Stealthier when still


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Post Tuesday, 19th May 2015, 21:39

Stealthier when still

The way Crawl works today, a monster is equally likely to notice you whether you're moving, waiting, or fumbling around in your inventory. This makes it always ideal to move away from a dangerous monster that has not noticed you. It would make more intuitive sense, and make for interesting decisions, if pressing "." made you stealthier, or otherwise harder to notice. Make canines ignore it, because they use smell.

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Post Tuesday, 19th May 2015, 21:47

Re: Stealthier when still

One of the things bandied about for stealth in the past was a stealth 'gauge' where every step you took towards a monster would randomly bump up their chances to notice you, and if it got to the top of the 'gauge' *pop* you'd be seen. I see "stand still to increase your stealthiness" as something that plays well into that system, where there's some indicator of how likely it is that you'll be seen, and your actions can be seen to directly or impact that chance.

The problem without such a system is that there's no way to tell how likely you *are* to be spotted, much less communicate how standing still would improve that chance, being one step further away from something nasty is always better than being one step closer, and there's no way to indicate just how likely it is that they'll continue to not spot you if you move or stand still (Since there's no indication of how likely it is that they'll spot you in the first place) and therefore no way to make any sort of rational judgement as to whether it's more risky to stand still or move.
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Post Tuesday, 19th May 2015, 22:20

Re: Stealthier when still

tabstorm wrote:
Sandman25 wrote:I will try Sil and Brogue again more some day I guess, it should not be too hard to get used to ascii.


I eagerly await your reaction to move-s-move-s-move-s in Brogue.
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Post Tuesday, 19th May 2015, 22:23

Re: Stealthier when still

Sandman25 wrote:
tabstorm wrote:
Sandman25 wrote:I will try Sil and Brogue again more some day I guess, it should not be too hard to get used to ascii.


I eagerly await your reaction to move-s-move-s-move-s in Brogue.


to be entirely fair, tabstorm is talking about traps in brogue and not stealth
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Post Tuesday, 19th May 2015, 22:24

Re: Stealthier when still

Arrhythmia wrote:to be entirely fair, tabstorm is talking about traps in brogue and not stealth


So in crawl only As and En will be moving 1 tile - press . - move another tile - press . - move 1 tile?
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Post Tuesday, 19th May 2015, 22:25

Re: Stealthier when still

It would be more or less noticeable/intuitive if there is a great difference between the two. For example, cornered, the player sees that waiting has a good chance of having the enemy wander off. On the other hand, taking a step toward an enemy tends to alert them. So, waiting in LOS of monsters becomes a gamble, and there are many gambles in Crawl. I'm thinking of Amnesia the Dark Descent and the mechanics of hiding. The stealth 'gauge' Siegurt mentioned has to take into account whether you move toward a monster or not - and that can be really complicated. Plus it's unnecessary and even counterproductive - it's hard enough to sneak up on monsters as it is.

Siegurt wrote:being one step further away from something nasty is always better than being one step closer


directly contradicts one of Crawl's stated design goals.
Last edited by Pollen_Golem on Thursday, 21st May 2015, 18:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Tuesday, 19th May 2015, 22:28

Re: Stealthier when still

Pollen_Golem wrote:directly contradicts one of Crawl's stated design goals.


Not every no-brainer should be removed from the game. For example, "killing a monster is always better than dying to it" should stay.

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Post Tuesday, 19th May 2015, 22:37

Re: Stealthier when still

Sandman25 wrote:
Arrhythmia wrote:to be entirely fair, tabstorm is talking about traps in brogue and not stealth


So in crawl only As and En will be moving 1 tile - press . - move another tile - press . - move 1 tile?


no, because that doesn't make sense even in PG's system.
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Post Tuesday, 19th May 2015, 22:40

Re: Stealthier when still

Arrhythmia wrote:no, because that doesn't make sense even in PG's system.


