Ammo always mulching

[Lasty]

I put together a branch where thrown/launched ammo always mulches and johnstein is hosting it on CBRO. Please give it a try and post your impressions.

Goal: to reduce the irritation of ranged combat, probably as one piece of a larger overhaul to fit ranged combat into crawl as an interesting feature rather than a better-than-melee alternative that's balanced by irritation of use.

Implementation: all ammo mulches every time its fired, whether or not it hits a target. Ammo generated on the ground and by acquirement has its quantity multiplied by ~20% more than its old one-in-x mulch chance, e.g. arrows had a 1:8 mulch chance, and now the number that spawn are the old number * 10. Ammo held by enemies is not multiplied, which means that e.g. stone giants can still run out of ammo. Overall I think this is likely to be a slight reduction of ammo for worshippers of non-gifting gods, and scumming centaur/yaktaur spawns for ammo should be pretty useless. A certain level of ammo scarcity is desired, but total ammo availability isn't meant to change too significantly in this branch.

The returning brand is removed. Nets are not affected by this change.

[Lasty]

It looks like this is already heading off-topic. This thread is to announce the existence of a new branch and allow people who have tried the branch to leave feedback. Other posts will be culled.

[Berder]

Found 20 bolts of frost, 25 arrows of frost in ice cave. Vaults aren't updated?

[Berder]

Well, this is my character after completing lair8. I chose a FoHu with crossbows because I'd won that recently in trunk. The amount of bolts I'm getting is similar to what I would normally have at this point in the game (after dividing the numbers by 8). However, that is not enough to rely on my crossbow as a main source of damage - you can see I have to rely on my trident a lot more than the xbow. (2086 hits with trident, 540 with xbow, 560 bolts remaining).

That would be just fine except that normally with a xbow hunter, you get tons of bolts in orc, snake, and vaults, which makes it possible to actually focus on xbows and enchant an arbalest to +9 instead of your melee weapon. But if as you say you get negligible ammo from enemies, that probably won't be possible this game. So I think this confirms the ammo shortage I predicted.

  Code:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.17-a0-38-ga03b933 (webtiles) character file.

Brdr the Fighter (Formicid Hunter)                 Turns: 26973, Time: 01:37:06

Health: 128/130    AC: 22    Str: 24    XL:     16   Next: 1%
Magic:  30/30      EV: 22    Int: 13    God:    Fedhas [*****.]
Gold:   1622       SH:  0    Dex: 15    Spells: 2 memorised, 23 levels left

rFire  + . .     SeeInvis +     a - +3 trident (venom)
rCold  . . .     Clarity  .     o - +6 scale mail of the Vacuum {Str+6}
rNeg   . . .     SustAb   .     (no shield)
rPois  .         Gourm    +     (helmet unavailable)
rElec  .         Spirit   .     L - +1 cloak
rCorr  .         Warding  .     h - +0 pair of gloves
rMut   .         Stasis   +     C - +2 pair of boots
MR     +....                    g - amulet of the gourmand (curse)
Stlth  +.........               J - ring of protection from fire
                                q - +6 ring of evasion

@: repel missiles, somewhat resistant to hostile enchantments, very unstealthy
A: permanent stasis, dig shafts and tunnels, four strong arms, antennae 3, spit
poison 1
a: Dig, Shaft Self, Spit Poison, Evolution, Sunlight, Growth, Reproduction,
Rain, Renounce Religion


You are on level 8 of the Lair of Beasts.
You worship Fedhas.
Fedhas is extremely pleased with you.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 2 branches of the dungeon, and seen 19 of its levels.
You have also visited: Labyrinth, Sewer and Ice Cave.

You have collected 1734 gold pieces.
You have spent 112 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 a - a +3 trident of venom (weapon)
 b - a +1 hand crossbow
 c - a +0 blowgun
 B - the +7 short sword of Bryteofidu {freeze, rElec rN+ MR- Int-4 Dex+5}
   (You took it off a minotaur in a labyrinth)   
   
   It has been specially enchanted to freeze those struck by it, causing extra
   injury to most foes and up to half again as much damage against particularly
   susceptible opponents. It can also slow down cold-blooded creatures.
   
