Travler's Fire

[akira]

It's a spell suggestion!

Summoning/Fire: Level 5-6
Range 3

Summons a harmless fire at target location. While the player is next to the fire their health regeneration is increased slightly. If any chunks are dropped into the fire there is a %chance based on the players Fire skill to cook the food, or burn it to ash. Food can result in sausage/jerky/meat ration depending on margin of success.

We all know that Fire is great for killing things, but Fire also has no utility. Yes, I know this can break the food game, but if the numbers are tweaked right it could also be balanced and bring a new aspect of play into the game. ANd lets jsut say that the smell of cooking food should attract (a bunch of) monsters.

[Curio]

for one, how you explain regenerative abilities of a fire?
Also, cooking is in dev's "wont do" list.

[akira]

and death to that idea.. should have read the wont do list first... as for the regenerative effect "Nothing comforts the body and mind like a warm fire" for living foke at least.

[Regnix]

for one, how you explain regenerative abilities of a fire?

Cauterization?

[akira]

for one, how you explain regenerative abilities of a fire?

Cauterization?

this just gave me an idea.

Spell: Fire
Cauterize Level 6-7

Severs an unwanted mutation from the player at the cost of maximum HP.

[Roderic]

Give a man fire and he's warm for a day; set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life

[joellercoaster]

Heh.

[Zuboki]

I was mulling this idea around in my head today at work, and I came up with a couple tweaks that'd work nicely with this spell and make it something special for Fire users.

• (Wizardname)'s Invigorating Hearth (I'd suggest something that begins with H, like Hargoth. Likewise, Invigorating Hearth or just Hearth would work, but that's no fun)
• Level 5 Fire (No sense for it to require summoning; I think we need a pure fire spell around here anyway)
• Range 3, like Akira said. Creates a small campfire where placed. Smite targets. Lasts (2*Fire Magic Skill + 2d10) turns (If this is too large, halve it. You'd generally need Fire to be at least 8 or so if you want to cast a pure fire spell, so 18 to 36 turns would be alright for a new caster)
• Any natural creature within 2 tiles of the fire gets the 'Hearth' status for as long as they remain within 2 tiles. This increases the regenerative rate (though not by as much as most sources of regeneration). They are also considered to be under the effects of a weak Corona spell, making them slightly easier to hit and reducing their stealth (though not revealing invisible- that'd be too useful). "Hearth" status warms slowed coldblooded creatures, removing a slowed effect inflicted upon them (possibly by a weapon of freezing). It does not haste unslowed coldbloods, though
• If the player eats any kind of meat (rations, chunks, jerky, sausage) while under the Hearth status, it takes an extra turn but restores an additional 25% of the items satiation (Exact +% amount to be determined by balance).
• Contaminated chunks eaten under hearth status treat the consumer as if they had Saprovore 1- they can still sicken the consumer, but at a reduced chance. If they have Saprovore 1 or 2, treat it as Saprovore 2.
• Along with meat, chokos, snozzcumbers, and slices of pizza benefit from the Hearth.
• Some example message logs:
  
  • You roast the choko. You eat the roasted choko. The fire really brings out the flavour!
  • You roast the snozzcumber. You eat the roasted snozzcumber. It still tastes truly putrid.
  • You reheat the slice of pizza. You eat the reheated slice of pizza. Man, this is way better than eating it cold!
  • You heat the jerky over the flames. You eat the smoked jerky. The smoked jerky was delicious!
  • You heat the hobgoblin chunk. It looks a little safer to eat now. You eat the cooked hobgoblin chunk. The cooked hobgoblin chunk was delicious!
• As was suggested earlier, heating food has a (Small!) chance of drawing natural monsters to the area. It should only effect those already close by- maybe within ten tiles? They should wander over as if they heard a sound. The chance needs to be small- otherwise most players would just go upstairs to light a Hearth every time. Not the kind of behavior to encourage!
• Heating rotted, mutagenic, or HCl chunks has no effect (unless the consumer is already a saprovore, in which case rotted chunks are okay). Heating poisonous chunks does not remove poison.
• The Hearth extinguishes either when a monster or the player step on it (No damage unless rF-) or it's turn counter expires. Any ice effects that hit it also extinguish it. It leaves a scorched mark on the floor (which has no effect) and creates 2-4 small clouds of smoke. Allies will try to path around the hearth- enemies will not fear it.
• Tossing a book or scroll into it extends it for 2d3 turns. Not really needed, just flavourful. See also below.
• Lighting a Hearth next to a tree has a 1 in 27 chance per turn of starting a forest fire.