Sorry, it looks like I misunderstood what he was suggesting (I still don't understand what PG suggested but it's ok as long as it does not add tedium to the game. The only situation when you are passing turns with monsters in LoS is when you need to regenerate HP/MP or are watining for teleport and pressing . is exactly what I do in those situations anyway)

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Post Tuesday, 19th May 2015, 22:59

Re: Stealthier when still

Now I think I understand. Let's assume we have 1 monster in LoS and it is 3 tiles away and it has 10% chance to notice character and that pressing '.' decreases the chance by 2%. So player has "choice":
1) move 3 tiles immediately and have 0.9^3 chance to stay unnoticed before it will be able to attack the monster
2) spend 1 turn pressing '.' and have 0.9*0.92^3 chance to stay unnoticed before it will be able to attack the monster
3) spend 2 turns pressing '.' and have 0.9*0.92*0.94^3 chance to stay unnoticed before it will be able to attack the monster.
4) spend 3 turns pressing '.' and so on.
I don't like the "choice", there is always an optimal option and I don't want to spend more time with calculator.

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Post Wednesday, 20th May 2015, 00:08

Re: Stealthier when still

Sandman25 wrote:snip

No, the idea in the OP is just "If you press . you have a higher stealth score for that turn than if you move".

I don't think this is a good idea if there's no way to tell how much it will help, like Siegurt said.
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Post Wednesday, 20th May 2015, 01:37

Re: Stealthier when still

Wahaha wrote:there's no way to tell how much it will help


Buff it until it becomes obvious.

It makes sense in real life that when standing still, you are much much harder to spot. If there's an orc wandering a couple tiles from you, you should have a fairer chance of stabbing it by waiting for it to come near, than by rushing it. Think of the implications.
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Post Wednesday, 20th May 2015, 01:51

Re: Stealthier when still

Wait, maybe I missed the part about why I would want to just sit in LOS of a sleeping monster. Is there some benefit I'm not seeing?
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Post Wednesday, 20th May 2015, 01:57

Re: Stealthier when still

About the only time I can think of when I would want to stay still in the LoS of a monster would be if I was waiting for teleport to kick in. Why would I not be moving away or towards it?

The case seems too niche to bother.

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Post Wednesday, 20th May 2015, 02:41

Re: Stealthier when still

You might want a monster to wander away if it comes into sight from around a corner, a centaur for example. You'd freeze in real life too, in that situation. What's the real life alternative? Back away inconspicuously?

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Post Wednesday, 20th May 2015, 02:46

Re: Stealthier when still

IRL there are 3 reactions:
1) freeze
2) run away
3) fight
They can be combined with crying loud.

Freezing (1) vs Centaur around the corner would be the worst action as it can attack you twice when you are unstealthy and you are doing nothing. If you are stealthy, you should either run away (2) or come closer (3).

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Post Wednesday, 20th May 2015, 04:09

Re: Stealthier when still

Pollen_Golem wrote:It would make more intuitive sense, and make for interesting decisions, if pressing "." made you stealthier, or otherwise harder to notice. Make canines ignore it, because they use smell.


I see where you are coming from with "intuitive sense," though I also do not think it is badly counter-intuitive in the context of a video game if your stealth level not to vary between waiting and moving. More importantly, though, the "interesting decisions" part strikes me as dubious. Unless something more fundamental changed about stealth in Crawl (as Siegurt described), I really don't see how stealthy waiting would lead to many interesting decisions. Most actions other than waiting, including moving, would tend to be better.

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Post Wednesday, 20th May 2015, 08:06

Re: Stealthier when still

There are situations where I might want to wait with a monster in LOS. But they mostly are where that monster is nonthreatening and is blocking another, more threatening monster from attacking: ie. situations where stealth already doesn't matter.

In principle I can agree that it seems more intuitive, but in practice it doesn't seem like it would make any noticable difference unless the player is already playing poorly.
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Post Wednesday, 20th May 2015, 08:30

Re: Stealthier when still

Well if stealth was increased, oh, say, tenfold when waiting... then that could open up some practical opportunities, like making noise, then standing still and waiting for monsters to come to you. If you buff it enough, waiting could become overpowered. Taken to the extreme, you'd basically become scenery for the monsters. Of course I don't advocate taking it THAT far. So, no fundamental changes about stealth are necessary.

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Post Wednesday, 20th May 2015, 12:08

Re: Stealthier when still

That would be very bad gameplay for me - pressing the same button again and again and checking every time "Is the monster adjacent already?" Even luring would be more interesting, less annoying and less time-consuming.

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Post Wednesday, 20th May 2015, 13:32

Re: Stealthier when still

Pollen_Golem wrote:The way Crawl works today, a monster is equally likely to notice you whether you're moving, waiting, or fumbling around in your inventory. This makes it always ideal to move away from a dangerous monster that has not noticed you.