   It affects your intelligence (-4).
   It affects your dexterity (+5).
   It insulates you from electricity.
   It protects you from negative energy.
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
 K - a blackened dagger
 Q - the +3 dagger "Kothirev" {speed, rElec Str+3 Int+3}
   (You found it on level 7 of the Dungeon)   
   
   Attacks with this weapon are significantly faster.
   
   It affects your strength (+3).
   It affects your intelligence (+3).
   It insulates you from electricity.
Missiles
 t - 20 bolts of frost
 y - 260 bolts
 z - 717 poisoned needles
 H - 210 curare-tipped needles
 Z - 180 bolts of flame
Armour
 h - a +0 pair of gloves (worn)
 o - the +6 scale mail of the Vacuum (worn) {Str+6}
   (You found it on level 3 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   It affects your strength (+6).
 C - a +2 pair of boots (worn)
 L - a +1 cloak (worn)
 V - a +0 cloak of invisibility
Magical staves
 x - an uncursed staff of cold
 R - an uncursed staff of summoning
 S - an uncursed staff of earth
Jewellery
 g - a cursed amulet of the gourmand (around neck)
 i - an uncursed amulet of resist mutation
 m - an uncursed ring of positive energy
 q - a +6 ring of evasion (left hand)
 v - an uncursed ring of protection from magic
 J - a ring of protection from fire (right hand)
Magical devices
 d - a wand of draining
 r - a wand of lightning {zapped: 2}
 F - a wand of digging
 U - a wand of fireball {zapped: 3}
 W - a wand of paralysis
Scrolls
 j - a scroll of fear
 k - 7 scrolls of recharging
 n - 4 scrolls of remove curse
 u - a scroll labeled JIDAPLICAOL
 D - a scroll labeled VUIXOLOFUV
 E - 3 scrolls of immolation
 G - 2 scrolls of enchant weapon
 I - 2 scrolls of magic mapping
 M - a scroll of vulnerability
 O - a scroll labeled BRITINO DERCHES
 Y - a scroll labeled CYEG HUCESYJU
Potions
 e - a potion of resistance
 p - 3 potions of might
 s - 5 potions of curing
 w - 2 potions of heal wounds
 A - 2 potions of flight
 P - a potion of magic
 T - 2 potions of brilliance
Comestibles
 f - 16 bread rations
 l - 6 meat rations
 N - 8 fruits {!e}
 X - a slice of pizza


   Skills:
 - Level 13.1 Fighting
 + Level 11.0 Polearms
 - Level 12.7 Crossbows
 - Level 11.8 Armour
 - Level 9.2 Dodging
 - Level 1.2 Stealth
 - Level 6.3 Spellcasting
 - Level 6.5 Charms
 - Level 5.1 Air Magic


You have 23 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
b - Swiftness             Chrm/Air       ###.....     6%          2    #......
m - Repel Missiles        Chrm/Air       ###...       6%          2    #......


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (11/15)            Temple (0/1) D:7            Lair (8/8) D:11
 Shoals (0/5) Lair:4       Spider (0/5) Lair:4        Slime (0/6) Lair:7
    Orc (0/4) D:9         

Altars:
Ashenzari
Dithmenos
Fedhas
Gozag
Kikubaaqudgha
Okawaru
Ru
Sif Muna
Trog
Vehumet
Yredelemnul
Beogh

Shops:
D:6 ?


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You are under a permanent stasis effect.
You can dig through walls and to a lower floor.
Your four strong arms can wield two-handed weapons with a shield.
You have a pair of large antennae on your head (SInv).
You can spit poison.