So what do you think? I feel this solves the problem of having cookable food by not taking up an inventory slot, as you're forced to eat it right after you cook it. It's the only spell in the game other than Necromutation that helps alleviate spell hunger problems, allowing its caster to use "nukes" a bit more often. It'd also be great for Hill Orcs to help heal their troops faster. It's basically the Fire Mage's utility spell- not a reason to pick up fire magic alone, but definitely helpful to an aspiring FE.

[RFHolloway]

That probably gives it the best shot it is going to get. I like the idea, but I don't give it much of a chance.

• As was suggested earlier, heating food has a (Small!) chance of drawing natural monsters to the area. It should only effect those already close by- maybe within ten tiles? They should wander over as if they heard a sound. The chance needs to be small- otherwise most players would just go upstairs to light a Hearth every time. Not the kind of behavior to encourage!
• Tossing a book or scroll into it extends it for 2d3 turns. Not really needed, just flavourful. See also below.

Comments on the points above - the first may be able to be handled by treating it as a source of noise and/or a reduction in stealth. For the second it might be nice to include clubs as well, although that may just be too much scumming. (perhaps a magic fire needs magic fuel - perhaps scrolls of random uselessness still trigger, perhaps scroll of immolation gives a big boost)

[Bim]

As much as it sounds like a good idea, this is one of the things that the devs go mental about and shout 'NO THIS IS NOT EVER HAPPENING, I AM NOT EXPLAINING SO DO NOT ASK.' and close the thread. Which is fair enough as the idea of heating food comes up every few weeks, although I'm still not sure why its so bad. It seems like a good idea in practise, but I suppose its the whole 'not doing grinding tasks for optimal play' thing, and although this doesn't realllly seem that grinding, for optimal play you wouldn't bother eating without heating, which makes it a no-brainer which is very much shunned.

All I know is, cooking food is DEFINITELY off the table. However, perhaps as a purely regenerative spell it could be useful, but again I can't see any reasons why you wouldn't do (again, no-brainer). This being said, perhaps the idea that your troops (and an enemies) could get healed from it would be interesting, or perhaps if it took a few turns (like passwall) to do, combined with some different effects could again be interesting. Perhaps if you re-think the idea without cooking and with some balancing downsides other than attracting creatures it could be good. How about if it was purely a defensive (no regen or anything) power, perhaps corona'ing enemies or making you resistant to status changes, but drew LOTS of creatures towards it? That'd get round the 'going upstairs' as there would be no point, with the trade off of a lot of creatures coming at once?

[KoboldLord]

As much as it sounds like a good idea, this is one of the things that the devs go mental about and shout 'NO THIS IS NOT EVER HAPPENING, I AM NOT EXPLAINING SO DO NOT ASK.' and close the thread.

Perhaps the devs wouldn't 'go mental' if people like yourself didn't start their posts with such an inflammatory tone? I mean, it sounds almost like you're intentionally trying to provoke them here.

Which is fair enough as the idea of heating food comes up every few weeks, although I'm still not sure why its so bad. It seems like a good idea in practise, but I suppose its the whole 'not doing grinding tasks for optimal play' thing, and although this doesn't realllly seem that grinding, for optimal play you wouldn't bother eating without heating, which makes it a no-brainer which is very much shunned.

It's probably because cooking food exists in certain other popular roguelikes, and it isn't difficult to predict what sort of impact it would have on Crawl because this ground is well and thoroughly trodden in roguelike design. Barring some exceptionally interesting brainstorm, the idea has already been rejected and there's no reason to rehash it again and again every time a new player wanders in from those other roguelikes.

