Random god altar

[chequers]

I think there was discussion about this before, but couldn't find it. I've created a patch for a random god altar ("ecumenical altar"), which gives you a random god plus a little piety. It's not my original idea, the patch was created by "bugzilla" based on past tavern discussion. I liked it, so cleaned up the code and created a PR.

This altar is obviously bad for 99% of starts so it's mostly intended to be an occasionally appearing challenge option for experienced players.

To pre-empt any objection this would make it easy to scum for Jiyva, I'll say a low altar generation chance (say 10%) times the number of potential gods equals a surprisingly large number of games someone would have to fully explore D:2/D:3 in.

Anyway, other opinions?

https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/59

[Sprucery]

The idea is very interesting and if this was part of the official package, I would definitely consider taking this random god on some characters for fun.

I guess the worst option is getting Sif if you don't have any books. Just training Spellcasting for piety until you get a book gift does not sound good...

[chequers]

Good point. It wouldn't be impossible to drop a spellbook if you get sif.

[Arrhythmia]

I guess the worst option is getting Sif if you don't have any books. Just training Spellcasting for piety until you get a book gift does not sound good...

You can't worship Sif if you don't have a memorized spell. Presumably the altar just wouldn't pick Sif if you don't have a spell.

[chequers]

Unavoidable compatibility conditions are checked (no TSO for Ds, but Sif & Gozag style checks are skipped. Can't think of any others.

[Tenaya]

It would take a lot of additional piety to convince me that this was a worthwhile gambit. Trog for a caster? Sif for a MiFi? I can see it being useful for altar-diving, though.

[dowan]

An altar on D1 is effectively a giant piety boost, since by the time you get to the temple, you'll have all the piety from the floors between that altar and the one with the temple.
Trog on a caster would suck pretty bad though. Sif on a mifi at least is no worse than being godless.

[Sandman25]

FR: Trog should not accept characters who learned spells (= have them in memory currently, it's ok if they amnesia them first).

[Tenaya]

An altar on D1 is effectively a giant piety boost, since by the time you get to the temple, you'll have all the piety from the floors between that altar and the one with the temple.
Trog on a caster would suck pretty bad though. Sif on a mifi at least is no worse than being godless.

Right, so I would rather just dive to the temple and take the god that I really wanted, rather than accept an inferior god. A bad-god is worse than godless because godless proffers no wrath when an appropriate god is chosen.

How would the exceptions be made explicit? Would the altar description have a bullet list of them? example: "none of TSO, Ely etc. will accept you; Trog would never accept your worship; your current form prevents Yred from accepting you." That would be for a Ds in statue form who knew a spell.

[dowan]

Sure, it's still a gamble. If you intend on temple diving, the payoff is not having to dive, rather than increased piety, but that's still a big payoff, since diving for the temple has a fair chance of killing you.

I suppose it's a fair statement to say it would probably not ever be optimal to use this random altar.

[Sandman25]

If you are diving for Temple, you don't care much about the character so you can just use the random altar and quit if you were unlucky with god.

[Quazifuji]

It would take a lot of additional piety to convince me that this was a worthwhile gambit. Trog for a caster? Sif for a MiFi? I can see it being useful for altar-diving, though.

Seems like the point is more for fun than to be a worthwhile gambit. Characters where taking the random altar maximizes the chance for survival might be rare, that doesn't mean players who use the random altar for fun if they encounter and early one will be.

[chequers]

As an update for Sif, I've revived an old patch to remove Sif's joining requirement which seems to have some dev support. I might create another patch for Sif to gift a low level book to new followers, but that seems like a less-liked idea.

[mps]

Interesting idea, but book gifts at lower piety would be pretty keen too, if not moreso. Low level book for random altar joiners only, you mean?

[chequers]

More like "anyone who joins sif gets magic dart"

[ololoev]

Choosing one god from a whole pantheon seems a lot of gamble to me, and in most cases it would incourage startscumming.
A person that wants to win won't pray at this altar unless he is going to win a random god challenge.
If we have an altar to a random god form a specific set, it would be much more clear to the player if he should try praying on it. There can be:
1. A mighty warrior altar.
Makh, Oka, TSO, Trog
2. Sparkling altar.
Ash, Kiku, Sif, Veh
3. Altar, engulfed in a mysterious fog.
Ash, Dith, Luci, Nemelex
4. Altar of peace and nature.
Chei, Ely, Fedo, Jyiva, Zin
5. Altar of an immence power.
Chei, Qaz, Ru
...and so on.

