Salamander stormcallers

[Lasty]

Salamander Stormcallers have been in trunk for a little while, and I think it's about time to ask the question: are they a good monster? Do they create fun situations? Do they need tweaking in stats or placement? Should they be removed entirely?

Please post your feedback.

[mps]

They do more damage to other monsters than to the player ime, so they create funny situations. Most recent game, I had to switch from an rc ring to an rf ring because of one, so keeps you on your toes...

[Sandman25]

I like the monster, even as a caster of Vehumet who can attack monsters at the edge of LoS it is wise to lure it around corner. Also it changes tactics regarding packs, you basically want to be somewhat surrounded by monsters (I got impression that fire storm is unlikely to be called when it affects several friendly units).
I remember I had to retreat from a good tactical position because I didn't want to get firestormed.

[duvessa]

I can't think of any practical circumstance where a stormcaller or entropy weaver would be anything other than free xp. They need to at least lose the delay if they are going to exist.

[Sandman25]

I can't think of any practical circumstance where a stormcaller or entropy weaver would be anything other than free xp. They need to at least lose the delay if they are going to exist.

I guess you have never had -12 slaying when trying to enter Spider.

[Lasty]

I can't think of any practical circumstance where a stormcaller or entropy weaver would be anything other than free xp. They need to at least lose the delay if they are going to exist.

As in immediate firestorm/word of entropy?

[dowan]

I can't think of any practical circumstance where a stormcaller or entropy weaver would be anything other than free xp. They need to at least lose the delay if they are going to exist.

In my experience, entropy weavers are not just free xp. If nothing else, they make you give up good tactical positions, but sometimes you can't get out of LOS fast enough when they start casting.

I didn't realize stormcallers had a delay. Their damage seems quite low, but they were kind of scary to a mummy.

edit: Sibling rivalry removed

[nago]

I find weaver extremely annoying /dangerous (choose you whatever) as you have to separate and kill it asap because it is very bad to both fight something or stay in an unclearead area with - 12 corrosion.
Storm caller seems more a push over to me, even without rf they don't do significant damage most of time - and I more often than it should enjoy to have them in Los with other monsters hoping they roast everything saving some of my burden.

[mps]

I'm not sure what the point of the delay on these monsters is. Even with pretty heavy melee characters, you can't reliably kill them before they trigger whatever effect. I suppose it keeps them from spamming it.

[bel]

I would hate it if I go in LoS of an entropy weaver and immediately, irresistably get heavily corroded.

I find them decent threats, since it is often hard to get at them through their pack of followers. If you retreat, the spiders, which are faster than you, damage you. If you don't, you get hit with corrosion.

Don't really have much experience with stormcallers, since I haven't done Vaults too much lately.

[Sar]

I think the idea behind them was "hey, that delayed cast thing convokers do is pretty neat, we should make more monsters that use it for various powerful effects".

[jejorda2]

Entropy weavers matter enough to change my tactics.

Storm callers' damage is low enough that I tab 'em when I get around to it.

Maybe I just had a stronger character when I encountered the stormcallers.

[duvessa]

I can't think of any practical circumstance where a stormcaller or entropy weaver would be anything other than free xp. They need to at least lose the delay if they are going to exist.

As in immediate firestorm/word of entropy?

Yes, I think that's the only way they have a chance of not being totally harmless. Even then I'm pretty sure you'd need to make entropy weavers fast and increase stormcaller HD or move them earlier.

[Arrhythmia]

they (and entropy weavers) need a god damn "LOL HI I'M CHANNELING MY DEATH BLAST" tile already ffs

[dowan]

I can't think of any practical circumstance where a stormcaller or entropy weaver would be anything other than free xp. They need to at least lose the delay if they are going to exist.

As in immediate firestorm/word of entropy?

Yes, I think that's the only way they have a chance of not being totally harmless. Even then I'm pretty sure you'd need to make entropy weavers fast and increase stormcaller HD or move them earlier.

12 corrosion is not harmless. If you always just run away when one comes into LOS, it's already not at all harmless. If you don't always just run away, what do you do? This sounds like theory crawl, not real crawl. In my experience with these guys, they turn safe situations dangerous, and dangerous situations become really bad.

Stormcallers seem to do very low damage, and kill their allies, so it's fair to call them harmless, although I don't think instant casting without some sort of breath timer or something would be very fun.

[tasonir]

They are both good designs, and interesting monsters. Weavers are probably more deadly of the two - stormcallers tend to not do too much damage alone and it's hard for them to firestorm you when you're fighting other monsters as they'll kill the other monsters as well.

So keep both, possibly buff stormcallers somewhat. Somewhat higher physical stats (melee, hp) and firestorm damage?

[le_nerd]

Main thing I found annoying is the noise their firestorm makes. Esp in V:5 super annyoing, but on stealthy chars in general a pain in the ass. Not as much as entropy weavers, though. They are the most annoying monster in the game atm.

