Orb Run Reform

[archaeo]

I've bandied this idea about on tileschat before, so I figured I'd give it an airing on Tavern.

The problem: the orb run isn't very good. Even if the occasional panlord makes it dangerous -- I've died on the orb run before, actually -- it's never particularly interesting. It's just a quick walk back to where you started, aided by the fact that a) you probably killed most of the things living between Zot:5 and D:1, and b) you probably still have stacks of consumables and since you only have a few hundred turns left, you're totally free to use them liberally. It's a sad state of affairs when NetHack can one-up you, but I think its ascension, weird planes and all, is far more interesting and tension-filled than anything crawl has to offer.

The fundamental problem is the fact that the dungeon is exactly the same as it was when the orb was still behind an army of OOFs. This leads to the orb run only really being interesting for speedrunners, since they often get forced into unmapped territory they left behind.

I'm interested in hearing other ideas for reforming the orb run, but here's my suggestion: make the orb of zot load-bearing. Arrhy is the originator of this idea, usually brought up in conjunction with the Cave of Wonders sequence from Aladdin. What if, after picking up the orb, the dungeon started falling apart? You could have the map generator create big chasms of lava, use some of the Qaz wrath code to create big elemental effects. You could outright throw out all the maps drawn before and replace the entire orb run with a new set of this-place-is-falling-apart maps. You could make it so that levels are randomly "being torn away into the Abyss" or "falling into Hell" or "being taken over by Pan," changing big swaths of floors or replacing them entirely with Abyss, Hell, or Pan floors.

Even if my ideas are half-baked, though, it still seems like we could have an orb run that was more fun.

[Sprucery]

I like the current Orb run. I set autotravel target to the exit and then excitedly wait how many times travel gets interrupted and how many Pan lords I see. I wouldn't like the game to be lengthened after picking up the Orb. I especially woud not like autotravel to stop working during the ascension.

(I've also died once with the Orb, on D:1, no less.)

[XuaXua]

Once I understood the Orb Run, I pre-explored all stairs for autotravel maximization, and blocked off any stairs that led up to dead ends. Sometimes, I used wands of digging/disintegration to resolve those pesky swirly staircase entrances.

[njvack]

Hm. Yeah, as long as the maps are the same, making the orb run more dangerous encourages the stuff XuaXua does -- clearing an optimal shortest path through the dungeon before grabbing the orb. Which is kind of a silly thing to encourage.

Honestly, I think it would be OK if leaving Zot:5 with the orb could end the game and that would be OK.

Failing that, though, something along the OP's idea seems like a good way to prevent prepping D for ascension.

[dpeg]

The real question is what you want to achieve with the orb run: should it be a leisurely stroll home with the orb (as it is sort of now in Crawl), or should it be the endgame (as it is in Nethack)? Since Crawl's (standard game) end battle is supposed to take place in Zot:5, the orb run is more a flavour device to close the story: you have the mcguffin, locals are not happy about it, you win anyway.

I think it's cool that sometimes the orb run spawns catch a character barehanded, but if the goal is a tighter orb run, then that'd certainly need further changes. I don't think that's necessary. (It would definitely be possible to work around players pre-digging shortcuts etc. but I'd only start thinking about that if forced to, not preemptively.)

Note how Brogue has changed its amulet run from peaceful walk home to a relentless sprint. If you're into that kind of thing (or just looking for a really good roguelike, give Brogue a shot.)

[dowan]

During the orb run, monsters spawn in at random, some of them panlords, casting a random spellset that can kill you at random. So clearly standard tactics are right out the window anyway. Strategically, you need to do certain things to be able to get the orb in the first place (Namely, be able to deal with OOFs, Aliches, etc), do you really want to add another strategic consideration just for the orb run?

I think the current orb run is fine as is. There's a hint of danger, and sometimes you have to do some crazy stuff, but for the most part it won't kill you, which is a good thing, because you already beat the part of the game that's crawl. To me, having a dangerous orb run would be kind of like forcing the player to beat a level of Ikaruga* to win the game. Fans of Ikaruga would enjoy it, but people who don't like that sort of game would be rightly annoyed.

To me, the orb run as is is acceptable only because there's really not too much danger. If I had to traverse 25 unexplored levels, with pan lords being air dropped on me at random, to win the game, I'd be pretty annoyed, because I wouldn't have played crawl in the first place if it was that kind of game.

Spoiler: show

Ikaruga is a bullet hell shoot-em-up, with a cool twist; All bullets are either red or blue, and you can change back and forth between a red and blue shield, which absorbs bullets of the same color. One hit from a bullet of the opposite color kills you. So you have to kind of train your brain to ignore the shots that are the same color as your shield, while dodging the opposite colored ones, and switch appropriately. It's lots of fun, but very hard, and in no way like dungeon crawl

[mps]

Well, in the spirit of bringing tileschat to tavern, I would suggest putting the orb on depths:5 and making it teleport the player to the orb chamber in zot:5. Instead of zot:1 going back to U, it should just exit the dungeon entirely, so you get a short, intense orb run. Tweaks would probably be necessary to make this workable, of course.