[jejorda2]

If we have an altar to a random god form a specific set, it would be much more clear to the player if he should try praying on it.

For themed altars, I don't think the starting piety needs to be provided. The early benefits of a play style aligined god are enough.

[Sar]

I don't see how this altar would encourage startscumming any more than the chance of getting altars on D:1 (which is already a thing).

[chequers]

I don't think subsets of gods are a good idea. You might as well just decide the subset yourself and pick the first you see. Maybe if the subsets were randomly generated, but then you still have the case where a TrMo might get to choose between Sif, Veh and Gozag.

Yes, some combos are instaquit, like Sif on any Mi. But I imagine people using this altar not as MiFis but as more balanced chars.

Anyway, it's in the game, give it a whirl and then come back

[dowan]

I don't see how this altar would encourage startscumming any more than the chance of getting altars on D:1 (which is already a thing).

It's funny how much talk there is of startscumming when wanderers exist. You could startscum your way to the exact starting package you want, if you had infinite patience.

[njvack]

Trog on a caster would suck pretty bad though.

I think that early trog + piety would be at least comparable with most book starts, except maybe if you're undead and can't zerk.

[dowan]

Well, it would be rough without a weapon, but I suppose you're right that berserk gets you out of most D1 problems pretty easily.

[Rast]

Yes, some combos are instaquit, like Sif on any Mi.

Sif wrath doesn't seem too bad.

[duvessa]

What is this feature intended to add to the game? Can you think of any circumstance where using this altar would increase the chance of a character winning the game? I can't, unless you block gods like chei.

[Rast]

Well Chei altars don't increase the chance of the player winning the game either, yet there they are.

[Sandman25]

I think you can treat it as encouragement to play with unusual god. I had some games where on turn 1 I decided that I will worship first god which I find. It's nice that player will get extra piety when doing this with random god altar.

[Sar]

I think they should be made more rare after initial testing. This seems like a cool feature that would be less cool if it appeared too often.

[njvack]

For what it's worth, I will probably always choose this altar if I see it unless I'm streaking (and be honest, I will never streak) or trying a very specific build. Not because it's good for winning, but because I think it's an amusing kind of random.

[Moanerette]

I just prayed at the random altar with a DsMo, got the response "No God will accept you", and the altar has vanished.

Is this deliberate? This is far more cruel than had it been a mimic.

The feature itself is huge fun, please keep it in. But remove the crushing sense of minor disappointment referred to above.

[Rast]

Are you sure you weren't a Dg?

[Moanerette]

Nope, Ds.

[tasonir]

Based on no personal experience with this patch, I'd assume it rolled TSO/Ely/Zin, you couldn't worship them, and then it failed to roll a new god for you instead, and vanished. Probably a bug, report it on mantis, I imagine it'll be fixed easily enough.

[chequers]

There's currently a bug where you can roll "no god" as a valid god. This will get fixed soon.

There's another outstanding issue, I'm wondering what people think.
1. Monk gives piety on religion join. For Gozag the fee is waived and for Ru you get an immediate sacrifice.
2. The Ecumenical Altar gives slightly more piety on join than a typical altar (20 vs 15), for Gozag the fee is waived and for Ru you get an immediate sacrifice.

There's inconsistency here where Monks using the altar will get no additional benefit for 2/23 gods.

I think this is a problem, and simple fix would be to give 20 piety for Ru (like other gods) and an additional free potion petition for Gozag (new mechanic). What do other people think?

[dpeg]

chequers: this solution seems fine.

I like this new feature, even though I cannot come up with any situation where using the altar would be "optimal play". But it's fun! (Also good it's tracked now.)
Because of this, we should not get into too much effort for special cases. The two fixes you mention seem alright.

[all before]

I played a few games today and had this altar generate every time. I think this is too much-- it seems better as an occasional surprise. This will probably be the first altar many new players see, and lacking better experience and knowledge they will probably take it.

[chequers]

Yes, the spawn rate will be reduced after more testing use.

[Sandman25]

I have just got Zin from random altar as OgTm. The whole book of changes is red. Is It a bug or is it possible to join Trog with book backgrounds also?

[Sar]

It's possible to join Zin on a Tm or to join Trog on a book background. Why would that be a bug? The altar isn't named "unknown beneficial altar".