[Zwobot]

Stormcallers are pretty great - though the godawful noise frequently destroys any chance on stealth game in vaults which I consider a downside. The delay is what makes them interesting by the way. So it's not Yet Another Smiter.

Oh and if you play a necromancer (DChan/AD) you'll have the fun experience of getting your army smashed from out of YOUR los.

... they could get their damage upped a little though.

[njvack]

If keeping the delay is good but "walk away and they can't do anything" is a concern, letting them blink might help.

[jejorda2]

Or the spell could give you a status instantly that produces a storm at your location later if the stormcaller is still alive.

[dowan]

If keeping the delay is good but "walk away and they can't do anything" is a concern, letting them blink might help.

If you walk away, they already did something. Forcing player movement is a very powerful monster effect in a game where the best tactic is to plant yourself in advantageous terrain.

[XuaXua]

............................

[jejorda2]

............................

I think you may be right.

If you're playing linesprint, moving away doesn't always change the situation very much.

[KoboldLord]

The trouble with stormcallers is that they mostly live in Snake, where instead of hunkering down in a choke point it's usually better to casually walk away from the slow naga that are ineffectually chasing you. Stepping away is the same way you deal with most other monsters in the branch, so having one more monster that you step away from doesn't really change things up much. You just kill the stormcallers after all of the faster things are dead.

Entropy weavers are another matter, because nearly everything in Spider is faster than you, so running out of range of the weaver is going to result in some free hits from the spiders, which means the weaver is still having a tactical effect even though you must absolutely never attempt to melee anything ever if there's still a weaver anywhere on the screen.

Maybe monster nagas just need to be faster. Player nagas can be a different sub-species, since being slow is basically the entire niche of the species. Or if it's important to have an entire branch full of slow monsters even when slow monsters have for good reason been slowly expunged from the rest of the game, maybe the stormcallers should just cast their spell instantly since they still wouldn't really be all that dangerous.

[Sar]

Stormcallers appear in Snake? I thought they were V/U monster.

[Lasty]

Sar is correct; salamander stormcallers do not spawn in Snake. Also, unlike other salamanders (except for salamander firebrands), they are speed 10. Firebrands for some reason move faster than the player.

[XuaXua]

Salamanders Stormcallers scandalously supposed to spawn in Snake regardless are significantly slower in speed contrasting salamanders spawning in Snake; so says Sar.

[duvessa]

The trouble with stormcallers is that they mostly live in Snake, where instead of hunkering down in a choke point it's usually better to casually walk away from the slow naga that are ineffectually chasing you. Stepping away is the same way you deal with most other monsters in the branch, so having one more monster that you step away from doesn't really change things up much. You just kill the stormcallers after all of the faster things are dead.

Entropy weavers are another matter, because nearly everything in Spider is faster than you, so running out of range of the weaver is going to result in some free hits from the spiders, which means the weaver is still having a tactical effect even though you must absolutely never attempt to melee anything ever if there's still a weaver anywhere on the screen.

Man and people say that I don't play crawl

[KoboldLord]

All right, maybe they should start showing up in Snake, then. I don't specifically remember ever being challenged by one, so I assumed they showed up at the same time as the weavers. Apologies for assuming something without bothering to verify it first. What's the justification for not putting the new snake in Snake?

[Lasty]

Snake already had a fine level of threat diversity, I thought. I was looking for something that would be more a part of what I think of as the "core" monster set -- dungeon, depths, and vaults.

[dpeg]

Lasty: In my recent experience (a string of Formicids of Gozag... finally won one), entropy weavers were always remarkable (made me stop at what I was doing, reassess and sometimes retreat. They're certainly alright as a threat, for now.

Stormcallers were sometimes, but not always noticeable. In a game without rF (bad play by me, was not necessary, died to orb of zot in the end), Stormcallers were something to work around.

Regarding Stormcallers and Snake: perhaps we can make (end) vaults around them?

[mps]

Stormcallers would work better as a Gehenna monster, imo. As long as they're in a setting with monsters that don't resist fire, their attack doesn't really work. If the damage is high enough to be a threat, it'll kill other monsters.

[duvessa]

45% of fire storm's damage is irresistible

[njvack]

Monster Fire Storm could not directly damage other monsters and not put flame clouds on their squares. Or maybe it could give short-duration Ring of Flames to monsters in the radius.

My only thought on Entropy Weavers (having just cleared Spider) is that it's easy to miss the message when they start their spell. They work well in Spider because other stuff is faster than you and the layout makes it easy for them to spawn such that it's hard to break LoS within three turns with movement alone.

[Pollen_Golem]

My only thought on Entropy Weavers (having just cleared Spider) is that it's easy to miss the message when they start their spell.

they (and entropy weavers) need a god damn "LOL HI I'M CHANNELING MY DEATH BLAST" tile already ffs

[njvack]

Well, I play console so a death blast tile won't help me much A note in the right-hand monster text, or a highlight color on the monster glyph, might be good. It'd be nice for convokers as well.