It isn't like the 'will not do' list is truly not open to discussion. Several items on that list have shown up in one aspect or another of the game, such as felid lifesaving for example. Proposals that go against that list, however, need to be genuinely interesting or the people involved are just going to sound like another noise from the conga line of people who have already brought up an old and tired idea.

As far as this proposal goes, it is more interesting than most cooking proposals, but the benefits of the Hearth spell as presented tend to be painfully niche. Food-saving benefits like the fast-healing and extra nutrition from permafood are somewhat less useful when you have to take the food hit from casting a 5th-level spell to get them. By the time a 5th-level spell isn't a major nutrition hit, you will usually have access to several more cost-effective ways to accomplish that same goal. Most of the other effects are rather niche, and unlikely to be worth spending the spell slots and mp to get.

[Bim]

Oh I didn't mean to be inflammatory, it was just light hearted fun and pointing out that this does happen. I'm sorry if that's not acceptable, but I did also say that I understand why it happens and explained a reason. So it's not like I was saying 'god those developers are always destroying my hopes and dreams for no reason and they'll do it to you too because they hate everyone'. That would be inflammatory.

To be honest though, the 'will not do list' is pretty much not open for discussion, being a 'will not do list' not a 'don't think so list'. I'm sorry if that sounds inflammatory, but I really haven't seen, in my long time of lurking and posting, any reply to a 'will not do topic' other than a no and sometimes a reinstatement of why it can't happen. As you say though, a great idea will still be a great idea regardless, but I'm sure that most of the devs have good reasons/have thought of most of the possibilities people come out with on the will not do list. More than that, I don't think that the dev's should need to explain their decisions as they know the mechanics better than we do and they've heard it all before, plus they get special rights having made the game. Again, just light hearted fun for a fun game, no need to be inflamed by it.

Food-saving benefits like the fast-healing and extra nutrition from permafood are somewhat less useful when you have to take the food hit from casting a 5th-level spell to get them.

Agreed, although it would be nice to have a 'defensive' spell, I would prefer it having other benefits such as resistance to magic or something, a sort of 'last stand area' to which you could draw creatures too. Possibly would be a bit to open for abuse though and very hard to find a balance, as you could just set it up in an open space, wait, and then spam the area with clouds/summons when monsters turn up. I seem to remember totems have been discussed in a similar way before and were thought not to be a good idea? I don't know, as I say, I like the defensive spell, but think it needs another angle.

[Zuboki]

Proposals that go against that list, however, need to be genuinely interesting or the people involved are just going to sound like another noise from the conga line of people who have already brought up an old and tired idea.

As far as this proposal goes, it is more interesting than most cooking proposals, but the benefits of the Hearth spell as presented tend to be painfully niche. Food-saving benefits like the fast-healing and extra nutrition from permafood are somewhat less useful when you have to take the food hit from casting a 5th-level spell to get them. By the time a 5th-level spell isn't a major nutrition hit, you will usually have access to several more cost-effective ways to accomplish that same goal. Most of the other effects are rather niche, and unlikely to be worth spending the spell slots and mp to get.

That's why I was sure to detail the request. I have been through the brainstorming wiki, and have lurked about for a while, and I have a decent bit of experience with balance-related issues in other online game design forums (although I must say, roguelikes are a little new to me). I can see niche benefits, but not "painfully" so- It's not a spell you'd spam in combat, so you could cast it easily at Very Hungry or even Near Starving, since you can count on the boosted food effects to mitigate your new Starving status. As for level, I agree that it could as easily be Level 4, if for no other reason to remove the food cost. If the benefits are too small, it could be boosted to +50%. I find that a Fire Elementalist is very likely to be a conjurer (duh) and likely to rely on Bolt of Fire even before he has the food cost managable. This spell would allow some leeway with that. As I said before, I'd love this spell for Hill Orcs (Low spellcasting leads to high hunger, and ally healing would be worth the spell slots), as well as any other fast-hungering caster of fire spells.