[Wahaha]

I had many interesting orb runs so I'm fine with the current orb run. Yeah sometimes I autotravel to D:1 and nothing happens. But there are many games where a fiend or hellion spawns, and I have to carefully avoid it, and sometimes I get low on health. Some of the orb runs were very hard.

What I would like is more consistent difficulty. Autotraveling to D:1 with nothing happening shouldn't happen. The monster spawn generator should have a certain minimum difficulty to adhere to. Ideas like deforming the dungeon maps might be cool too but I think the minimum difficulty should be fixed first. This should not make the orb run harder, it should only remove the very easy orb runs.

[duvessa]

What if the game just ended when you left Zot:5 with the orb? Or Zot:1, at least? I suspect the threat posed by orb run would not decrease by very much. Unlike ending the game when you pick up the orb, you would still need to get out of the orb chamber, and it would be more elegant than the current slow march back to d:1 where your autotravel is constantly interrupted by imps and 3s because it's "flavourful" and you can only die from inattention or not knowing what pan lords are.
I'm also surprised I don't see more complaints about how spoiler-reliant the whole thing is is. There's nothing in the game to indicate that the Orb will break a bunch of your spells, in a way nothing else in the game does, until it's already too late. When apportation fails on the orb the first time, it seems like most people don't even think to try casting it again, let alone guess the controlled blink or teleport interactions. I know players are intended to learn these things by dying to them, but is that really the path you want to take for the very end of a game with permadeath?

[archaeo]

I set autotravel target to the exit and then excitedly wait how many times travel gets interrupted and how many Pan lords I see.

To me, the orb run as is is acceptable only because there's really not too much danger. If I had to traverse 25 unexplored levels, with pan lords being air dropped on me at random, to win the game, I'd be pretty annoyed, because I wouldn't have played crawl in the first place if it was that kind of game.

I just genuinely don't understand these views. If "not too much danger" is the goal, duvessa has the right of it: just cut out all of the non-Zot levels, maybe prevent orb apportation, and get rid of those glassed-in staircase vaults. Even if you like the current orb run, it's hard to suggest that 25 floors of it is really necessary to hammer the point home.

The real question is what you want to achieve with the orb run: should it be a leisurely stroll home with the orb (as it is sort of now in Crawl), or should it be the endgame (as it is in Nethack)? Since Crawl's (standard game) end battle is supposed to take place in Zot:5, the orb run is more a flavour device to close the story: you have the mcguffin, locals are not happy about it, you win anyway.

I think it's cool that sometimes the orb run spawns catch a character barehanded, but if the goal is a tighter orb run, then that'd certainly need further changes. I don't think that's necessary. (It would definitely be possible to work around players pre-digging shortcuts etc. but I'd only start thinking about that if forced to, not preemptively.)

Why does a game need a "leisurely stroll home" though? The game tells you that you're about to be pursued by some of its toughest enemies, and encourages you to hurry. If the developers intend us to treat it as leisurely, maybe they should change that message, something like "Welp, you won the game! Amble on upstairs to get your official win!"

I think it'd be better if the orb run was tighter, ideally with smaller, fewer, more dramatic levels on the way back up. I'll cheerfully concede that it isn't "necessary," dpeg, but the status quo results in a situation where the game's easiest section is also its last one. I don't think that's good design.

Also, for what it's worth, as a "flavour device," the orb run has only the tiniest soupçon of flavour. If the orb run had a color, it'd be beige. If it were food, it would be unseasoned oatmeal, prepared with water by an old sad man. All I can tell you is that a) the orb makes pretty purple light around you and b) the Lords of Pan, who I know nothing about except for their job title and place of residence, are annoyed you took the orb, even though none of them tried to stop you beforehand.

[mps]

It's surprising how often these threads are answered by "well, have you tried brogue?"

[Sprucery]

Even if you like the current orb run, it's hard to suggest that 25 floors of it is really necessary to hammer the point home.

I wouldn't object to making the orb run shorter (like get out of Zot). But I rather have the current orb run than a significantly harder one. After I died once, I always get excited when I see a Pan lord.

Of course there's also difference between 3-runers and 15-runers on how dangerous random Pan lords are...

[thromnambular]

What if after you get out of Zot the orb just warps you up a few floors when you take an upstairs?

[Greyr]

It's surprising how often these threads are answered by "well, have you tried brogue?"

Well, have you? It's pretty solid design wise and is inherently relevant to how Crawl could play.

