Abyss and the gods

[ajon]

So I have read a few posts lately stating that the abyss is easy and not interesting. I had an idea that might make it more interesting and tougher. When walking the abyss, the gods might take notice upon you and act upon you in some way. I know Chei already acts upon the abyss for followers. I was thinking this might word like hell effects. Randomly timed and have some random outcomes. Examples might include Xom noticing you and teleporting you toward or away from good/bad things depending on its mood. Shining one or Zin acting depending if you are evil or not either for or against you. Perhaps you can run into a "champion of XXX", most thematically Okawaru, but any/all might be interesting that are likely to carry different things of value. etc. Not fully fleshed out I know. Any thoughts from others?

[adozu]

all chei does is balance the fact that at normal spawn rate you'd encounter a lot more enemies than any other player given how slosly you stroll around, it's a compensation more than anything

[and into]

The main problem with the Abyss is that you can be forcibly sent there on characters for whom it is not dangerous (or, at least, for whom the abyss is of comparable or less danger, on average, compared to wherever the character was exploring before being banished). By contrast, when you get Abyssed early, it might cause a death that one finds frustrating, but it tends not to be a dull experience.

[Lokkij]

We could have the power and frequency of the 'god effects' scale with XL so it becomes a bit more interesting for strong characters.

[Sandman25]

Scaling Abyss for high XL characters will make me unhappy: what's the point in carefully avoiding Abyss at low XL if later you get right to Abyss 5 after entering Abyss with XL 27 character? It would force me to train stealth and go to Abyss before entering Depths (I am afraid this is what devs are going to do because they would like it).

[dpeg]

The main problem with the Abyss is that you can be forcibly sent there on characters for whom it is not dangerous (or, at least, for whom the abyss is of comparable or less danger, on average, compared to wherever the character was exploring before being banished). By contrast, when you get Abyssed early, it might cause a death that one finds frustrating, but it tends not to be a dull experience.

I agree. In my experience, early banishments are exciting. Granted, you can die easily, but that's alright for me, as long as it is fun. (Fun subjective etc.) I know that some players say it is boring/tedious simply because you have to play more slowly, but at least my playing style is slow enough that this has never been the case for me.

As and into says, there is a point in the game where banishment is much less exciting: you can deal with most stuff Abyss:1 throws at you, and it becomes a chore. (Or weaker souls may be inclined to traverse the Abyss for loot!) This is not good, but I think all the ingredients for a solution are already there. From the 0.17 release plan:

  Code:

Banishment — should take severity/power of the banishment source into account: early banishment (distortion weapon on D:4) should send characters to Abyss:1, Elf:3 banishment to Abyss:3. Can either use absdepth of the banishment source, or player XL, or banisher HD, or perhaps another scale. [Rationale: Abyss:1 is an interesting challenge for early game, but falls flat later on; the Abyss levels work well to distinguish between escape and rune hunt; the only missing piece is sending different characters to different levels).

I will try hard to come up with some kind of formula -- the main question is what parameter to use. Input welcome! (Sorry to OP for being somewhat off-topic here.)

[XuaXua]

The main problem with the Abyss is that you can be forcibly sent there on characters for whom it is not dangerous

Stupid simple fix for this edge case: It's not dangerous? Then why aren't you carrying the rune?

If you carry the Abyssal Rune, you can no longer get banished to the Abyss via unintentional (Zot/distortion/spell effects) means.
Self-banishment (Lugonu) or deliberate portal travelers (generally from Pandemonium) do not count.

[Siegurt]

The main problem with the Abyss is that you can be forcibly sent there on characters for whom it is not dangerous (or, at least, for whom the abyss is of comparable or less danger, on average, compared to wherever the character was exploring before being banished). By contrast, when you get Abyssed early, it might cause a death that one finds frustrating, but it tends not to be a dull experience.

I agree. In my experience, early banishments are exciting. Granted, you can die easily, but that's alright for me, as long as it is fun. (Fun subjective etc.) I know that some players say it is boring/tedious simply because you have to play more slowly, but at least my playing style is slow enough that this has never been the case for me.

As and into says, there is a point in the game where banishment is much less exciting: you can deal with most stuff Abyss:1 throws at you, and it becomes a chore. (Or weaker souls may be inclined to traverse the Abyss for loot!) This is not good, but I think all the ingredients for a solution are already there. From the 0.17 release plan:

  Code:

Banishment — should take severity/power of the banishment source into account: early banishment (distortion weapon on D:4) should send characters to Abyss:1, Elf:3 banishment to Abyss:3. Can either use absdepth of the banishment source, or player XL, or banisher HD, or perhaps another scale. [Rationale: Abyss:1 is an interesting challenge for early game, but falls flat later on; the Abyss levels work well to distinguish between escape and rune hunt; the only missing piece is sending different characters to different levels).

