Felids

[Cybermg]

You just described how extra lives are crutch for bad (or lazy) play...yet you are surprised that so many people think they are a crutch for bad play?

Lazy/risky play isn't necessarily bad play, especially when you're playing a felid. The ability to take more risks means you can make faster progress and spare more resources.

[galehar]

I'd also like the extra lives better (but still dislike them quite a bit) if they were an activated ability which did exactly what dying does now (full HP, teleport, etc.) and were limited in the same way.

That would completely break the flavour. It wouldn't be another life if you don't die.

[theropod]

Extra lives would be more a finite strategic resource and less a shortcut for lazy play if felids weren't already strong enough not to need the extra lives. (Make the felid game, you ARE going to die a few times. Choose when carefully.)

Perhaps take away their swiftness (they play a little too spriggan-like as it is anyway) and see if that shifts the balance back to, extra lives compensate for what would be an unfairly difficult species without them.

[absolutego]

innate swiftness already is a more interesting mechanic than extra lives.

[7hm]

I will concede the resources point - that the extra lives can be considered in the same way, as, for example, a potion of speed. There's a pretty big difference, though, in that you actively choose to quaff the potion whereas the extra lives are completely "in the background."

I'd also like the extra lives better (but still dislike them quite a bit) if they were an activated ability which did exactly what dying does now (full HP, teleport, etc.) and were limited in the same way. So while you get 8 "extra lives," you still die if you actually die; thus if you find yourself in a terrible situation you may try to last as many turns as possible before finally using the ability. Of course, we already have spells (Borgnjor's, Death's Door) and invocations (Enter the Abyss, Sanctuary, Step from Time) that are similar, which again makes me think the extra lives aren't needed at all.

Much better mechanic. It does break the flavour, but flavour is less important than gameplay.

Perhaps it's an ability with limited uses (exactly the same as current felid lives are given out, or slightly more given out). If you die with it activated, you are reborn. If not, you wasted it. It would add some level of strategy to the extra lives mechanic and would be much less of a free second chance, which felids feel like they get right now.

[galehar]

Much better mechanic. It does break the flavour, but flavour is less important than gameplay.

When we say that gameplay is more important than flavour it doesn't mean that flavour can be ignored. It means that a feature can be reflavoured, for gameplay reasons. But we still need the flavour. If we can't find a good one for the gameplay mechanism we want, then the feature is removed instead of having a dubious or silly flavour.

Felid's flavour is that they have several lives. I don't see how's minmay's proposal fit into that. Or in what it would fit. Also, it's almost like revivification.

By the way, I'm not too happy with my own proposal of reviving the felid at the same place, or close by, for the same reason. It feels like a life saving, not a new life. So let's try to balance it better while keeping the "new life" flavour: when you are revived, all your inventory stays on your corpse and you lose a level. As felids don't rely on equipment, they should be able to get their stuff back without too much trouble, but intelligent monsters may have looted some of it (also, no rune/orb stealing that way).

[Indrah]

Having just brought a FeBe to Vault 3 (as well as read this entire thread), I'd have to agree that Felids are not interesting enough as currently implemented. I do not have a problem with the extra lives mechanic, however a large part of the fun in crawl is finding cool new items to use against upcoming enemies. Too many items are useless to felids and the extra lives mechanic, to me, is not interesting enough to replace that loss.

To remedy this I propose the following solution:

Weapons, armor and wands remain unwieldable/unwearable to Felids, but that does not mean useless. Felids get a race specific ability (not unike deep dwarves' device recharging) named 'release magical energy', this is used on a magical item ('runed/glowing/shiny' etc, but also fixedarts and randarts) and destroys the item in the process.

The effects vary according to the item enchantment:

- A common enchantment like a +1/+2 spear would give the felid a temporary +1/+2 boost to it's teeth/claw weapon, a venomous +3/+0 dagger would give the felid +3/+0 venomous claws etc. Enchantments stack, brands replace previously gained brands, but all effects wear off after some time.

- +x armour of any kind gives temporary +x bonuses to AC. Resistances of any kind are temporarily gained.

- artifact effects like +4 STR, +3 INT are likewise temporarily added to Felid stats

- activated ability effects do not become temporary abilities but are activated immediately (releasing the energy from the cloak of darkness will turn you invisible and not give you the ability).

- wands are a special case. Felids are allowed to throw the wand a limited distance when releasing its energy (because it might otherwise hurt the felid). Upon landing it will then start giving some random effects that are fitting to its type. The effects take place every few turns until the wand runs out of charges, A wand of flame might conjure flame/give fireball explosions/sprout (neutral)firebats/imps. A wand of teleportation might create teleport traps in the area (one for each charge). A wand of healing might generate beneficial potions (again one for each charge over the course of many turns until it runs out of charges) in the area. etc.

-items without the "runed/shiny/embroidered" etc. adjectives remain useless to felids

Problems with this idea might be the following:

- this buffs the felid, while it doesn't need a buff
- encourages item hoarding and 'hoovering the dungeon'

For the first problem a drawback might be necessary, just like the deep dwarves ability costs it a permanent MP, perhaps the sacrifice of a scroll or something. For the second, perhaps disallow Felids carrying unwieldable items in inventory. I'll wait with developing this idea further until I see if people like it in principle.

The extra lives mechanic can stay or go, I'm kind of neutral about it, but it fits flavorwise.

[galehar]

Isn't the whole point of felid to have a very simple gameplay ignoring most of the items? This goes in the opposite direction.

[Indrah]

Isn't the whole point of felid to have a very simple gameplay ignoring most of the items? This goes in the opposite direction.

I thought the point of the species was that it is unable to equip many items as other races do, not necessarily to make a 'simple' race. It's inabilty to wield/wear makes it distinct, but by itself that may not be a distinction that's interesting enough, and in effect it makes the felid lose a large part of the game (most items become uniformly unusable). The proposed implementation allows the felid to use the richness and variety that crawl offers in scattered treasure throughout the game in a completely novel way.

[Bim]

Just read this, sorry that I'm sort of necromutating the thread.

I really like Indrah's idea (and agree with his problems) of something else to make felids different, and this could turn into the 'using items differently' race that keeps on being brought up in various forms. Although I don't like the sound of the AC boost (and most seem quite overpowered), this seems a bit strong, a 10 plate, plus stoneskin, plus randart hat would be pretty dramatic (obviously rare, but you can imagine what I mean). I think it would end up with a lot of saving for difficult bits/levels (bottom vault guards for instance), stacking and going in overpowered. Perhaps if the effect was reduced (even just halved?) then that would make it still worth while, but there wouldn't be much hoovering as only high items would work, and felids having rubbish strength would make it difficult to carry around much anyway. Perhaps doing away with the resists unless they were ++ could tame it down.Might be difficult to explain, but really, I think this is a great mechanic, and would love to see it implemented.

I don't think the life mechanic is too bad, although I prefer the idea of a random blink rather than resurrecting on the spot. I found most of the times that I died It was due to being 'boxed in' or turning a corner into something horrible, therefore unless time passed or there was a random blink, this could just make it annoying/useless in some cases. I think it would also be good to resurrect starving and with no MP, just to make it not an easy way out. Although, I am pretty much against the idea of extra lives in a rougelike on principle, I think the flavour is interesting enough, and it's a different mechanic. I think too many races are similar as it is, so extra lives is sufficiently different, even if a slightly boring difference for most long time players.