I'm really of the opinion that if something's not good, we can make it good. Right now, the Fire school really needs utility spells. Not every character has to be optimized for or take the spell, and by the design goals it should be a choice with opportunity costs. I'd just ask you not to dismiss this idea as a tired "wouldn't it be cool if ____ like you can in ____", because it's most assuredly not being proposed as that.

I thank you for your time and feedback.

[KoboldLord]

Part of the problem is that the difference between no spell hunger and crippling spell hunger is whether you eat one yak chunk or three after the battle. Extras get thrown away, or zombified if that's your thing. If yak chunks give +50% nutrition, then you still eat one yak chunk in the first case and two in the second, throwing away any extras. Eating permafood is a problem to avoid if feasible, so you're only going to use a spell to get a better effect from permafood a few times during the course of a 3-Rune game. Probably a couple battles that went poorly (but not too poorly, since you won't be using a campfire in combat) against elephants in Lair, and then a couple times while clearing Crypt. What are you giving up in order to have the spell slots for this campfire that you use a half dozen times before Zot? Flight? Regeneration? Swiftness and Blink? Sticky Flame?

I think this would be a useful and interesting spell for a tabletop RPG campaign that I play with friends, but in Crawl I'm a horrible Xom-like entity forcing my little slave into a dank hole in the ground to desperately fight monsters for survival and probably die amusingly. The comfort of my little slave doesn't have much meaning to me, and I'm not about to let it spend five spell slots to get extra nutrition from meat rations when I can force it to eat cockroaches instead.

The fast healing bit would probably be more useful, but it also steps on the toes of Elyvilon and the necromancy skill which is also a bit of a touchy subject.

Basically, I like the idea and the flavor, but it does not yet pass the 'Can I imagine a situation where I'd want to use this in an actual game?' test. Maybe it would be better as an evokable item, which could be brought into the parts of the game where it would be useful without permanently using up any long-term resources?

[Zuboki]

Part of the problem is that the difference between no spell hunger and crippling spell hunger is whether you eat one yak chunk or three after the battle. Extras get thrown away, or zombified if that's your thing. If yak chunks give +50% nutrition, then you still eat one yak chunk in the first case and two in the second, throwing away any extras. Eating permafood is a problem to avoid if feasible, so you're only going to use a spell to get a better effect from permafood a few times during the course of a 3-Rune game. Probably a couple battles that went poorly (but not too poorly, since you won't be using a campfire in combat) against elephants in Lair, and then a couple times while clearing Crypt. What are you giving up in order to have the spell slots for this campfire that you use a half dozen times before Zot? Flight? Regeneration? Swiftness and Blink? Sticky Flame?

I think this would be a useful and interesting spell for a tabletop RPG campaign that I play with friends, but in Crawl I'm a horrible Xom-like entity forcing my little slave into a dank hole in the ground to desperately fight monsters for survival and probably die amusingly. The comfort of my little slave doesn't have much meaning to me, and I'm not about to let it spend five spell slots to get extra nutrition from meat rations when I can force it to eat cockroaches instead.

The fast healing bit would probably be more useful, but it also steps on the toes of Elyvilon and the necromancy skill which is also a bit of a touchy subject.

Basically, I like the idea and the flavor, but it does not yet pass the 'Can I imagine a situation where I'd want to use this in an actual game?' test. Maybe it would be better as an evokable item, which could be brought into the parts of the game where it would be useful without permanently using up any long-term resources?

Again, I'm not really seeing it as a "default caster" spell. It doesn't have to compete with the likes of Charms and Air. It's more for early to mid game casters who are already pursuing Fire Magic anyway. If there are alternatives to your character and your situation that you consider better, by all means use them. A new spell does not have to be the only answer for all people who use it, and quite frankly, even in it's current interpretation, I don't see how it's any less that Leda's Liquifaction, Passage of Globuria, Passwall, or Petrify (I know these all have their uses- pointing these out is not a proper rebuttal). All of these spells are supportive in nature and aren't always cast even once a dungeon level.

