Remove Fatal Wrath


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Post Sunday, 21st June 2015, 13:18

Remove Fatal Wrath

God Wrath should not be directly fatal, because there isn't anything fun about dying in the middle of resting. Vehumet is the worst offender (8d21 firestorm); but Beogh can also do. Direct god damage simply doesn't produce anything interesting.
I'm beginning to feel like a Cat God! Felid streaks: {FeVM^Sif Muna, FeWn^Dithmenos, FeAr^Pakellas}, {FeEE^Ashenzari, FeEn^Gozag, FeNe^Sif Muna, FeAE^Vehumet...(ongoing)}

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Post Sunday, 21st June 2015, 13:31

Re: Remove Fatal Wrath

I would prefer to see wrath more dangerous, not less. There should not be standard advices like "Join Oka for gifts and then abandon for TSO".

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Post Sunday, 21st June 2015, 13:34

Re: Remove Fatal Wrath

If we don't want people changing gods, we should just make it so they can't change gods.

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bel

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Post Sunday, 21st June 2015, 13:40

Re: Remove Fatal Wrath

The "standard advice" does a good job of killing players:
  Code:
!lg * br=crypt s=ikiller
<Sequell> 2086 games for * (br=crypt): 243x an ancient lich, 124x, 118x a
                lich, 116x the fury of Okawaru


On the OP: I don't really see why god wrath should not be directly fatal, but it could conceivably set the HP to 1 instead of killing you.

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Sandman25

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Post Sunday, 21st June 2015, 14:09

Re: Remove Fatal Wrath

Hurkyl wrote:If we don't want people changing gods, we should just make it so they can't change gods.


Why? It should be dangerous, not trivial (or easy to control) like OP suggests.
Last edited by Sandman25 on Sunday, 21st June 2015, 14:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Sunday, 21st June 2015, 14:10

Re: Remove Fatal Wrath

bel wrote:On the OP: I don't really see why god wrath should not be directly fatal, but it could conceivably set the HP to 1 instead of killing you.


Except I don't see what is so interesting in using scroll of blinking or potion of heal wounds.
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Post Sunday, 21st June 2015, 14:11

Re: Remove Fatal Wrath

I've survived a lot of wrath and I've died to wrath. Beogh's is probably the hardest wrath (up to 136 damage that ignores AC and EV, bands of Orcs [at max level 3-4 Warlords and several high priests; much harder than anything in the branch]); dancing electrocution weapons, just insane; while Lugonu's is the most annoying (wrath ticks have about a 12% chance to banish you. went to the Abyss 7 times during that wrath). Makhleb's and Vehumet's can both kill you from full health if you get a bad roll and aren't a high AC character.

IDK; there's nothing fun about wrath, there's a mixture of annoying (sending you to the Abyss, summons, disenchanting equipment) and bad and as much as I know it's supposed to discourage switching it seems very extreme.

From a design perspective; why do we want to discourage switching gods THIS harshly?
I'm beginning to feel like a Cat God! Felid streaks: {FeVM^Sif Muna, FeWn^Dithmenos, FeAr^Pakellas}, {FeEE^Ashenzari, FeEn^Gozag, FeNe^Sif Muna, FeAE^Vehumet...(ongoing)}

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Post Sunday, 21st June 2015, 14:17

Re: Remove Fatal Wrath

The decision whether or not to change gods becomes trivial if gods switching were disallowed or (effectively) fatal. Leaving the choice open - even if it is a bad choice - is more in line with the design goals.

On the other hand Oka/Sif/Veh are frequently taken for their gifts - which the player retains after switching to another god. I suppose the harsh wrath is intended to discourage 'grinding'? (Why then is Kiku wrath easy to survive? Or Gozag for that matter?)

As it is Vehumet wrath is - if the Wiki is correct - basically stopping anyone sane and spoiled(!) from switching at all! Why would anyone switch? Well, maybe you don't feel like looking for runes endlessly and decide Ash will speed things up? Or whatever the reason...

If bad advice and bad play lead to many dead players in Crypt - well, good! But the ability to make questionable decisions should stay. Make them dangerous, but not instantly fatal (Crawl has very few instantly fatal effects... Paralysis).

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Post Sunday, 21st June 2015, 15:12

Re: Remove Fatal Wrath

Zwobot wrote:Leaving the choice open - even if it is a bad choice - is more in line with the design goals.
...
But the ability to make questionable decisions should stay.

