New scroll: stash

[Curio]

this idea just struck me.
Anyone else is bored with tedious travels to hive/lair to get your stuff? Especially in a lategame while hell not cleared yet. Or just too paranoid to make stashes in the main dungeon like me?
What if there was a scroll that created 1tile in size "sanctum" for items? Stuff put in there by player could not be picked up by enemy/ally monster, eaten by jellies or be sacrificed to Jiyva off-level.
Scroll should be spawn as rare as acquirement one.
Anyone like?

[mageykun]

Eh, strikes me as too Elbereth-y for crawl. Besides, for every person who finds an instance where it's useful, there will be 10 or more people for whom the scroll has no use (needing an extra safe spot for a stash strikes me as a highly situational, not to mention uninteresting, problem.). We don't need more dead weight scrolls.

[Curio]

Elber-what again?
what dead weight scrolls there is?
Also, going to add a poll. I like polls

[Hushed]

I like the concept, stash management can get tedious, and with hive slated for removal there arent going to be many places for a safe stash.

However, I think the scroll should create a portal (20 turn delay) to a 9 tile 'safe' vault with a portal out. When you leave the portal disappears and the vault can't be accessed unless you have another scroll of stash.

[Curio]

that is both overcomplicated and overpowered(can be exploited badly)

[Hushed]

How?

[Curio]

it could be used as a safehouse for a player while it intended to safeguard only items.

[Curio]

any constructive ideas then?

[KoboldLord]

Lair 2, Hive 2, and Hell will be within a few levels of your current location, no matter where your location is, at least barring Abyss and Pandemonium trawling. Set up a waypoint at one of these locations, and you can reach your stash in a total of three key strokes at any time.

A portable stash-scroll means that you can set up a stash anywhere, which means you are obligated to move your stash every time you find a new one. Moving a modest stash costs radically more keystrokes than all the existing stash runs in an entire game. The drive to organize your stash will be made even worse if there are more locations demanding your attention.

There are no meaningful gameplay costs associated with hitting Ctrl+G and a waypoint number, and there is no tedium involved that is not 100% self-inflicted. Your character will literally walk back on its own to dump the loot collected, and then walk back.

I don't intend to make any 'constructive' contributions to non-existent problems. There's no reason to pick up junk in the first place, and if you simply like having all the junk in one place there are already incredibly convenient commands for just that purpose.

[Tiber]

I personally like the idea someone else suggested where there were multiple stairs to the temple, but you always left the temple to the same floor you entered it from.

As for stashes, there are perfectly legitimate reasons for it. It safeguards valuable items such as enchanting scrolls, which may be useful later but are prone to destruction. It boosts your score, via artifacts. It makes the interface convenient, since there's no reason to drag every rune you collected everywhere.

It's perfectly possible to play the game without stashes, but the gameplay definitely encourages them.

[KoboldLord]

As for stashes, there are perfectly legitimate reasons for it. It safeguards valuable items such as enchanting scrolls, which may be useful later but are prone to destruction.

Unless there is a jelly right there in sight when you see the enchant scroll, that thing is safer sitting on the ground where you found it than it is being picked up by you. Orc wizards will intentionally try to hit you with fire spells, which has a chance to burn every scroll in your inventory. They never intentionally burn scrolls on the ground just because.

It's perfectly possible to play the game without stashes, but the gameplay definitely encourages them.

Yes, the simplicity of the interface does make stashing very convenient. Which is why we don't need to include consumables that make stashing more complicated. Stashing is easy in Crawl because it is quick and simple. Adding a bunch of crap to the process is just going to make it less quick and less simple.

[Tiber]

It's perfectly possible to play the game without stashes, but the gameplay definitely encourages them.

Yes, the simplicity of the interface does make stashing very convenient. Which is why we don't need to include consumables that make stashing more complicated. Stashing is easy in Crawl because it is quick and simple. Adding a bunch of crap to the process is just going to make it less quick and less simple.

I agree that the scroll idea isn't the best way to solve the stash problem. Where I disagree is where Ctrl-G makes it quick and simple. It's a great help, yes, but traveling back and forth is still a pain. And saying that not picking up junk is a fix for stash problems is misleading, since there are plenty of valid reasons for needing to dump items.

Oh, and I do usually leave enchant scrolls on the ground until I need to return to the stash.

[Silk]

Personally, the limited carrying space and necessity of stashes always struck me as one of the key challenges of roguelikes that need not be removed. IF we were to remove (or alleviate) it, I'd rather suggest Bags of Holding to solve the problem altogether. There should be a way to implement those.

edit: Apparently, there is not. Just read the dev-team's no-no list

[mageykun]

^Could be implemented, but won't.

Edit: Aha! You ninja corrected yourself before I could correct you. :p

I personally like the idea someone else suggested where there were multiple stairs to the temple, but you always left the temple to the same floor you entered it from.

