Orb Run Reform

[ajon]

Transports you to some ... other place? with one floor representing every rune you had when you picked up the orb. So 3 runer with the two lair brnaches and vaults, would have 3 floors or some type based on those to get out. 15 runes would be 15 floors.

[tasonir]

True, if the stairs to the escape tunnel open after you pick up the orb, then it can be optional to enter it. Shorter run which may be more difficult, or the long walk home which is easier but possibly more random. And then you could still run Tomb with the orb, if you wanted...

[Quazifuji]

I feel like part of the issue with the Orb run is simply that DCSS is at its best when you're motivated to clear areas. Having limited resources helps too. So much of the skill of DCSS is positioning, approaching fights properly and making use of the environment to ensure fights happen on your own terms, and careful management of limited resources. When your goal is to just get to the exit as fast as possible, and you know that you're about to win, a lot of these things go out the window, because your priority is to avoid fights as much as possible and you can freely burn through all of your consumables to do so.

Ignoring the impossible edge case where you somehow swagjack his rune without even seeing him, Cerebov is never introduced on the orb run.

Not impossible, I have done this (cTele to a square next to the rune, grab it and cTele out without ever waking up any of Cerebov's minions, let alone Cerebov himself).

[tedric]

So much of the skill of DCSS is positioning, approaching fights properly and making use of the environment to ensure fights happen on your own terms, and careful management of limited resources. When your goal is to just get to the exit as fast as possible, and you know that you're about to win, a lot of these things go out the window, because your priority is to avoid fights as much as possible and you can freely burn through all of your consumables to do so.

That's exactly what I like about the orb run, on the occasions when the RNG actually gives me a challenge. I like the feeling that comes when there's no retreat and no safe place to duck into, and the end is so near in sight that you don't have any reason to feel conflicted about using up your options. The game is pulling out all the stops, and so am I -- when it comes together, it feels epic.

Re: escape tunnel, I would rather go through an abbreviated and somewhat mixed-up version of the dungeon as it collapses enthusiastically around me. The point would not be to increase difficulty, but to make the orb run feel epic and climactic and awesome. Supposing the Orb's corruptive influence is mucking up the overall structure of the dungeon as well as the immediate terrain around the player, you could basically shuffle together ~10 randomly selected smallish floors or collections of vaults from various areas of the game. I'd like to see lots of chaotic terrain-altering effects of the types mentioned above, and also lots of flavorful (as in non-aggressive) monster activity -- random neutral humanoids stumbling around confused/blinded/slowed near piles of fallen rocks, Lair-esque vaults that suddenly erupt into flame and magma pools while packs of sticky-flamed sheep scatter in all directions, a water vault in which a frenzied kraken is wreaking havoc among a battalion of merfolk, and so on. There'd be a lot of scripting and animations built into these things, with the idea that these monsters don't really care about you anymore -- they've got new problems to deal with. You can get involved if you want and you might be hit by collateral damage, but really these vaults are just there for show and to provide some interesting obstacles while you fend off the Orb spawns, which remain hostile. Again, it's not about increased difficulty as much as ensuring that every game gives you the feeling that grabbing the Orb was a BIG FRAKKING DEAL and that you should be proud of surviving the ridiculous consequences. Epic.

[chequers]

I feel like the spawn rate is a little low on the Orb run. It's quite common to get through most floors without seeing more than a 2 and an orb guardian or similar.

Two specific ideas:
1. When going upstairs occasionally spawn an ambush of zot:5 monsters or something
2. More chaff everywhere would slow me down, increasing the danger of pan lords that do appear.

[archaeo]

The problem with just adding more chaff to the orb run is that, at that point, chaff doesn't really matter. If you're playing the game normally, the levels are all explored, and you're likely to have the full suite of escape options. If anything, adding chaff just makes things easier, as being surrounded by other (lesser) enemies makes it harder for panlords/1s to use some of their most dangerous abilities, singularity, summon eyeballs, and silence excluded.

While what tedric talks about would be way more difficult to implement than simply tweaking the spawn rate on the orb run, it's more the thing I had in mind when I started this topic, and it's the kind of change I'd prefer to see.