[Sandman25]

The most interesting orb runs I've seen happened in Zot 1 and Depths 1 when the only stairs were blocked with daeva, panlord, ancient lich etc. An easy way to significantly increase difficulty would be to make only one stairs available on every level. Teleport is too helpful/cheap during orb run IMHO.

[njvack]

The real question is what you want to achieve with the orb run: should it be a leisurely stroll home with the orb (as it is sort of now in Crawl), or should it be the endgame (as it is in Nethack)?

I kind of feel like Crawl is in a sour spot with regards to these two options, now. It's kind of a leisurely stroll up to the surface -- except you get a bunch of monsters spawning who people who haven't done extended will never have met before, and may cast spells they've never seen. It's the one place in a 3-rune game where the correct option is "fight no monsters." As duvessa points out, it messes with your escape options in new, unique ways. And I agree with him: the orb run might not be the best place to introduce that content and concept to players. Dying to Cerebov on a first orb grab would, I think, be pretty frustrating -- especially when it's not inherently obvious that you're just not supposed to fight him.

One other option might be to have the difficulty of the orb run scale with the number of runes you have. Three runes? You pretty much get to walk up to the surface. Maybe you get some top-tier spawns of the denizens of D, U, V, and your S rune. 15 runes? You see the demons, abyss, maybe the remains of Slime. The whole works.

Having the orb inflict negative statuses (except maybe -cTele, which Zot:5 already has) seems unnecessary to me.

Disclaimer: I don't hate the orb run as it is. It's OK, IMO. But I've been to that rodeo a few times, so I know what to expect from it and its spawns.

[Arrhythmia]

Dying to Cerebov on a first orb grab would, I think, be pretty frustrating -- especially when it's not inherently obvious that you're just not supposed to fight him.

Ignoring the impossible edge case where you somehow swagjack his rune without even seeing him, Cerebov is never introduced on the orb run.

[Sprucery]

Ignoring the impossible edge case where you somehow swagjack his rune without even seeing him, Cerebov is never introduced on the orb run.

But the OP proposed:

You could make it so that levels are randomly "being torn away into the Abyss" or "falling into Hell" or "being taken over by Pan," changing big swaths of floors or replacing them entirely with Abyss, Hell, or Pan floors.

which could be interpreted so that Cerebov could indeed be met during the orb run (if "replacing with Pan floors" would mean "complete with the boss").

[archaeo]

which could be interpreted so that Cerebov could indeed be met during the orb run (if "replacing with Pan floors" would mean "complete with the boss").

I was actually thinking more like miniature pan/abyss/hell levels rather than making you get through real ones.

[njvack]

Ignoring the impossible edge case where you somehow swagjack his rune without even seeing him, Cerebov is never introduced on the orb run.

Huh, I thought that got changed.

[elmdor]

I really, really love the idea of making the dungeon destabilize upon the Orb being seized. Right now the only thing that happens is that new monsters spawn. IMO there should be a chance of seeing lots of other "fun" effects as well. Here are a few suggestions.

-Holding the orb causes increase in contamination
-1/3 chance for staircases to be blocked by falling rubble (so people like me can't be sure of micromanaging the shortest orbrun ahead of time)
-Flame, ice, steam, miasma, mutagenic, chaos clouds appear at random
-Player receives -Wiz penalty due to magical interference from the powerful Orb
-Chance of experiencing wrath effects from gods other than your own (they don't want another god's champion to win!!)
-Your god sends you special help in the form of temporary allies
-Cancellation potions evaporate when used, or have a chance of failing (nothing can cancel the Orb's power)
-The Orb "cooks" potions in your inventory, causing them to activate randomly, or else explode (return of item destruction!!!)
-Dungeon shops close and all unsold items are seized by greedy looting monsters
-Monster generation rate triples as the denizens of the dungeon hustle up; D1 exit is swarmed by a mob of monsters attempting to escape before the dungeon collapses
-Seeing that you possess the orb, monsters re-evaluate their opinion of you, and have a chance to turn neutral or even become allies: (The frost giant kneels and booms, "Bearer of the Orb, what is your bidding?")
-Transparent rock has a chance to be destroyed by magical vibrations, freeing monsters trapped in vaults
-Xom is in raptures of ecstasy at the chaos engulfing the Dungeon, and acts mischievously to further increase the confusion

I could go on....

[tedric]

I love the idea of an orb run that is shorter, features the dungeon collapsing epically around you, and is of consistent difficulty.

However, I think it would be hard (if not impossible) to do this in a way that doesn't make the orb run significantly harder than it currently is. And given the effort and investment that it takes the average player with a spherical frictionless combo to reach the start of the orb run, I agree with everyone above that it would not feel fair to make that section of the game significantly harder...at least, not without other large changes to the game. Like shortening the 3-rune game so that a more intense/time-consuming orb run is seen as the start of the game's climax rather than its functional/probable end: If it's easier/faster to reach the orb, you can get away with making the remainder of the game a much more punishing experience that players are expected to fail at a whole bunch. Right now that's how most of pre-orbrun Crawl is anyway, but there's a psychological balancing act that is currently skewed towards "I got the orb, the game better not fuck me over before it's official" instead of "I got the orb, now the REAL fun starts."