I will try hard to come up with some kind of formula -- the main question is what parameter to use. Input welcome! (Sorry to OP for being somewhat off-topic here.)

I would definitely use monster spellpower for banishment spells (this scales with critter HD in any case) I would use damage done for distorition-based banishments (This is also somewhat HD based)

I would also make all voluntary abyss entries into Abyss:1

I would NOT use player XL for banishment depth, this punishes players for increasing level (which results in bad gameplay) It also fails to be suitibly "nasty" when a player faces an OOD creature (For example a XL 15 character would be "lucky" to only suffer banishment at the hands of an ancient lich, were they unwise enough to go toe-to-toe with one)

:: Psudocode ::

  Code:

// On a scale from 0-200
banishment_depth(banishpower)
{
   
    return MIN(5,((banishpower+random_2(25))/40)+1);
}
distortion_banish(int damage_done)
{
    banish(banishment_depth(damage_done*7));
}
banish_spell(int spellpower)
{
     if(magic_resistance_fail(spellpower))
     {
          banish(banishment_depth(banishpower));
     }
}


[BobIsDead]

  Code:

Banishment — should take severity/power of the banishment source into account: early banishment (distortion weapon on D:4) should send characters to Abyss:1, Elf:3 banishment to Abyss:3. Can either use absdepth of the banishment source, or player XL, or banisher HD, or perhaps another scale. [Rationale: Abyss:1 is an interesting challenge for early game, but falls flat later on; the Abyss levels work well to distinguish between escape and rune hunt; the only missing piece is sending different characters to different levels).

This looks like it's along the right lines. In my mind, the banisher HD should be what determines depth. If one is banished by their own actions, it should be determined by their experience level. If they enter the abyss through a portal, they should enter it at the minimum floor necessary to have a chance of finding the rune. (The logic behind this last part is that they're likely entering the Abyss for the rune, therefore consider themselves strong enough to handle Abyss 3, ergo making them go through the previous floors just makes things tedious for them.)

All that said, I would also be remiss if I didn't add that there'd still be a problem with getting banished too early. I know you say that you see early banishments exciting. But I see them as a death sentence. I'm willing to admit that I might be in the minority on this. I also admit that there is a slight chance that I might make it out alive, but it's highly unlikely if I'm below a certain power threshold. Sure, you could blame my own carelessness for getting banished, but there are simply too many scenarios where one can get banished before they have any major chance of defending themselves.

I'm unsure of what I'm suggesting. Perhaps an additional floor to the Abyss, that goes before the other five, which you only get sent to if you're super underlevelled? Or maybe the probability of finding an exit should be increased the less deep you are in the Abyss. After all, under your proposed set-up, being banished to Abyss 1 is meant to be less of a threat than being banished to Abyss 4, so finding the exit should be easier. Regardless of how you feel about these specific proposals, this problem is something I ask you to at least consider.

[dpeg]

Bob: Whether early banishment is too deadly is a completely separate issue. If we think it is (but that'd require some effort... anecdotes about unfortunate abyssical casualties aren't enough), then there are many ways to address that, such as early banishment sources or monster/exit/altar generation on Abyss:1. Announcing distortion weapons should have a huge impact.

More exits on deeper Abyss levels serves a purpose: it makes the decision more interesting whether to use those stairs.

[lessens]

I don't think early banishment is exciting that often, you tend to just run around and hope you a) hit a lucky dice roll and find an exit and b) hope you don't get an unlucky dice roll and find one of the monsters that can unavoidably kill you because they're speed >10. At least until you run out of teleports. And on a related note, the existence of the Abyss means it's optimal to carry a tele ring through the entire game for the sole purpose of making Abyss survivable.

[rockygargoyle]

... it's optimal to carry a tele ring through the entire game for the sole purpose of making Abyss survivable.

Rings of teleportation doesn't work anymore on the abyss/labyrinth.

[Rast]

What's the rationale for that? It made them useable?

[Osgoodbad]

My biggest problem with the abyss is that there doesn't seem to be any meaningful difference between abyss 1 and abyss 5 spawns aside from spawn rate (ie, you'll get the same enemies in both cases, you'll just get more the farther down you go.) But an xl10 character can die just as easily to an LDS from an ancient lich as an xl1 character. I would rather have abyss 1 have more of a cap on OOD spawns to differentiate it from the rest of the abyss. Limiting demons to nequoxecs rather than cacodemons, for instance. Annoying but more survivable for lower level characters. Banished enemies can still go to abyss 1 (after all, you put them there.)

[lessens]

What's the rationale for that? It made them useable?

Probably what I said, it was a stupid no-brainer, they're still really useful e.g. if you're speedrunning. I don't really mind it being disabled in the Abyss at all.