[starhawk]

What's the point of some (mostly) valedictory jaunt, dangling worthlessly off of the end of the real game?

I've only won the game once, and I still remember the boundless, bubbling JOY of the orb run. (I never saw any pan lords; didn't even know at the time that they might appear.) I was hustling through the levels with every teleport, digging wand, haste buff, etc that I could employ with a maniacal grin on my face, thinking "I did it! I did it! WHEEEEEEEEEE!" It definitely extended the excitement and fun.

The 'valedictory jaunt' thus might have at least a little meaning for those of us who aren't masters of the game. (And probably ensures I will never win again.)

[and into]

That's exactly what I like about the orb run, on the occasions when the RNG actually gives me a challenge. I like the feeling that comes when there's no retreat and no safe place to duck into, and the end is so near in sight that you don't have any reason to feel conflicted about using up your options. The game is pulling out all the stops, and so am I -- when it comes together, it feels epic.

I've had some exciting orb runs, too, but I also feel the rush you are describing, much more consistently, when I am doing Zot 5 and trying to get the orb in the first place. The orb run has pretty high extremes, but on average it is much less dangerous than the last level of Zot. Making the orb run consistently feel like a climax of difficulty, rather than an anti-climax, in comparison to Zot, would require making the run significantly more dangerous. (I honestly see no other way; I have found Zot to be a rough place even for some of my 15 rune characters.)

If the orb run becomes significantly more dangerous while still being as chaotic as it is (with the game play implications that dowan and Quazifuji describe), I expect the run would come to feel unfair and "cheap" compared to the sort of challenge that Crawl provides up to that point. That is to say, different games have different "philosophies" about what constitutes a fair obstacle or challenge (compare DCSS to Nethack), but pronounced and significant inconsistencies will nearly always be experienced as "unfair."


EDIT:
On the other hand, adding another level after Zot—some kind of tunnel you have to go through or something—just throws another branch (even if a short branch) into the mandatory portion of the game. And designing an additional level that is as difficult and well-designed as Zot 5 would not be easy. Seriously Zot 5 is an excellent final level, why would we make a new final level?

So yeah, I am trying to keep an open mind, but I have a hard time seeing the orb run becoming something entirely different. I don't feel strongly that it should be removed; it reminds me of escaping the planet in Super Metroid, but with a greater chance of things going awry at the last second.

[Sar]

I don't mind orb run and I would be sad to see it go (not like that means anything), however I do like the proposal that was made in the first post of this thread because I like flashy stuff. I don't think it would increase difficulty significantly (that would probably be undesirable anyway) but it could be a fun feature. Of course, it's all about coding it.

[and into]

I don't mind orb run and I would be sad to see it go (not like that means anything), however I do like the proposal that was made in the first post of this thread because I like flashy stuff. I don't think it would increase difficulty significantly (that would probably be undesirable anyway) but it could be a fun feature. Of course, it's all about coding it.

I wouldn't mind some other primarily cosmetic features. If they could also serve to ruin any "pre-digging" strategies for the orb run (preferably without penalizing those who do not conduct full exploration of all levels), that's even better.

[TeshiAlair]

Why not have the Orb Run scale with the number of runes you have?

[goldstarbrother]

I think the Orb of Zot is pretty boring as it is now, why not have some level corruption and harder spawns but also have the orb give you some extra powers? I get that it's just supposed to be some generic powerful thing that you're trying to get, but why not have that be displayed in game somehow? I think an additional attack ability would be kind of anticlimactic, so maybe a passive ability like a pulsating aura of power that has a chance of damaging enemies within a one tile radius? Or even better, the Orb itself doesn't do anything but the runes give thematic passive abilities when in the presence of the Orb. For example the Silver rune gives you a passive reflection ability (or something more Vaults related - maybe an equipment buff), the Barnacled Rune gives you the ability to walk on water and occasionally causes nearby tiles to turn to shallow/deep water, etc.

I like the idea of the Orb run going through a collapsing version of the dungeon, and I think the Orb and the Runes should be more than trophies. The difficulty of the Orb run should scale with how many runes you've collected, but collecting more runes will also give you more powers to combat the harder run (but a 3 rune run should always be easier than a 15 rune run).