[archaeo]

Why wouldn't a harder orb run be fair? What's the point of some (mostly) valedictory jaunt, dangling worthlessly off of the end of the real game?

These are more or less rhetorical questions, though, since you (and duvessa, upthread) have a point. But I don't think you necessarily have to make the endgame significantly more difficult in order to make the ascension into a flavorful, interesting event rather than a chore. Rather than try to eliminate duvessa's problem, it seems like you could double down, make it into a feature rather than a bug: just make the orb run incredibly chaotic, as you try to scramble out of the dungeon as it collapses around you, magic and all. It's a chaos that should probably be tilted in the player's favor, but I don't really see why crawl shouldn't keep ratcheting up the tension all the way to the finish.

[Sar]

is inherently relevant to how Crawl could play

god I hope not

[bananaken]

The orb run sits in a ok spot right now, but it definitely has room for improvement, I think.

As previously mentioned, the orb run could scale somehow with amount of runes. (I'm curious though: would this be something that a spoiled player could abuse and thus not be considered?)

Some ideas:

• Shorten orb run (make it equivalent to visiting an average branch), generate new levels upon exiting Zot:5 to minimize the benefits of digging shorter routes
  Since it'll be a new, unexplored level while under the negative effects of the orb, the orb could mysteriously allow you to sense the exit tiles to compensate.
  In addition, newly generated levels could be tied thematically to which runes you have. It would be kind of unfair to get a slime pits themed floor if your 3-rune character was only equipped for Vaults, Spider and Abyss, for example.
• Spawn rate and number could be tied to total amount of runes
• After certain number of runes, "unlock" additional effects or even scenarios.
  Maybe do something special for the equivalent of D:1 if you have 15 runes

Having a short but intense orb run sounds cool, but I can see how people would object to the idea. In any case, a shorter orb run, period, would also be nice.

[1010011010]

Picking up the (un-apportatable) orb, walls close around you and a staircase down (or portal) appears nearby which makes a new level mostly linear level which ends in a dungeon exit.
What's on the level doesn't matter too much but what people see on an orb run would be easier to tailor and more consistent.

This is better than the current state because your now running through unknown territory rather than backtracking through already cleared area, so it's a bit more fresh in that sense. It also discourages things like digging levels to create optimal paths.
Compared to the leave Zot and win, It's a bit more intuitive then suddenly winning because you made it to the depths.

[wheals]

is inherently relevant to how Crawl could play

god I hope not

Well, NetHack has also been inherently relevant to how Crawl could play. That doesn't necessarily mean it's a font of good design decisions.

[Sar]

Brogue does have some pretty good design decisions though. I still wouldn't want Crawl to play like Brogue.

[dpeg]

The real question is what you want to achieve with the orb run: should it be a leisurely stroll home with the orb (as it is sort of now in Crawl), or should it be the endgame (as it is in Nethack)? Since Crawl's (standard game) end battle is supposed to take place in Zot:5, the orb run is more a flavour device to close the story: you have the mcguffin, locals are not happy about it, you win anyway.

I think it's cool that sometimes the orb run spawns catch a character barehanded, but if the goal is a tighter orb run, then that'd certainly need further changes. I don't think that's necessary. (It would definitely be possible to work around players pre-digging shortcuts etc. but I'd only start thinking about that if forced to, not preemptively.)

Why does a game need a "leisurely stroll home" though?

It doesn't need to, of course.

I think it's crucial to understand that Crawl is played by many, and with different backgrounds: if you have wins in the dozens, the orb run might easily bore you. (But we'd hope that then you're in position to make it quick, interface and tactics.) However, for a new player, the orb run finishes the game's basic story: enter dungeon, pursuit orb, leave dungeon. Gameplay-wise, that's not crucial at all. But I think ending the story where it starts is very pleasing. Also consider that many players (even winners) don't set foot into Pan: so sending them a Pan lord or two is cool and interesting.

I think it'd be better if the orb run was tighter, ideally with smaller, fewer, more dramatic levels on the way back up. I'll cheerfully concede that it isn't "necessary," dpeg, but the status quo results in a situation where the game's easiest section is also its last one. I don't think that's good design.

Also, for what it's worth, as a "flavour device," the orb run has only the tiniest soupçon of flavour. If the orb run had a color, it'd be beige. If it were food, it would be unseasoned oatmeal, prepared with water by an old sad man. All I can tell you is that a) the orb makes pretty purple light around you and b) the Lords of Pan, who I know nothing about except for their job title and place of residence, are annoyed you took the orb, even though none of them tried to stop you beforehand.