What you propose wouldn't significantly change this. Monsters check stealth after you move, not after they move, so if a monster moves into your LOS, you always get the first action before they detect you, and if you that action is moving out of LOS, the monster will not have noticed you no matter how low your stealth score is.

As a side note, this is the reason that wearing plate armour with no Stealth skill and Ru's Sac Stealth aren't all that painful.

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Post Wednesday, 20th May 2015, 14:04

Re: Stealthier when still

Well, I see how it would be useful, for example, I am standing in a corner, and a scary monster comes into view, but hasn't seen me yet. I can either run for it, hoping said monster doesn't see me while I run, or I can wait a turn and hope the monster steps away, thus allowing me to run away with the monster out of LOS.

In fact, I already do this sometimes, because for some reason I thought standing still was stealthier than moving.

Is it so rare that you find yourself in a bad state, and a monster comes into view but has not seen you yet? I feel like this happens fairly often in vaults 5, pan, and abyss.

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Post Wednesday, 20th May 2015, 14:10

Re: Stealthier when still

dowan wrote:Well, I see how it would be useful, for example, I am standing in a corner, and a scary monster comes into view, but hasn't seen me yet. I can either run for it, hoping said monster doesn't see me while I run, or I can wait a turn and hope the monster steps away, thus allowing me to run away with the monster out of LOS.

In fact, I already do this sometimes, because for some reason I thought standing still was stealthier than moving.


I already do this sometimes too despite I know it does not increase stealth. If you can try to avoid a dangerous fight, it is often optimal to try. I don't see what is changed with PG suggestion except it becomes easier to avoid dangerous fights (which is probably not needed).
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Post Wednesday, 20th May 2015, 14:47

Re: Stealthier when still

Well, and Lasty's explanation is useful: if you can step out of LOS of a wandering monster, it will absolutely not see you.

I'd always kind of imagined that stealth was implemented as noise, and that if you were unstealthy enough, monsters out of LoS could detect you. Guess not...
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Post Wednesday, 20th May 2015, 17:14

Re: Stealthier when still

I'm amazed people are saying they would not find the ability to stand still and become stealthier useful. Of course that would be useful. Monsters come into LoS in such a way that you can't just move out of their LoS in one step all the time. I don't see how it could possibly be more tedious to have the option to stand still and let them walk away than to be stuck fighting a monster you don't want to because you can't plausibly prevent them from noticing you. This would be particularly nice if it negated the armor stealth penalty, since heavy armor characters would at least have one stealth option as opposed to none.
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Post Wednesday, 20th May 2015, 18:09

Re: Stealthier when still

I was going to post something along the same lines MPS, but I decided against it, because I feel the same logical argument has already been made and successfully ignored. I also would love to see the version of crawl some people play, which apparently takes place in some weird wall-less abyss where you can always just step out of LOS.

Whether making it easier to occasionally avoid an unwanted fight is a good thing is a valid question, but obviously it would be a lot more intuitive if my plate armour didn't make a bunch of noise when I was standing perfectly still, rather than the way it works now, where whether or not I move my armour is just constantly rattling around.

Here's a crappy ascii picture to describe one of the many situations where such an ability would be useful:
  Code:
# = wall
? = monster that hasn't noticed me
@ = @

#########
#       ?
#@
#########


Oh no, a monster appeared while I was resting in this corner, and my hps are still low!! Trying to run out of this little alcove is almost certain to make that monster notice me. If I just pass a turn, maybe he'll wander away!(Which is exactly what I would do in current crawl). Having a bonus to stealth when passing a turn, rather than moving, would make a lot of intuitive sense.

Edit: mod put ascii into code tag to aid clarity

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Post Wednesday, 20th May 2015, 18:58

Re: Stealthier when still

The proposed feature, if implemented, wouldn't be useless, but it wouldn't change it being better to step out of LOS. What's more important than whether the feature is useless is whether it would be a good addition to the game. I'm not convinced it would be, but I don't feel strongly about it.

mps wrote:I don't see how it could possibly be more tedious to have the option to stand still and let them walk away than to be stuck fighting a monster you don't want to because you can't plausibly prevent them from noticing you.

I'd think that being stuck fighting a monster you don't want to would be the opposite of tedious. Many of the most interesting situations I find myself in in Crawl involve being stuck fighting a monster I don't want to fight or trying to avoid being stuck fighting a monster I don't want to fight.

