsters, and it also no longer works in abyss/labyrinths IIRC.

[Quazifuji]

I'd regret this, since I like having access to lots of teleportation

Should increase the gen rate of ?tele slightly to compensate.

The gen rate of ?tele is already very high. Ever since item destruction was removed, I pretty frequently finish games with 10-20 ?tele in my inventory.

[bel]

I do not see why cTele removal and ring of tele are connected in any way. The rationale for cTele removal was that it made teleportation (which is supposed to be random) risk-free. I do not see why ring of tele figures at all in this discussion. Btw, ring of teleport now teleports you in LoS of a monster if you didn't evoke it.

I do not support removal of ring of tele. It is nice but hardly OP. If people find lots of ?tele anyway, why remove an option for the edge cases where they are not available? Also, while this is not directly relevant, it is very useful in speedrunning where consumables are scarce.

[Sandman25]

Btw, ring of teleport now teleports you in LoS of a monster if you didn't evoke it.

I do not support removal of ring of tele. It is nice but hardly OP.

Really? Unlimited way to get out of danger is not OP?

Also, while this is not directly relevant, it is very useful in speedrunning where consumables are scarce.

I see, you want to play with scarce resources except you want to have unlimited resources. It's like "look how great I am, I am speedrunning with +9 vampiric exec axe in +10 PDA as DD of Makhleb".

[bel]

Btw, ring of teleport now teleports you in LoS of a monster if you didn't evoke it.

I do not support removal of ring of tele. It is nice but hardly OP.

Really? Unlimited way to get out of danger is not OP?

The first sentence (necessity of evoking) was in response to your example of pillar dancing while wearing =tele in sight of a monster. In this case, I am assuming that you did not evoke it, but were just waiting for teleportitis to kick in.

And no, evocable random teleport is not a "get out of danger" card. That is the whole point. And if you are talking about speedrunning, random teleport on a half-cleared floor can be deadly.

[Sandman25]

The first sentence (necessity of evoking) was in response to your example of pillar dancing while wearing =tele in sight of a monster. In this case, I am assuming that you did not evoke it, but were just waiting for teleportitis to kick in.

But you are suggesting to keep evocable ring of tele, right? In this case players still can train Evo (which they often do anyway) and get unlimited way to escape danger.

And no, evocable random teleport is not a "get out of danger" card. That is the whole point.

It is (I am expert in using ring of tele for escaping dangerous situations, I often use it at 100% HP).

And if you are talking about speedrunning, random teleport on a half-cleared floor can be deadly.

Then I don't understand why you are objecting to removing evocable tele
It's well known that speedrunning does not affect crawl design and I will be glad if speedrunning becomes less luck-based and more similar to normal crawl (have I found ring of tele? yes? damn, now I need to use it instead of plain walking), removal of cTele was a step in right direction for speedruns IMHO.

[bel]

You are missing my point. I was replying to archaeo's comment about cTele removal and connecting it to ring of tele. I am saying that the one has nothing to do with the other because the rationale given there was that controlled teleport removed the risk from (random) teleport. The "btw...." comment was just that, an aside.

I stand by my statement that random teleport is nice but not OP. Since you just state the reverse, it is hard to argue with an opinion.

[Sandman25]

I stand by my statement that random teleport is nice but not OP. Since you just state the reverse, it is hard to argue with an opinion.

Do you know many unlimited resources in crawl?

[mps]

I stand by my statement that random teleport is nice but not OP. Since you just state the reverse, it is hard to argue with an opinion.

Do you know many unlimited resources in crawl?

Food?

[bel]

I stand by my statement that random teleport is nice but not OP. Since you just state the reverse, it is hard to argue with an opinion.

Do you know many unlimited resources in crawl?

Spells. Also ring of invis, rods, elemental evocables.

[Sandman25]

Spells. Also ring of invis, rods, elemental evocables.

I am not sure you are serious here. It's impossible to cast spells/use rods/elemental evocables non-stop which is easy with ring of teleportation unless you have tiny max MP and cannot regenerate those 2MP while waiting for teleport to happen. Ring of invis is OP too but at least it does not allow you to avoid all dangerous siituations and you cannot spam it due to contam.