I just don't think the orb run is important enough to warrant all these big words Crawl has much graver problems, the orb run is quick, people sometimes die there. That's enough for me, for now. If someone has a cool idea for the orb run, we'll certainly listen, but I don't think it's broken.

[dpeg]

The real question is what you want to achieve with the orb run: should it be a leisurely stroll home with the orb (as it is sort of now in Crawl), or should it be the endgame (as it is in Nethack)?

I kind of feel like Crawl is in a sour spot with regards to these two options, now. It's kind of a leisurely stroll up to the surface -- except you get a bunch of monsters spawning who people who haven't done extended will never have met before, and may cast spells they've never seen. It's the one place in a 3-rune game where the correct option is "fight no monsters." As duvessa points out, it messes with your escape options in new, unique ways. And I agree with him: the orb run might not be the best place to introduce that content and concept to players. Dying to Cerebov on a first orb grab would, I think, be pretty frustrating -- especially when it's not inherently obvious that you're just not supposed to fight him.

All of this is true, but someone who's running home with her first orb is not entirely a newbie anymore

Also, can you really get Cerebov without having visited his level first? The bit about "fight no monsters" should be familiar from other places, e.g. the Abyss. And finally, a first-time winner will expect completely new-to-her monsters to mean trouble.
Fun fact: the orb run used to be a leisurely stroll (you just went up). Needless to say, there were complaints

One other option might be to have the difficulty of the orb run scale with the number of runes you have. Three runes? You pretty much get to walk up to the surface. Maybe you get some top-tier spawns of the denizens of D, U, V, and your S rune. 15 runes? You see the demons, abyss, maybe the remains of Slime. The whole works.

I like that idea a lot. We tinkered with making runes matter in Zot:5, but that's futile, because players could just pick up their runes afterwards. Using rune count during the orb run sounds very good to me!

[archaeo]

It doesn't need to, of course.

I think it's crucial to understand that Crawl is played by many, and with different backgrounds: if you have wins in the dozens, the orb run might easily bore you. (But we'd hope that then you're in position to make it quick, interface and tactics.) However, for a new player, the orb run finishes the game's basic story: enter dungeon, pursuit orb, leave dungeon. Gameplay-wise, that's not crucial at all. But I think ending the story where it starts is very pleasing. Also consider that many players (even winners) don't set foot into Pan: so sending them a Pan lord or two is cool and interesting.

I don't find any of these defenses particularly compelling, frankly.

Yes, the orb run is interesting to the first-time winner. When the game is so clearly designed around replayability, however, with its huge variety of species, backgrounds, gods, and playstyles, why would you accept a game structure that makes replaying the game tedious? And wouldn't a new player find a more interesting orb run just as delightful, if not moreso, than the status quo? I respect the fact that crawl needs to be a game for everybody, including new players, but accepting the current orb run just because new players don't know how empty and non-threatening it is while experienced players can just "make it quick" seems silly.

As for your narrative argument, while some of the more extreme proposals suggest ending the game at Z:1 or something, I think that's just in effect. It's a magical dungeon; there's no reason that the orb run shouldn't end on "D:1," even if you take a shorter path to get there through the abyss or pan or whatever. The other proposals in this thread would only serve to strengthen those narrative elements, in my view.

I just don't think the orb run is important enough to warrant all these big words Crawl has much graver problems, the orb run is quick, people sometimes die there. That's enough for me, for now. If someone has a cool idea for the orb run, we'll certainly listen, but I don't think it's broken.

I see a whole boatload of cool ideas up above, personally. And, in the spirit of avoiding big words, I'll say it plainly: it's silly to think that the ending of the game is unimportant or deserving of less attention.

Of course, I don't think the orb run's "broken," either. I just think it's not very good, and it could be made better. I appreciate the fact that we have volunteer devs and that GDD is more of a containment pit than a serious design forum, however, so I'll leave it at that.

[njvack]

Also, can you really get Cerebov without having visited his level first? The bit about "fight no monsters" should be familiar from other places, e.g. the Abyss.

I thought you could, but I guess not? Anyhow, you can get a functionally very similar Pan lord.

Until I had a few wins under my belt and was picking up advice from Tavern, my Abyss strategy was "die unless I'm fast enough to outrun everything, strong enough to kill most things, or very lucky." Even post-Abyss-reform, an endgame character can fight through Abyss:1 pretty safely, I think; it's not inherently clear that you should not do so.

I guess what I'm really saying is that if this is a strategy players should learn, it might make sense to introduce it on the critical path to three runes (or at least something players will often see pretty early) and hint at it more strongly. I wonder if some kind of "press your luck" kind of portal vault could teach this...? Like, there's a horde of monsters you won't be able to reasonably fight chasing you, and loot off to the sides, and the trick is to get as much loot as you can before you get overwhelmed...

But this becomes OT.