Just fought some stormcallers last night and I'll echo the "they kill my enemies more than they hurt me" sentiment.

[starhawk]

I ran into one on D:12 in my last game and had no idea what was going on until I was in the middle of that hellish cloud... managed to escape but basically had to treat it as a mid-game boss and go do branches to power up so I could fight it.

(The level was a fairly open construction, so I couldn't get to him and chop him up with my boring melee guy without getting firestormed.)

[Sar]

take notes, Lasty: stormcallers make for a good mid-Dungeon enemy!

[duvessa]

their fire storm does less than 40 damage on average (72 max), has very low variance by crawl standards, and takes forever to happen
stop being afraid of them

[Sandman25]

their fire storm does less than 40 damage on average (72 max), has very low variance by crawl standards, and takes forever to happen
stop being afraid of them

Yes, I was afraid of them but I don't remember being hit hard indeed. I just assumed that I was lucky since we don't see damage range in monster description. Weird, devs want us to be afraid of weak monsters and die to strong monsters by hiding damage

[tasonir]

their fire storm does less than 40 damage on average (72 max), has very low variance by crawl standards, and takes forever to happen
stop being afraid of them

Agreed, but this is why I suggested buffing their firestorm damage and hp - the design is fine, it just needs more damage. I'd start by raising both by 25% or so, although it's possible that they would be fine going as much as 50% higher.

[Bart]

their fire storm does less than 40 damage on average (72 max), has very low variance by crawl standards, and takes forever to happen
stop being afraid of them

Agreed, but this is why I suggested buffing their firestorm damage and hp - the design is fine, it just needs more damage. I'd start by raising both by 25% or so, although it's possible that they would be fine going as much as 50% higher.

Not everything is a troll or statue (or both). Did you think of poor spriggans, deep elves and felids, too? It's not that getting hit is optional... Even fire giant's fireball hits for "barely" 3d26 - assuming that he has LoS and player does not have fire resistance.

[Sivar]

It might not be a good thing for stormcallers in particular, but I think the idea of an enemy that encourages* you to position yourself such that other enemies get hit by collateral damage is interesting. Having a pet orb spider follow you around and help you kill emperor scorpions is fun.

* assuming you're not playing ~optimally~ and kiting everything to a hallway or whatever

edit: This is a response to the idea that stormcallers would not damage/place clouds on spaces occupied by other enemies.

[duvessa]

It might not be a good thing for stormcallers in particular, but I think the idea of an enemy that encourages* you to position yourself such that other enemies get hit by collateral damage is interesting. Having a pet orb spider follow you around and help you kill emperor scorpions is fun.

if this is intended design it probably shouldn't take away your XP and encourage you to killsteal for piety

[Sivar]

It might not be a good thing for stormcallers in particular, but I think the idea of an enemy that encourages* you to position yourself such that other enemies get hit by collateral damage is interesting. Having a pet orb spider follow you around and help you kill emperor scorpions is fun.

if this is intended design it probably shouldn't take away your XP and encourage you to killsteal for piety

Well, I did acknowledge that it wasn't optimal... but I had forgotten that doing that will lose you EXP.

[Rast]

IMO any time you can get a monster to kill another monster, you should get at least 50% xp, same as if your summon had gotten the kill.

[Lasty]

I'm pretty sure you get XP equal to the proportion of the damage dealt to the monster you did. I'd like it if piety worked the same way, but that might be killstealable.

[tasonir]

Not everything is a troll or statue (or both). Did you think of poor spriggans, deep elves and felids, too? It's not that getting hit is optional... Even fire giant's fireball hits for "barely" 3d26 - assuming that he has LoS and player does not have fire resistance.

I've lost a poor spriggan to an early fire dragon's breath, so it's certainly an issue for them. But that breath is 3d24, for 72 max. Duv said firestorm was also 72 max. Firestorm is channeled for several turns, so it should do slightly more damage. Especially on a spriggan, it should be very trivial to walk back 5 tiles in 3 turns and be out of LOS of firestorm. And if you did have fire resistance, it's probably not going to be nearly as bad; granted that you can't resist half the damage, but even taking off ~25% is good protection.

Imho, being hit 2-3 times in as many turns by a fire dragon breath is more deadly than firestorm, and if firestorm was buffed somewhat, they'd just be about equal. Firestorm gives you more opportunity for counterplay (probably walking away in this case), whereas fire dragon breath is mostly "do you have fire resistance or are you running away".

It seems like most people consider stormcallers a bit on the weak side, although they are of course most threatening to low hp races like spriggans, if they actually hit you with a storm.

[Hurkyl]

I'm pretty sure you get XP equal to the proportion of the damage dealt to the monster you did. I'd like it if piety worked the same way, but that might be killstealable.

Last time I asked about that, I was told reality didn't resemble that at all. But then, I wasn't told what reality was, so....

[Jeremiah]

Since this thread has become about entropy weavers as well as stormcallers, I'll just say this:

If they are to appear in Spider the should be webimmune, otherwise they get caught in webs.