I mean, you can get Chei, for crying out loud!

[Sandman25]

I wouldn't mind getting Chei as my initial idea was to worship Ru and sacrifice both Armour and Dodging again.
Fortunately the character died soon (I had only 2 potions of lignification as escape tool and Zin killed me by blocking their effect).

Edit. Stick to snakes was still allowed by Zin so it wasn't as bad as it might be with Trog

[chequers]

It's not a bug. You can get any god that would accept you (p)raying at their altar. Yes, a lot of combos are dumb, I would not suggest using this altar as a Fi/Wz unless you are happy to potentially restart the game.

Your best chance of success is with a flexible char with flat apts and stats. Hu/Op and so on. Monk increases the power boost from the altar which gives you some breathing room to potentially rework your playstyle, but other generic starts are good too like Ar or Am.

[dowan]

I wouldn't mind getting Chei as my initial idea was to worship Ru and sacrifice both Armour and Dodging again.
Fortunately the character died soon (I had only 2 potions of lignification as escape tool and Zin killed me by blocking their effect).

Edit. Stick to snakes was still allowed by Zin so it wasn't as bad as it might be with Trog

Well, you can always abandon Zin without wrath.

This new altar has really given me a chance to experience very watered down versions of various god wraths, which is cool. I survived veh, sif, gozag, but not Yred. I got ely on my necromancer, which required immediate abandonment, but that's ok. I did get a couple of free heals out of it at least.

[Sandman25]

Is wrath special-cased? I abandoned Gozag immediately and got only about 10 hasted/berserked/mighted monsters before Gozag was mollified.

  Code:

   846 | D:2      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 31/31 MP: 2/4
  1213 | D:2      | Found a faded altar to an unknown god.
  1279 | D:2      | Became a worshipper of Gozag Ym Sagoz the Greedy
  1280 | D:2      | Fell from the grace of Gozag
  1504 | D:2      | You fall through a shaft!
  2012 | D:3      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 23/39 MP: 1/6
  2397 | D:3      | Was forgiven by Gozag
  2397 | D:3      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 43/45 MP: 2/8

[chequers]

Wrath doesn't change whether or not you used a faded altar.

[wheals]

Gozag wrath always lasts 2 XL, which is not much time when you're XL3.

[mps]

Sorry to necro the thread, but just wanted to comment on the greatness of these altars. It's particularly cool that you can get non-temple gods. On comborobin, I got D:2 ** Lugonu on an HOFi, which is a considerably better start even than HOAK, plus the conveniently located altar made for easy, pre-lair distortion branded battleaxe. They're a really cool feature, but I wonder if they give an unfair advantage to players who are willing/able to roll with whatever they get (or know enough about wrath mechanics to make sensible abandonment choices).

It's possible [...] to join Trog on a book background. Why would that be a bug? The altar isn't named "unknown beneficial altar".

Joining Trog on a book background is what you're supposed to do.

[Moanerette]

These are still great. Had one for the first time in a few weeks and got Gozag, who I'd never felt inclined to try before. Enjoyed it too. I do hope the altars make it into stable.

[duvessa]

I hope not. Faded altar is sparkling fountains 2.0: you only ever use it if you are thoroughly unspoiled, startscumming, or doing a weird "challenge run", and there's a much easier way to pick a random god for your "challenge run" (just pick a random god before the game starts, you can even do it with !rng @god in ##crawl). Like, in some hypothetical future where crawl doesn't have 2.5 gods that make you less likely to win if you start worshipping them early, maybe it would be a reasonable feature, but as-is, it just seems like a crude attempt at getting players to use bad gods more often.

[mps]

I don't know if it's changed in the last couple of weeks, but you get ** piety with these things last time I used one. That's pretty damn good on d:2 for almost any god. Gods that suck primarily because they do nothing in the early game are a lot better when you start with that much piety. What are the cases you think are so bad they're going to kill you if you get them?

[duvessa]

chei, qazlal, and 0.5*xom

not "going to kill you", just "going to be worse than atheist for long enough that your overall chances of winning the game, assuming optimal play, are worse if you use faded altar"

also it gives you 20 bonus piety for 35 total, not anywhere near ** (50) unless you get lugonu (who has an extra piety bonus for some reason)

[mps]

Ah, I see. I got Lugonu when I tried it.