[dowan]

I don't mind the idea of changing the orb run, or making it more meaningful, I'm just opposed to it having wildly different gameplay than the rest of crawl.

Having to get through new levels, while panlords are dropped randomly on my head, is nothing like the rest of crawl. I wouldn't play that game, there's not much in the way of tactics or strategy anymore, so why would you stick that game on the end of dungeon crawl?

Now, if you want to abandon the idea of having panlords dropped on your head, and just have the orb run be a couple of actual floors that are played more or less like the rest of dungeon crawl, that might be an interesting idea. But at that point it doesn't really make much difference between those floors existing before or after one picks up the orb, since it's not like the orb gives you any special powers to help you beat this new branch.

[bananaken]

Having to get through new levels, while panlords are dropped randomly on my head, is nothing like the rest of crawl. I wouldn't play that game, there's not much in the way of tactics or strategy anymore, so why would you stick that game on the end of dungeon crawl?

Literally no one wants this to happen, including people who are suggesting changes that are drastically different. Plus, I thought the whole point of a "Orb Run Reform" thread is to explore ideas that are potentially (unsurprisingly) nothing like crawl's current orb run. I don't see what the concern is other than incomplete and/or unpolished ideas making it into trunk. It's a valid concern, but it feels like this attitude right off the bat discourages new ideas.

Now, if you want to abandon the idea of having panlords dropped on your head, and just have the orb run be a couple of actual floors that are played more or less like the rest of dungeon crawl, that might be an interesting idea. But at that point it doesn't really make much difference between those floors existing before or after one picks up the orb, since it's not like the orb gives you any special powers to help you beat this new branch.

A good starting point would be to determine what the devs want. Normally crawl philosophy at least gives you a ballpark figure on what will/will not see the light of day, but the orb run is still pretty unique. Is it a design goal for Crawl that the orb doesn't give you powers? It certainly gives you plenty of debuffs. I'd like this to be more clear, if at all possible.

[dpeg]

Okay, got a bit more time now, so I can reply more properly:

Archaeo: While Nethack has a proper endgame (the last five levels), this is preceded by a generally pretty boring run up to D:1 (mysterious force anyone?)
Your proposal is actually interesting, I was just trying to hint at that before doing anything big about the orb run, one should discuss its scope altogether. Whatever that may be, I like the idea that carrying the orb modifies level layout, for various reasons: (1) it shows some more of the incredible power of the orb, mostly of the corrupting type (at least that's what we as orb stealing characters only ever see), (2) it could prevent player carefully pre-digging paths, (3) it can help create more interesting situations by taking away tunnels when you want them.

I don't really buy the argument about repetition -- an activity that you're going to carry out at most once per game does not really fall under the tedious activities we relentlessly try to purge from the game. I know that some of you are bothered by doing this game after game, but that's a kind of meta-game complaint. And I still don't think it takes a lot of time in any given game (i.e. no matter whether you're a fast or slow player).

As I said, I like nvjack's idea about using runes as a gauge for orb run resistance. One would still have to be clever to do this in a good idea (i.e. ideas welcome).

I don't buy the newbie & spoiler argument. As I hinted at, unspoiled players used to wonder why *nothing* happened, so there's less of a problem now.

On Crawl vs Brogue: Brogue is an excellent roguelike, and one can learn a lot from it. (And I am sure that Pender learned something from Crawl, too -- if only how not to do certain things.) However, the scopes between these games is so different, and it's good that the genre can cater for such different incarnations of the same core idea. (For example: Brogue did away with experience, puts a high emphasis on traps and secret doors and puzzles, has small levels and few monsters -- to name just some of the most glaring differences.) I mention it from time to time because I believe that some veteran Crawlers who seem to be very unhappy with some aspects of DCSS should enjoy Brogue (that game gives full information about damage and monsters, for example, and many more fights are meaningful than in Crawl).

[archaeo]

Thanks for going into more depth, dpeg.

I don't really buy the argument about repetition -- an activity that you're going to carry out at most once per game does not really fall under the tedious activities we relentlessly try to purge from the game. I know that some of you are bothered by doing this game after game, but that's a kind of meta-game complaint.

I'll admit that "tedious" was probably the wrong word. But that said, the orb run is one of the very few parts of crawl that feels virtually identical no matter how you've played the game up until that point. In a game that succeeds in large part by frequently providing novel experiences, it's a little unfortunate that its climax often plays out the same way in every game, with minor variation in panlord spawns.

In any case, reforming the orb run seems like something that could make the game more fun for experienced players and new players alike, if a newly designed orb run managed to be a fun part of the game.

I don't mind the idea of changing the orb run, or making it more meaningful, I'm just opposed to it having wildly different gameplay than the rest of crawl.

Having to get through new levels, while panlords are dropped randomly on my head, is nothing like the rest of crawl. I wouldn't play that game, there's not much in the way of tactics or strategy anymore, so why would you stick that game on the end of dungeon crawl?