Strongly disagree. And crawl already removes many instances of such things: e.g. you can't walk into lava and are strongly dissuaded from moving when confused while next to lava. The ability to change gods should only be allowed if at least some nontrivial fraction of god switches are actually good ideas for characters. If wrath is ratched up to the point where it's always a bad choice, then players shouldn't be given the option.
Last edited by Hurkyl on Sunday, 21st June 2015, 15:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Sunday, 21st June 2015, 15:22

Re: Remove Fatal Wrath

Hurkyl wrote:Strongly disagree. And crawl already removes many instances of such things: e.g. you can't walk into lava and are strongly dissuaded from moving next to lava when confused. The ability to change gods should only be allowed if at least some nontrivial fraction of god switches are actually good ideas for characters. If wrath is ratched up to the point where it's always a bad choice, then players shouldn't be given the option.


TSO is great in extended so it makes getting 10 runes easier, isn't it "actually good ideas for characters"?
Players can decide what they want - have harder times with getting those runes as Oka/Trog or have a chance to die to wrath. Sounds good to me.

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Post Sunday, 21st June 2015, 15:57

Re: Remove Fatal Wrath

Sandman25 wrote:TSO is great in extended so it makes getting 10 runes easier, isn't it "actually good ideas for characters"?

Only if 10 runes + Oka wrath while worshipping TSO is easier than 10 runes is with Oka.

Players can decide what they want - have harder times with getting those runes as Oka/Trog or have a chance to die to wrath. Sounds good to me.

And if we want people making such decisions, then wrath needs to be tuned to a corresponding level of danger. e.g. if Oka->TSO should be a thing, then people dying from making the switch should be because they played it badly, not because switching itself was a bad decision.

(I can't speak as to whether wrath currently is too much or too little danger)

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Post Sunday, 21st June 2015, 16:03

Re: Remove Fatal Wrath

Hurkyl wrote:
Sandman25 wrote:TSO is great in extended so it makes getting 10 runes easier, isn't it "actually good ideas for characters"?

Only if 10 runes + Oka wrath while worshipping TSO is easier than 10 runes is with Oka.

Players can decide what they want - have harder times with getting those runes as Oka/Trog or have a chance to die to wrath. Sounds good to me.

And if we want people making such decisions, then wrath needs to be tuned to a corresponding level of danger. e.g. if Oka->TSO should be a thing, then people dying from making the switch should be because they played it badly, not because switching itself was a bad decision.

(I can't speak as to whether wrath currently is too much or too little danger)


No, optimal play should not require switch Oka-TSO. For some characters the switch should be optimal, for other it should not. It is current state probably.

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Post Sunday, 21st June 2015, 16:10

Re: Remove Fatal Wrath

Already there's an argument about Oka->TSO~ That's good, showing that whether or not abandoning Oka is a good choice isn't so clear cut. It's a meaningful decision, just as in the design doc. Woooh!

And that was my point Hurkyl. Leaving a risky option open offers more interesting decisions, more options of how to play the game. For this the wrath should be dangerous, but not instantly fatal.

+1 Tone down Vehumet wrath.

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Post Sunday, 21st June 2015, 18:31

Re: Remove Fatal Wrath

I think it's absolutely fine for the switch from Oka -> TSO to be quite dangerous and end up killing a lot of characters. It is fundamentally a risky decision and it killing you means it's working as intended as far as I see it.

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Post Sunday, 21st June 2015, 18:49

Re: Remove Fatal Wrath

Then you could make it work even better by giving Oka a 50% chance of striking you dead immediately upon conversion!

Sar

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Post Sunday, 21st June 2015, 18:52

Re: Remove Fatal Wrath

We can just derive average winrates of combinations from online records and roll a die after the player finished generating a character and determine if he won or lost! Saves a lot of time! Reductio ad absurdum is fun!

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Post Sunday, 21st June 2015, 19:18

Re: Remove Fatal Wrath

Sar wrote:We can just derive average winrates of combinations from online records and roll a die after the player finished generating a character and determine if he won or lost! Saves a lot of time! Reductio ad absurdum is fun!

There should also be a prompt for number of runes, and possibly estimated number of turns so speedrunning could be possible.
DCSS: 97:...MfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}
FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWrNaAKBaFi{MiDeMfDe}{DrAKTrAMGhEnGnWz}
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Post Sunday, 21st June 2015, 19:31

Re: Remove Fatal Wrath

Hurkyl, can you explain how unavoidable death provides more opportunities for decisions than a series of dangerous enemies?

I think that Vehement should send a series of dangerous enemies, too. If statues that cast high level conjurations were placed such that no part of the level was not in LOS of at least one statue, then it would be a challenge to reach a stairwell or defeat a statue fast enough to reach safety. And then you would have to find a way to defeat enough of them to make safe zones to pass through.