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Post Wednesday, 20th May 2015, 21:24

Re: Stealthier when still

mps wrote:This would be particularly nice if it negated the armor stealth penalty, since heavy armor characters would at least have one stealth option as opposed to none.


This is a great idea. It's even easy to show in the % screen, like this:
  Code:
Stlth +++++***..

Where pluses indicate your stealth when doing stuff, whereas pluses together with asterisks indicate your stealth when waiting.
That is, your 'naked' stealth score would be 8 pips in this example.
Shadow dragon armor could become so powerful.

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Post Wednesday, 20th May 2015, 21:36

Re: Stealthier when still

Well, if you are going to buff heavy armour characters, how about giving +5 EV to characters in robe if they pressed . as last action? They rested a bit and are ready to dodge incoming missiles. Maybe we could even increase Int by 5 for a turn to make it a no-brainer to cast Magic Dart as soon as you enter LoS of a monster.

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Post Wednesday, 20th May 2015, 21:46

Re: Stealthier when still

It's not that big of a buff to heavy armour chars because it only really helps those who have dumped skill into stealth, which mostly goes to waste with heavy armor, even if this one change is implemented.
And, well, I think a stealth bonus for unencumbered characters who wait is also reasonable.
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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 18:53

Re: Stealthier when still

Sandman25 wrote:That would be very bad gameplay for me - pressing the same button again and again and checking every time "Is the monster adjacent already?"


I don't know about that, man. Stealth games can be very fun even when you spend 80%+ of a level just waiting, or slowly moving around - and that's in real time. Crawl tedium is limited by how fast you can process visual information.


Lasty wrote:
Pollen_Golem wrote:The way Crawl works today, a monster is equally likely to notice you whether you're moving, waiting, or fumbling around in your inventory. This makes it always ideal to move away from a dangerous monster that has not noticed you.


What you propose wouldn't significantly change this. Monsters check stealth after you move, not after they move, so if a monster moves into your LOS, you always get the first action before they detect you, and if you that action is moving out of LOS, the monster will not have noticed you no matter how low your stealth score is.

As a side note, this is the reason that wearing plate armour with no Stealth skill and Ru's Sac Stealth aren't all that painful.


The wording here makes it sound like this is the default kind of encounter in Crawl. A monster might come out from a corner 4 tiles away from you, and you have nowhere to duck out of LOS. A monster might move into you LOS faster than you can retreat (you're slowed or it's a centaur). A fast monster might move two tiles into your LOS from a distance (meaning you've passed a stealth check once) so that even moving away one tile will leave it in your LOS. You might have monsters move into your LOS from different directions. You might move into the LOS of a monster you wish to avoid even at full health, pass a stealth check, and have that monster wander a tile toward you. What you are saying makes Crawl sound like a very safe game to play conservatively. In fact, what you are talking about applies only in a very specific situation.


Lasty wrote:I'd think that being stuck fighting a monster you don't want to would be the opposite of tedious. Many of the most interesting situations I find myself in in Crawl involve being stuck fighting a monster I don't want to fight or trying to avoid being stuck fighting a monster I don't want to fight.

You can get stuck in that situation even by waiting with a boosted waiting stealth score: the monster may notice you when it's in an even better position to fight you, or maybe other monsters have just wandered in as well. It would be a gamble, as I said.

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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 20:02

Re: Stealthier when still

Pollen_Golem wrote:What you are saying makes Crawl sound like a very safe game to play conservatively


I am glad you learned something new today ;)
Conservative/optimal play is too safe, boring and time-consuming, that's what I was complaining about in CYC. Please don't make it worse.
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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 20:19

Re: Stealthier when still

Erm... Crawling is dangerous, even if you play conservatively. Angband, from what I've heard, is danger-less if you play conservatively.
Sandman25 wrote:that's what I was complaining about in CYC.

In the "follow a bad guide" thread?
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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 20:23

Re: Stealthier when still

Well, it depends on the definition of 'dangerous'. The best players can achieve pretty long streaks of winning games when playing very carefully.

Angband may be in its own league, of course, because you can grind the levels as long as you want before advancing further (or so I've heard).
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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 20:24

Re: Stealthier when still

Pollen_Golem wrote:Erm... Crawling is dangerous, even if you play conservatively. Angband, from what I've heard, is danger-less if you play conservatively.
Sandman25 wrote:that's what I was complaining about in CYC.