If anything, generating new levels for the orb run would be far more like the rest of crawl than the current orb run, which really is "wildly different gameplay than the rest of crawl." It just doesn't feel wildly different because, you know, it's how the game's been for as long as most of us have been playing it.

I'm also not sure how any of the proposals brought up so far would remove "tactics or strategy" at all; if anything, it would vastly expand the necessary tactical and strategic skills you'd have to deploy. Right now, the orb run has incredibly shallow examples of both.

[dowan]

I totally agree, the only reason the current orb run is palatable is because it's so easy, it doesn't really matter that tactics and strategy were thrown out the window. If the current orb run ended at Z1, it would be just fine with me.

Maybe I misunderstood the initial proposal, which I read as "Keep the current orb run mechanics(airdropped panlords and such), except you also have to get through newly generated levels. What strategy is there for such an orb run? Make sure to have enough magic mapping before you grab the orb? Make sure your character is just really really strong? What tactics are there? Run into unexplored territory from everything until you get cornered, then teleport and try again? Just be able to kill everything?

As I said, if that's not what your proposal actually is, then I misunderstood, but if you're just suggesting new levels you have to do with a stealth malus and -ctele, you're just adding more to a game that seems to be considered too long already.

[advil]

I have tended to find the orb run uninteresting in only three cases: (i) I'm playing a very strong character (MiFi of Oka or whatever) that is overpowered relative to the number of runes they are at, (ii) I'm playing a character who has gone into extended and gotten a power boost from that, and (iii) random chance means that nothing too dangerous spawns or at least ends in my LOS. Otherwise, I would say that I've actually found it fairly interesting in most cases (at ~25 wins, so not a lot, but something, plus a fair amount of orb run spectating with players I know). My experience is that I usually get thrown at least a few interesting tactical situations where I have freedom to employ any trick I have left to get off the level. To (i) the solution is not really to change the orb run, but play more interesting characters, IMO. To (ii), I don't know that there's much of a solution. To (iii) it seems to me like the most obvious solution involves fairly subtle tweaking of the orb run spawn procedures, which is a bit boring, but there you are.

While I do think it might be kind of neat flavor-wise to add to the set of things that can happen on the orb run with corruption-like effects (possibly a better model than qaz lava), this seems like it shouldn't come at the cost of making the orb run much longer, or spawning a lot more monsters to make you fight more of them, or adding re-exploration back into the mix. If you want to see what a long orb run where you have to fight lots of things is like, play linesprint. As much as I like linesprint, I find its orb run extremely painful. Please don't do that to the main game.

[dpeg]

Okay, this is easier than the luring topic currently discussed in the other thread, so I'll say something here

I believe one could achieve something quickly and easily with these four little steps:

1. Runes determine orb run resistance
In particular, picking up a rune during the orb run increases difficulty at once. Perhaps more than its fair share, to prevent players from cleverly picking up Lair rune late. (It'd probably be a bad idea anyway.)
With three runes, the orb run should be like now, perhaps even easier (because of other changes below). I like it to frighten hapless players a bit, but chances of dying are slim. Our choice to pick threat levels for 15 runes.

2. Orb run spawns always know where the player is on a level.

3. Pan lords left on a level have a chance to turn up on another level (as an additional spawn, not part of the regular orb run spawning).
This means that there is an actual incentive to kill those pan lords -- might be better than meeting them all on D:1.
Fighting could enforced by giving some relevant monsters the warden gimmick (orb guardians spring to mind).

4. Orb corrupts environment
Could take a cue from abyss or Qazlal. This is mostly cosmetic but should in particular create regularly create open space around the player.

Note: doing any/all of these will lead to additional casualties, some angry players, subsequent "this is not Crawl anymore" etc., especially as it'll take a bit to find a sweet spot for the threat/runes function. I would find it fun, but then again, I don't mind losing. Also, as a developer I like players dying.

[archaeo]

*snip*

I like number 4 there! The rest seem like the current orb run, only moreso, which doesn't seem like a winning strategy to me.

I'm not really sure there's a "quick and easy" way to improve the orb run, tbh. It seems like one of those problems that could really benefit from a more substantive paradigm shift, as unpopular a proposition as that's likely to be.

[mps]

With number 4, you'd want to be careful that this can't be exploited to kill walls in a way that would help the player.

Panlords with vault warden lock-down would be a good idea. The spawns could be improved by concentrating them along the shortest path to the upstairs. Similarly, if an abyss corruption effect were added, you'd want the weirdness to appear on the path to the stairs to force the player to go through or around.

[Siegurt]

I would make orb corruption only generate walls not remove them, and have it generate walls in its purple aura area, and I would color the walls purple.