...isn't that what Hell does already?

[XuaXua]

any constructive ideas then?

Expand Passage of Golubria.

I don't really know how the spell works, but I guess you cast it at point A and then cast it at point B and you can go from B to A and then that's it, right?
Allow it to be cast between floors.

Or, allow a set safehouse spell; you cast a spell and it sets a square on a floor as a safe location. You cast your recover spell from wherever and it brings you back there.

Or create a two-stone object "Stones of Retrieval". Place one stone somewhere and if you have the other stone, you can instantly move to the original stone. Don't allow stones of retrieval to work beyond a 10 level depth difference and/or neuter them if the zot rune is taken.

[MrMisterMonkey]

Instant reliable lifesaving at no cost (other than skill investment, mp to cast, hunger, etc.) would be ridiculously imbalanced.
It used to exist, too. (now it doesn't)

[Hushed]

it could be used as a safehouse for a player while it intended to safeguard only items.

I specified a 20 turn delay- if your character is in trouble, waiting 20 turns for a stash portal to open isn't going to be safer than just being backed into a corner or digging yourself a tunnel.

I think creating a safe spot in the open dungeon is too convenient, but having access to the convenience tied to a rare scroll sounds strategically interesting. You can then encounter situations where how many times you can access your special stash is limited by how many stash scrolls you have, and since you have to carry your stash scrolls to use them, a sticky flame spell has the very real possibility of removing access to your stash (and thereby your permafood reserves or whatever you keep there) until you find another scroll. Really I find this gameplay concept far more interesting than running up and down multiple levels that you've already cleared. Some players will find using a stash not worth the hassle, but some character and god choices heavily encourage stash use (spriggans, nemelex and jiyva come to mind).

I may be looking at this from the wrong angle though, all of my characters use stashes, and I've never really explored playstyles that wouldn't.

[galehar]

some character and god choices heavily encourage stash use (spriggans, nemelex and jiyva come to mind).

Jiyva is designed to be played without any stash. There's probably a few loopholes that needs to be fixed, but any stashing system should not make life easier for Jiyva worshippers.

I may be looking at this from the wrong angle though, all of my characters use stashes, and I've never really explored playstyles that wouldn't.

We all do, but each player handles it differently. Many players pick few items, and set up small stashes every 2 or 3 levels, so trips to the main stash are rare and not really problematic.

[KoboldLord]

You can then encounter situations where how many times you can access your special stash is limited by how many stash scrolls you have, and since you have to carry your stash scrolls to use them, a sticky flame spell has the very real possibility of removing access to your stash (and thereby your permafood reserves or whatever you keep there) until you find another scroll.

Which leads to the question… Why on earth would you use such a stupidly bad thing? For every single character, even Jiyva worshippers, it's going to be preferable to Ctrl+G to a waypoint over consigning your valuable loot to the purgatory of maybe never finding another stashing scroll. Why on earth should anybody code up an item that's worse than useless?

Really I find this gameplay concept far more interesting than running up and down multiple levels that you've already cleared.

It's been done before. Wind crystals in Azure Dreams, for instance. You'd really need to have infinite, non-returnable levels to justify it, though, because walking back is going to be preferable in absolutely every case that it is possible.

[pratamawirya]

Travelling back to your stash is a pain? It is. But it seems that some people see that "pain" as equal to the "pain" in games where monsters are generated infinitely. Which is kind of silly

[smock]

I don't really think this is a big problem.

A scroll of stashing that, after a lengthy delay that breaks the spell if interrupted, teleported selected items in your inventory to a square specified via X, ctr-G or waypoint, might not break things. That way you could send back weapons and armour that need to be mass-IDed with detect curse or potions of cure mutation. (An exception would be needed for the orb of Zot to prevent Felid 9 lives shenanigans.) But you could not grab an item from the stash.

One way, items only, long delay.

I think such an item would be somewhere between silly and anti-grinding. Silly because it takes, like 15 seconds of real time to return to your stash. But that is real time!

I haven't been able to figure out how this would be abused or be a burden. I trust a commenter will figure it out!

[XuaXua]

What about "carpet of protection" item?

When placed, it turns the square into the equivalent of a green crystal wall that no creature except the player can enter. You can place the entire stash on that square. The carpet is quite heavy, making it something you wouldn't want to lug around; you can certainly place it down to block a passage, but you can't throw it without some supreme strength, and to use it you need to evoke it, so throwing it does no good anyway.

Anyone in the carpet can be attacked from external forces (yes/no?). Someone carrying this and using a weapon of reaching might work out, depending on whether you can attack through it. If you can't attack through it, then it becomes a semi-portable protection item, which is why I say give it a very heavy weight.