[Leafsnail]

If you carry the Abyssal Rune, you can no longer get banished to the Abyss via unintentional (Zot/distortion/spell effects) means.
Self-banishment (Lugonu) or deliberate portal travelers (generally from Pandemonium) do not count.

I think I can get behind this. If you've already got the abyssal rune then banishment is generally only attacking your patience.

[Wahaha]

What's the rationale for that? It made them useable?

Probably what I said, it was a stupid no-brainer, they're still really useful e.g. if you're speedrunning. I don't really mind it being disabled in the Abyss at all.

By that logic shouldn't rC be disabled in Cocytus? Because it's a no-brainer. And it's still useful elsewhere so it's ok. Why don't we disable rings of rF when fighting orbs of fire, there's clearly no decision to be made there. Also I don't know why boots of running still exist, since they're a no-brainer everywhere and having good items in the game is terrible. I don't know why ring of tele was disabled but that couldn't be the reason (well it could be and I wouldn't be too surprised, which is a sad thought). There better be a good reason for disabling it because hey, it's OK if items are useful.

[duvessa]

What's the rationale for that? It made them useable?

Probably what I said, it was a stupid no-brainer, they're still really useful e.g. if you're speedrunning. I don't really mind it being disabled in the Abyss at all.

By that logic shouldn't rC be disabled in Cocytus? Because it's a no-brainer. And it's still useful elsewhere so it's ok. Why don't we disable rings of rF when fighting orbs of fire, there's clearly no decision to be made there. Also I don't know why boots of running still exist, since they're a no-brainer everywhere

I'm pretty sure these are all acknowledged as problems by much of the devteam

[lessens]

By that logic shouldn't rC be disabled in Cocytus? Because it's a no-brainer. And it's still useful elsewhere so it's ok. Why don't we disable rings of rF when fighting orbs of fire, there's clearly no decision to be made there. Also I don't know why boots of running still exist, since they're a no-brainer everywhere and having good items in the game is terrible. I don't know why ring of tele was disabled but that couldn't be the reason (well it could be and I wouldn't be too surprised, which is a sad thought). There better be a good reason for disabling it because hey, it's OK if items are useful.

It's a difference of quality. rF makes Zot:5 easier, rC makes Cocytus easier, but infinite teleports arguably destroy the only thing that makes Abyss interesting as a branch. Most of the monsters you're fighting there aren't particularly strong for a character going for their third rune, let alone a character doing postgame, but the constant respawns and reduced potential for healing mean that you have to be careful about what engagements you take so that you can either eliminate monsters quickly before they can hurt your character too badly, or just avoid them entirely. Infinite teleports sort of breaks this: any time you run into an even potentially rough encounter, just teleport, never fight anything threatening, and you'll find the rune eventually easy as cake. It might even be optimal to spend your entire trip to the Abyss hiding in a corner constantly evoking teleport. It's much, much more interesting if you have to manage your teleports and only escape when it's really necessary, though even that's not a big deal for characters that are actually going for the rune because they probably have far more teleports than they're actually going to need.

[Wahaha]

I'm pretty sure these are all acknowledged as problems by much of the devteam

Hard to imagine a Crawl where there are no items that are better than other items in any situation.

.

It's very good but not as good as you say. The teleports are delayed, enemies have ranged attacks, it doesn't help at all in rune vaults.

[rchandra]

the real question on tele ring is why does it let you evoke it at all? *tele is a punishment for using items without known ?RC, but evokable infinite teleports seems pretty bad.

[Sprucery]

Ring of tele could have been changed to make you starving upon evocation, for example, to prevent spamming it in the Abyss. Actually, that could have been a good change overall for the ring.

[Shard1697]

You could just eat fruit though.

[dowan]

How often do you actually run out of other sources of teleport, past the very early game? I don't think the ring of teleportation is as big of a deal as people are making it.

[Sar]

I understand it's a key item for speedrunners.

[dowan]

Speedrunners are insignificant to game design considerations anyway.

That said, I doubt I'd miss evokable teleport, since, as I said, how often do you actually run out?

[Pollen_Golem]

How about Abyss remains as is, but sources of banishment are made easier to identify and escape?

E.G. distortion weapons have a small halo, banishment spells have a long delay or must travel distance like an orb, etc...

Then enemies can be made to spam banishment at earlier levels, for more excitement with less frustration.

[duvessa]

How about Abyss remains as is, but sources of banishment are made easier to identify and escape?

E.G. distortion weapons have a small halo, banishment spells have a long delay or must travel distance like an orb, etc...

Then enemies can be made to spam banishment at earlier levels, for more excitement with less frustration.

so banishment becomes even more of a non-threat that only makes you play slower? sounds good to me!