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Post Sunday, 21st June 2015, 19:38

Re: Remove Fatal Wrath

Sandman25 wrote:There should not be standard advices like "Join Oka for gifts and then abandon for TSO".
Well this has been absolutely terrible advice for the entire history of crawl, and is still absolutely terrible advice, so I think the problem here isn't with crawl but with the people giving the advice

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Post Sunday, 21st June 2015, 20:18

Re: Remove Fatal Wrath

Hurkyl wrote:Then you could make it work even better by giving Oka a 50% chance of striking you dead immediately upon conversion!


It's possible to play with taking wrath into account like it's possible to play with taking teleportitis into account (I have the latter experience). For example, with some characters (rElec, lots of teleport, evocable blinking, high AC/EV) it's optimal to switch from Oka tot TSO because you can play safe and never be low on HP so wrath isn't going to kill you but it does not mean that switching should be easy and optimal with other characters.

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Post Sunday, 21st June 2015, 20:35

Re: Remove Fatal Wrath

jejorda2 wrote:Hurkyl, can you explain how unavoidable death provides more opportunities for decisions than a series of dangerous enemies?

Nope. In fact, that's the whole point of the reducto ad absurdum argument; if you make the consequences too deadly and too risky, you remove meaningful decisions from the game. Any argument that equates the goodness of something with how much it kills people is absurd.

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Post Sunday, 21st June 2015, 20:51

Re: Remove Fatal Wrath

Sandman25 wrote:
Hurkyl wrote:Then you could make it work even better by giving Oka a 50% chance of striking you dead immediately upon conversion!


It's possible to play with taking wrath into account like it's possible to play with taking teleportitis into account (I have the latter experience). For example, with some characters (rElec, lots of teleport, evocable blinking, high AC/EV) it's optimal to switch from Oka tot TSO because you can play safe and never be low on HP so wrath isn't going to kill you but it does not mean that switching should be easy and optimal with other characters.


Doesn't Oka wrath nowadays just mean: Fight a bunch on some random Pan floor, trigger wrath, hop into a portal. So long, suckers :)

jejorda2 wrote:I think that Vehement should send a series of dangerous enemies, too. If statues that cast high level conjurations were placed such that no part of the level was not in LOS of at least one statue, then it would be a challenge to reach a stairwell or defeat a statue fast enough to reach safety. And then you would have to find a way to defeat enough of them to make safe zones to pass through.


Agreed. random direct damage is boring... enemies air dropped seems over-used. (And what would Vehumet send anyway? Draconian Annihilators?) But... placing statues with high level conjurations at random (or in chokepoints). That could be fun and dangerous, while not being instant death.
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Post Monday, 22nd June 2015, 00:06

Re: Remove Fatal Wrath

I think there is a problem switching away from some gods is randomly 1hit ko fatal (Veh, Beogh) and a separate problem that switching to TSO (less extent Zin/Ely) is extremely strong for transitioning to extended.

For the first, I support more tension-based wrath. Do things that are less dangerous alone but more dangerous in tension. Don't decay wrath based on time, only XP, to prevent waiting it out in temple.

For the second, I suggest greater penalties when joining a good god in lategame. For example, you cannot join a good god while you have god wrath. That will make surviving your current god's wrath a little harder, but will make the choice of when to switch more interesting.

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Post Monday, 22nd June 2015, 00:34

Re: Remove Fatal Wrath

ash, jiyva, lugonu, makhleb, zin are all as good as or better than tso in extended

tso only looks amazing in extended because he is trash in not-extended

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Post Monday, 22nd June 2015, 00:40

Re: Remove Fatal Wrath

Jiyva, really? You can't Slimify most postend threats.

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Post Monday, 22nd June 2015, 06:55

Re: Remove Fatal Wrath

You see, after lair/orc there tends to be a long period where your character is fully established and basically just does the same thing over and over until the end of a 3 rune game. If it were more typical to switch gods somewhere in the middle of that, it could break up the monotony as your character adapts to the new god. Therefore I would prefer if god wrath were greatly reduced or eliminated. Loss of piety is discouragement enough.
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Post Monday, 22nd June 2015, 11:59

Re: Remove Fatal Wrath

Zwobot wrote:Doesn't Oka wrath nowadays just mean: Fight a bunch on some random Pan floor, trigger wrath, hop into a portal. So long, suckers :)


That random Pan floor can have a rune. I had Oka's wrath 3 times on Gloor Vlox floor, almost died.

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Post Monday, 22nd June 2015, 12:58

Re: Remove Fatal Wrath

Sandman25 wrote:
Zwobot wrote:Doesn't Oka wrath nowadays just mean: Fight a bunch on some random Pan floor, trigger wrath, hop into a portal. So long, suckers :)


That random Pan floor can have a rune. I had Oka's wrath 3 times on Gloor Vlox floor, almost died.


There's that, yes.

Mhmmm. I wonder if I can get all four pan lords and Oka's troop to hang out at the same time... Too bad they won't fight each other though :(

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