ALTERNATE MECHANICS
Maybe instead, if you place a carpet of protection down, any items placed on the carpet cannot be taken by others or dissolved by jellies; the carpet is quite heavy and serves no other purpose.

[dpeg]

Sorry to spray water, but none of the protect-a-spot ideas will improve the game. Rather, you (unintentionally) introduce a new tool to be abused in a number of ways.
I don't think that stashing is taxing in Crawl these days but if it is considered to be a problem, such items won't be the solution.

[ibanix]

The whole concept is very meta-gamey, and I don't think a change is necessary.

[XuaXua]

To be honest, to fix the stash, we need to define the stash

A stash is a place to keep stuff that will be useful later (spellbooks, scrolls/wands/potions/food) so it won't be messed with creatures who can walk away with or destroy the items.

This is why the Ecumenical Temple (no creatures), Lair: 2 (minimal chance of creatures/no jellies spawned unless there is a jelly room, then you just clean that out), Hive:2 (same as Lair:2) and Hell (no spawns once you kill everyone) are the spots to use.

So now you know WHY people need/use a stash.
And now you know WHERE people stash.

What are the problems?

1 - Having to create a stash in the first place
2 - The accessibility of the stash.

[Hushed]

What are the problems?

1 - Having to create a stash in the first place
2 - The accessibility of the stash.

3. The upcoming removal of Hive as a branch.

[XuaXua]

What are the problems?

1 - Having to create a stash in the first place
2 - The accessibility of the stash.

3. The upcoming removal of Hive as a branch.

WHAT? Well there goes food management. Royal Jellies having restore abilities power have saved my ass way too much. Yes, let's get rid of that.

How about just make hive harder or earlier or make different classes of bugs or make a bug vault?

[Hushed]

My understanding is they're removing it as a branch, but it would still exist as a vault.

Its removal as a branch, though, means it's no longer an option for a stash.

[ibanix]

3. The upcoming removal of Hive as a branch.

Woah, woah, woah. Where is the thread for this?

[galehar]

What are the problems?

1 - Having to create a stash in the first place
2 - The accessibility of the stash.

How are they problems? To create a stash, drop items. To access your stash, travel to it. Sometimes you can't (Portal vaults, Pan and Zigs), but these parts of the game have been designed to be played without access to stashing, that's the point.
So before proposing a solution, let's identify the problem. I don't see one here.

3. The upcoming removal of Hive as a branch.

Woah, woah, woah. Where is the thread for this?

On the wiki.

[XuaXua]

What are the problems?

1 - Having to create a stash in the first place
2 - The accessibility of the stash.

How are they problems? To create a stash, drop items. To access your stash, travel to it.

Wrong. As defined by the parameters of this thread, the "stash" we're referring to is not the arbitrary term used for any item dropped in any square. the "stash" we're referring to is, as stated in the post you quoted, "a place to keep stuff that will be useful later (spellbooks, scrolls/wands/potions/food) so it won't be messed with creatures who can walk away with or destroy the items."

Not every space qualifies as one that won't be messed with creatures who can walk away with (intelligent) or destroy (jelly/acid) the items.

Temple, Hive:2, Lair:2, and Hell have the least likely chances of the above and therefore the greatest qualification.

[seth]

The only thing I find truly annoying about stashes is moving them. Picking up your stash is no big deal, but when it comes time to drop your stash, it's a pain to go through the entire list manually and think back on which items were in your stash and which you carried around, unless you drop just about everything in your inventory before you move stashes. On the pick-up (and inventory) screen there should be an option to "mark" all items you pick up, and then later you should be able to drop all marked items with a single keystroke.

[snow]

I've learned to keep my stashes light and only stash items that I will actually need later. This may be because I die so often that it's just not worth investing effort into an elaborate stash.

Usually as soon as I find the temple I stash my permanent food. I leave things like my books and wands that I just don't need and never stash them.

I move my food stash to the hive when I find it and also drop scrolls, potions, and gear that I might need later (such as a distortion weapon). I also stash wands of fire and cold.

I usually clear hell before doing zot and move all my food there... leaving behind most items that I no longer need in my old stash. I mean really you don't need detect curse scrolls when use identify everything you pick up anyway. And the same goes potions of might, invisibility, and levitation... these really aren't needed late game.

I mean why lug a library of books down to hell when you might only need one or two books for later? I think the problem most people have with stashing is that they stash too much.

[galehar]

The only thing I find truly annoying about stashes is moving them. Picking up your stash is no big deal, but when it comes time to drop your stash, it's a pain to go through the entire list manually and think back on which items were in your stash and which you carried around, unless you drop just about everything in your inventory before you move stashes. On the pick-up (and inventory) screen there should be an option to "mark" all items you pick up, and then later you should be able to drop all marked items with a single keystroke.

We are going to add a (D)rop last picked up command. This is planned for 0.9. It should help with that specific problem.