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How many scrolls of recharging would I need for wand of teleportation? It even works under silence effect.

[pickled_heretic]

Really? Unlimited way to get out of danger is not OP?

Walking should be removed.

[Sprucery]

you cannot spam it due to contam

Add contam to tele ring? Or other negative effect (slow, confusion, paralysis...). Or make evokable tele work only if you stand still and do nothing for a few turns ("translocative energies are gathering around you").

[Sandman25]

Really? Unlimited way to get out of danger is not OP?

Walking should be removed.

Yes, I tried. See my thread about OP luring and kiting.

Edit. Also you can see devs remove slow monsters often.

[Pollen_Golem]

Maybe remove rings of teleportation, put in rings of speedy teleportation, which passively decrease the delay before tele kicks in when you read- or zap-tele.

It's impossible to cast spells/use rods/elemental evocables non-stop which is easy with ring of teleportation

So... rod of teleportation? The teleportation delay you get after evoking it scales inversely with evo skill, ok?

[Chicken]

I don't see what's bad about the ring being used as it is. It's a way to conserve scrolls/wands, but it takes time to swap, and there are so many ways that it can end up bringing you into really nasty situations that it's more of a rat-trap than anything (and you're the rat).

[ion_frigate]

Evoked, the ring is no more dangerous than any other random teleport source. I'm pretty sure no one (voluntarily) wears it constantly - you put it on when you need it, then immediately take it off. The chance of a random in-view-of-monsters teleport in that time is pretty small - and even if it does fire while you're waiting for the random teleport, unless I'm mistaken, the random teleport will still kick in. Even if I'm wrong on that you can just evoke the ring again.

The ring is problematic: it's an infinite source of teleports, with an extra 5aut to use and a clunky interface. It requires some Evo training but that's usually helpful for most characters anyway.

One idea might be to make the ring autocursing. Since you'd always want to uncurse it, this puts a strategic limit on the number of teleports you can get from the ring. In a sense this would let you use a scroll of remove curse as a scroll of teleportation.

[archaeo]

One idea might be to make the ring autocursing. Since you'd always want to uncurse it, this puts a strategic limit on the number of teleports you can get from the ring. In a sense this would let you use a scroll of remove curse as a scroll of teleportation.

This "slow teleport scroll" solution is just like letting breadswinging remain in the game: it would basically just punish players who are trying to go fast. It's saying, "well, we're going to allow infinite teleportation, we just want to make it obnoxious." It also creates an inelegant special case for =tele, since it'd be the only vanilla item in the game with {curse}.

I'm all for leaving =tele in the game, but hobbling it with autocurse or contam or some other player-punishing mechanic isn't a good solution if people feel =tele's problematic. Just pull off the bandaid all at once and remove it, if the only other option is "complicated special-cased penalty."

[Chicken]

I think that *in addition* to the ring of teleportation, you should add a second ring, called the "ring of distortion". (You might cut the frequency of the one to make room for the other, or not ... your call) Instead of teleporting you, that one randomly blinks you from time to time. (You should be able to control it with the control spell) And it gives your unarmed combat attacks (with hands/claws, probably not headbutts or tail-slaps I think) the modifiers of an attack with a weapon of distortion. It doesn't typically come cursed.......... it just has all the lovely features of unwielding a weapon of distortion when removed. Adding this effect to random artifacts would certainly make trying them out more entertaining.

[Berder]

Except cursed =tele never actually matters in the early game, since it's pretty silly to equip anything unknown, especially rings, without remove curse scrolls.

You only really have to be careful about cursed weapons. Cursed rings and armor are not nearly so game ending, and rings are usually good anyway. I always wear-ID my rings. The worst that could happen is a ring of tele, which is not awful, considering it gives you unlimited teles and you'll probably be able to uncurse it soon if not now. The second-worst is a negative stat or attribute ring, which is just a minor inconvenience.