In the "follow a bad guide" thread?


That means Angband is even worse which does not surprise me provided crawl is the best roguelike ever.

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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 20:42

Re: Stealthier when still

Is ignoring the armor penalty to stealth when standing still really going to make the game much easier? It seems like it would make it the tiniest bit easier, but the real benefit is that stealth mechanics would be a lot more intuitive. If I stand perfectly still, my plate mail doesn't clang around, just like a sane person might expect.

Standing still to get a stab on a wandering enemy would still be a bad idea, unless the monster was 1 space away from you. Can you explain how you think this would make the game any more tedious, in a way that the existing stealth mechanics don't already?
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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 20:46

Re: Stealthier when still

dowan wrote: any more tedious, in a way that the existing stealth mechanics don't already?

Yeah, the Lasty maneuver could also be dismissed as "tedious" - keep moving away from the monster until it's out of LOS. So tedious! :cry:

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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 20:49

Re: Stealthier when still

dowan wrote:Can you explain how you think this would make the game any more tedious, in a way that the existing stealth mechanics don't already?


Heavy armour character would press . to heal with monsters in LoS and check every turn if it has been noticed.
Previously it was tedious for stealthy characters only and even then they had an option to move away from even an adjacent monster (movement didn't affect stealth) and then press 5 instead of pressing . 100 times. Now stealthy characters would need to stay and press . 100 times instead of trying to retreat.
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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 20:56

Re: Stealthier when still

Sandman25 wrote:instead of pressing . 100 times. Now stealthy characters would need to stay and press . 100 times instead of trying to retreat.

You can't rely on pressing . 100 times without being noticed [edit: unless you keep up invisibility somehow, in which case movement won't even matter]
Last edited by Pollen_Golem on Thursday, 21st May 2015, 21:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 20:57

Re: Stealthier when still

But... why? If I can take 2 steps at moderate stealth, and escape LOS, that's still surely better than standing still for an unknown amount of turns at somewhat higher stealth.

And your heavy armor character example already applies to current stealthy characters, doesn't it?

I think 100 times is quite an exaggeration, the monster will surely notice you before then, or will have wandered out of LOS. I guess I see your concern, but it's equally a concern for the existence of stealth in the game at all.

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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 21:05

Re: Stealthier when still

dowan wrote:But... why? If I can take 2 steps at moderate stealth, and escape LOS, that's still surely better than standing still for an unknown amount of turns at somewhat higher stealth.

And your heavy armor character example already applies to current stealthy characters, doesn't it?

I think 100 times is quite an exaggeration, the monster will surely notice you before then, or will have wandered out of LOS. I guess I see your concern, but it's equally a concern for the existence of stealth in the game at all.


Heavy armour character cannot take those 2 steps, they will be noticed after first one.

Current stealthy characters still can move wherever they want, you are suggesting to remove an option of moving when they are really low on HP because it is optimal to minimize chance to be noticed in such situation.

That 100 times is not an exaggeration when you have no way to retreat but there are a few tiles out of monster's LoS (a corner) and the monster is wandering. Standing and pressing . 100 times would be optimal instead of making a few steps to reach the corner and resting there with 5 because monster still can wander into that corner easily.
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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 21:23

Re: Stealthier when still

Sandman25 wrote:when you have no way to retreat but there are a few tiles out of monster's LoS (a corner)


I can't parse that paragraph. So there are tiles out of a monster's LoS - ie all the tiles the monster does not see. Then you mention - a corner?
Maybe you mean this:

  Code:
XXXXXXX
X    @X   
X X   X
XXX   X
XXX   X
XXX   X
XXX ? X


Either
1) You beeline for that corner, and get noticed, or not.
2) You wait, the monsters hangs around, and notices you eventually (almost certainly within 100 turns).
3) You wait, the monster wanders off, and you beeline for that corner.

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Post Thursday, 21st May 2015, 22:13

Re: Stealthier when still

Something like that.

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Pandemonium Purger

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Post Friday, 22nd May 2015, 19:56

Re: Stealthier when still

Sandman25 wrote:Well, if you are going to buff heavy armour characters, [then you'll give them an unfair advantage]

This can be solved by increasing the default armor penalty to stealth, from -2/3*encumberace^2, to -encumberance^2, for example. Most heavily armed characters wouldn't mind anyway.