Perhaps instead of walls, it could make destroyable "crystals" (like salt/ice pillars) that can be destroyed with damage, perhaps they can shatter very loudly when destroyed to alert guardians to you.

[Sandman25]

3. Pan lords left on a level have a chance to turn up on another level (as an additional spawn, not part of the regular orb run spawning).
This means that there is an actual incentive to kill those pan lords -- might be better than meeting them all on D:1.

Some panlords are extremely hard (and probably stupid) to fight (summon eyeballs with irresistible paralysis, chaos weapon with irresistible paralysis, glaciate, firestorm, tornado, singularity?). Will they be nerfed (at least for orb run) somewhat or are unavoidable deaths desirable during orb run?

[dowan]

How exactly do I play intelligently in a game where my actions have no effect on whether monsters can find me or not, and I cannot escape said enemies? Is the orb run intended to just be a crapshoot where I hope the RNG is kind enough not to just murder me, or is the idea that I must go and grind in the abyss after clearing zot 5 but before grabbing the orb, so I'm powerful enough to just kill all this crap during the orb run?

To be honest, I think what this thread really shows is the current orb run is almost pointless, and that's a good thing. The best solution is probably just to make you get the orb out of zot5, and end the game there.

If we want to add new branches with unique mechanics, lets just do that, rather than tacking them onto this weird part at the end of the game.

[tasonir]

Ignoring the impossible edge case where you somehow swagjack his rune without even seeing him, Cerebov is never introduced on the orb run.

Huh, I thought that got changed.

Imho you're basically correct, you just need to say Seraph instead of Cerebov. Seraph is easily as hard as the other unique pan lords, and can spawn in the orb run. I'm also especially bitter because my last orb run died to Seraph Seraph himself isn't that strong, but he summons angels who can't be abjured and who smite, so you can easily get swarmed by monsters who can hit you with unresistable damage from anywhere in your LOS.

[archaeo]

For what it's worth, I don't think the orb run needs to become dramatically more dangerous to be interesting, and if you added a bunch of the proposals talked about, tweaking the orb spawn rates and easing back on the panlord spam would probably be a fine idea. That said,

How exactly do I play intelligently in a game where my actions have no effect on whether monsters can find me or not, and I cannot escape said enemies? Is the orb run intended to just be a crapshoot where I hope the RNG is kind enough not to just murder me, or is the idea that I must go and grind in the abyss after clearing zot 5 but before grabbing the orb, so I'm powerful enough to just kill all this crap during the orb run?

Why should the game stop trying to kill you a few hundred turns before the end?

But whatever, rhetorical question; I basically agree that a couple of dpeg's ideas go too far toward just bumping up the difficulty without making it any more interesting, but I don't think anyone really wants to make the orb run obnoxious or an awful RNG screw or a reason your character needs to be way more powerful than it was when you beat Zot:5.

The whole point of this discussion is finding a way to make the orb run more fun. Let's not clutch our pearls over imaginary difficulty spikes when it's pretty clear there's no consensus to change anything at all yet.

[tasonir]

The whole point of this discussion is finding a way to make the orb run more fun. Let's not clutch our pearls over imaginary difficulty spikes when it's pretty clear there's no consensus to change anything at all yet.

If that's the goal, then I'd definitely say that "the dungeon is falling apart and you are forced to take an escape tunnel to the top asap" would be the way to go. Have the escape tunnel always be 5-6 spaces wide, have stairs on the far ends, and be crawling with a lot of monsters. Zot:5 is mostly about fighting a few very powerful minions, so I'd see the escape tunnel as more of an abyss but without the ability to turn around and hide from all of the spawns, which is the main flaw of the abyss. Here, you have to go forward. I'd say around 3-5 floors or so would be a good length, you aren't required to go up the 25 or so floors to the surface.

Two issues: 1) when/where do you get into the escape tunnel? I'd say make it open up under the orb, and let the player step into it. You could also just teleport the player there on pickup of the orb. The problem is now it's somewhat easier (too easy) to ninja the orb, as you escape zot:5 the turn you pick up the orb, or the turn after. Not ideal, but probably a minor problem.

2) You can no longer pick up the orb and then go run Tomb for fun.

[ajon]

Make the tunnel optional. Can run the whole dungeon. Longer, less going on. Or you can try the tunnel which is shorter and possibly more dangerous.

[xentronium]

2) You can no longer pick up the orb and then go run Tomb for fun.

I've tried this twice...the first time I was forced to back off because it felt too dangerous and the second time I died on W:1.
Maybe the third time will be a success :/

[archaeo]

2) You can no longer pick up the orb and then go run Tomb for fun.

No reason the orb run couldn't include portals to whichever branches you'd like. I'm not totally sold on the tunnel idea -- I prefer the idea of more varied terrain instead of a straight sprint back to the entrance -- but it seems totally possible to keep some of the goofy challenges available even if you did do something like that.