Finally, sometimes non-permafood is a more limited resource- only a few necromancer chunks in the crypt, for example. Hearth would be excellent for decreasing sickness chances and stretching out an already limited food supply (as well as allowing the user to carry less permafood- although that's not a problem with the abundance thereof). As for any other problems you discover- feel free to offer your own solutions, as well- this game is in group development, after all. If you really, really just don't like it because of your playstyle or views toward how DCSS should be, then don't worry to respond- you've said quite enough already.

Thank you once again for your feedback.

[Bim]

As I've said, I think you can pretty much count out the food aspect of it ever coming about. However, a 'defensive' fire spell, like (pass wall for earth) could be interesting and is worth pursuing, but not in its current form, and certainly nothing to do with cooking. Your arguments however come from the 'one more spell won't hurt' category, which although I partially don't have a problem with and feel that more spells is good (especially for areas that don't have as many spells by volume, poison or earth magic for instance) I don't think fire magic is one of those schools. You already have ring of flames and conjure flame as a defensive spell, but fire magic, by nature, is primarily offensive. If you want defensive spells, then you branch out to charms or earth magic. Saying 'well why not have another fire spell?' isn't a good argument and neither is saying that other spells are equally unimportant, especially when fire magic already has quite a good mix.

I do agree with you that more defensive spells outside of charms should be implement, as many (like poison again) have no real defensive usage and are all about fire power. Perhaps just drop the food aspect and try and come up with a more tactical fire spell?

If you really, really just don't like it because of your playstyle or views toward how DCSS should be, then don't worry to respond- you've said quite enough already.

-This is quite inflammatory.

[mageykun]

Mod-speak:

Please stop arguing with one another what is and is not inflammatory. It doesn't help discussion and that's what mods are for. If you have a problem with a post, please just use the report button.

...and for the record, I don't think I've ever seen a dev go mental and lock a thread for an out of hand suggestion. Heck, most the game devs aren't moderators, so they can't! And as far as these things go, the members of your local mod-militia tend to be pretty stable when making rebukes.

On topic:

The problem with this kind of spell (the hunger aspect at least) is it isn't tactical. You never use it in the heat of battle, you always use it in a safe situation, and the decision to use it is not an interesting one. This alone is kind of a death knell. We've axed many spells for this reason, heck, the entire school of Divination was removed for this reason. Being non-tactical is almost assuredly what got cooking placed on the list of things that won't be done in the first place.

The problem with non-tactical things is they either aren't useful enough (as koboldlord described) for their cost, in which case they're not used, or worse, they are worth the cost and become a no brainier that everyone uses.

The idea of a multicast buff on allies is an interesting one though. I've always felt the ally game needed a few more options to make it interesting- if you could buff them you could almost play a bard like role, hiding behind and buffing the rest of the party. On the other hand, summoners may not need the buff.

[galehar]

I'm not even sure we need utility spells in the fire school. It's good that some schools are one-dimensional. If they all provide a variety of effects, then you don't need to branch out. Fire is considered by some to be the weaker of the 4 elemental schools. I'm not sure if this is true, but if it is, I'd rather balance it by increasing its raw power than adding utility spells to it.
Currently, regeneration is exclusive to necromancy, and I think it should stay that way. This is the only school which provides some form of healing and you can't use it if you worship one of the good gods. This creates an interesting choice, especially for the extended endgame.
More spells to support allies would be good, yes. But regenerating allies seems unbalanced, especially for Beogh. How about a L4 Haste Other spell?

[Yet Another Stupid Noob]

I think this would be a useful and interesting spell for a tabletop RPG campaign that I play with friends, but in Crawl I'm a horrible Xom-like entity forcing my little slave into a dank hole in the ground to desperately fight monsters for survival and probably die amusingly. The comfort of my little slave doesn't have much meaning to me, and I'm not about to let it spend five spell slots to get extra nutrition from meat rations when I can force it to eat cockroaches instead.

This alone makes me feel better about sending those several hundred shmoes to their death (and the fact that ONE! made it out).