As a whole, I see this as a rather minor change that players can get used to quickly.

I would not advocate some other stealth mechanics that have crossed my mind. It would be a bad idea to allow players to increase ambient noise by producing very loud sounds, or to deafen monsters with loud sounds so they actually stop responding to noise. That might make some sense in real life, but would be confusing in the video game's context. Noise mechanics are hard enough to grasp as they are. I really liked what mps suggested because it is simple to implement, and simple to understand, and noticeable through play.

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Post Saturday, 23rd May 2015, 14:31

Re: Stealthier when still

Sandman25 wrote:Now I think I understand. Let's assume we have 1 monster in LoS and it is 3 tiles away and it has 10% chance to notice character and that pressing '.' decreases the chance by 2%. So player has "choice":
1) move 3 tiles immediately and have 0.9^3 chance to stay unnoticed before it will be able to attack the monster
2) spend 1 turn pressing '.' and have 0.9*0.92^3 chance to stay unnoticed before it will be able to attack the monster
3) spend 2 turns pressing '.' and have 0.9*0.92*0.94^3 chance to stay unnoticed before it will be able to attack the monster.
4) spend 3 turns pressing '.' and so on.
I don't like the "choice", there is always an optimal option and I don't want to spend more time with calculator.


So you think making choices in a video game, where one choice will sometimes be better than another choice is a bad thing? If choice a isn't better or worse than choice b, then there's really no choice at all. If there aren't choices, it's not a game, it's a movie. While some of your arguments in this thread hold water, this one really doesn't make any sense to me.

You could bring out your calculator before every single move you make in crawl if you want, in most cases there will be an optimal choice. I would go so far as to say knowing which choice is optimal in a large variety of situations is what we call 'being good at crawl'. I like the idea that crawl is a game you can be good at, rather than a game where things just happen to you.
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Pandemonium Purger

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Post Saturday, 23rd May 2015, 15:10

Re: Stealthier when still

@dowan: it's ok, he said he doesn't like THE "choice". What sandman thought up is a kind of 'tiptoes mode' you'd enter by pressing "." several times. It's not something I'd take a liking to either.

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Post Saturday, 23rd May 2015, 15:32

Re: Stealthier when still

dowan wrote:If choice a isn't better or worse than choice b, then there's really no choice at all.


Don't forget specific situation which I was describing. Without numbers player has no idea if pressing . is a good move, intuition (previous experience) is useless here too. With numbers you would encourage calculating those probabilities which is bad. But basically you can ignore my example, it is completely wrong: if that mechanic was in crawl, it would be optimal to press . 20+ times before pressing o and I hope it is obvious why we should not provide choice "press . 20 times before o" or not.
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Post Saturday, 23rd May 2015, 19:03

Re: Stealthier when still

Honestly, I just think that the concept of "stealthier when still" is more aligned to the design goals of games that work in real-time, rather than turn-based games.

Generally, real-time games reward players who move and take actions rapidly, emphasizing reflexes, quick thinking, and adaptability. "Stealthier when still" and "stealthier when moving slowly" are common mechanics as well, and they reward the opposite player behaviors: patience, observation, planning. In real-time games, players have to judge whether one approach is better than another in different circumstances, and the tension between "should I go fast" and "should I go slow" in any given situation creates an interesting dynamic.

However, in Crawl you are never penalized for staying still and taking time to think through your actions as a player, which means there is no real reason to encourage you to stay still and take time as a character. There are definitely examples of turn-based games that have "stand still to get more stealth" mechanics, and I think they don't work. I don't think that Brogue has an interesting stealth system at all, even if I like a lot of other things about Brogue.

For this message the author roctavian has received thanks: 4
archaeo, duvessa, PleasingFungus, Sandman25

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Post Sunday, 24th May 2015, 00:56

Re: Stealthier when still

roctavian wrote:There are definitely examples of turn-based games that have "stand still to get more stealth" mechanics, and I think they don't work. I don't think that Brogue has an interesting stealth system at all, even if I like a lot of other things about Brogue.

It works nicely in Sil, but Sil has a relatively simple and clear stealth system, with a lot of the game being designed around that system, which is very much not the case in Crawl!

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Post Sunday, 24th May 2015, 01:19

Re: Stealthier when still

crawls stealth system is simple but it doesnt bother to make it clear and it especially wouldnt bother to make it clear after this change
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