Message History

You swap places.
You swap places.
You walk carefully through the plants.
You walk carefully through the plants.
Key pressed, stopping explore.
You walk carefully through the fungus.
You walk carefully through the plants.
You walk carefully through the fungus.
You walk carefully through the fungus.
You walk carefully through the plants.
You walk carefully through the plants.
You swap places.
You swap places.
Key pressed, stopping explore.
Unknown command.
You walk carefully through the plants.
Key pressed, stopping explore.
You see here a +2 ring of protection.
You walk carefully through the plants.
A spriggan comes into view. It is wielding a dagger.
The spriggan shouts!
Unknown command.
A fire drake comes into view.
The fire drake bites the plant.
The fire drake bites the plant but does no damage.
You puncture the spriggan!
The spriggan is heavily wounded.
The spriggan completely misses you.
You completely miss the spriggan.
The spriggan is heavily wounded.
The spriggan misses you.
The fire drake bites the plant but does no damage.
You hit the spriggan. The spriggan is poisoned.
The spriggan is severely wounded.
The spriggan hits you with a dagger.
You hit the spriggan!
You kill the spriggan!
The fire drake bites the plant but does no damage. x2
Things that are here:
a dagger; a robe; a spriggan corpse
The fire drake bites the plant.
You offer a prayer to Fedhas.
A toadstool grows from a nearby corpse.
Fedhas appreciates your contribution to the ecosystem.
Fedhas is extremely pleased with you.
The fire drake breathes flames at you.
The blast of flame hits the plant. The blast of flame hits you! You resist.
Attack whom?
Press: ? - help, Dir - move target cursor, f - fire drake
Aim: a fire drake
You reach to attack! You completely miss the fire drake.
Attack whom?
Press: ? - help, Dir - move target cursor, f/p - fire drake
Aim: a fire drake
You reach to attack! You hit the fire drake. The fire drake is poisoned.
The fire drake is lightly wounded.
Attack whom?
Press: ? - help, Dir - move target cursor, f/p - fire drake
Aim: a fire drake (lightly wounded, poisoned)
You reach to attack! You hit the fire drake! The fire drake looks even sicker.
The fire drake is moderately wounded.
Attack whom?
Press: ? - help, Dir - move target cursor, f/p - fire drake
Aim: a fire drake (moderately wounded, poisoned)
You could not reach far enough!
Attack whom?
Press: ? - help, Dir - move target cursor, f/p - fire drake
Aim: a fire drake (moderately wounded, poisoned)
You could not reach far enough!
The fire drake breathes flames at you.
The blast of flame hits the plant. The blast of flame misses you.
Attack whom?
Press: ? - help, Dir - move target cursor, f/p - fire drake
Aim: a fire drake (heavily wounded, poisoned, catching its breath)
You reach to attack! You puncture the fire drake!!
You kill the fire drake!
No target in view!
No target in view!
You walk carefully through the plants.
You walk carefully through the plants. A nearby toadstool withers and dies.
You open the door.
Unknown command.
An adder comes into view.
The adder barely misses you.
Found a potion of mutation.
There is an open door here.
You puncture the adder!!
You kill the adder!
No target in view!
No target in view!
You offer a prayer to Fedhas.
Some toadstools grow from a nearby corpse.
Fedhas appreciates your contribution to the ecosystem.
Fedhas is extremely pleased with you.
You walk carefully through the plants.
You walk carefully through the plants.
You walk carefully through the plants.
There is an open door here.
A nearby toadstool withers and dies.
There is an open door here.
You walk carefully through the plants.
You walk carefully through the plants.
Things that are here:
a dagger; a robe; a spriggan skeleton
You walk carefully through the plants.
Key pressed, stopping explore.
Your wandering mushroom cannot make way for you.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Your wandering mushroom cannot make way for you.
You cannot walk through the dense trees.
You cannot walk through the dense trees.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Use which ability? (? or * to list)
You extend your mandibles.
You dig through the rock wall.
You dig through the rock wall.
You retract your mandibles.
Unknown command.
Use which ability? (? or * to list)
You extend your mandibles.
You dig through the rock wall.
Unknown command.
You dig through the rock wall.
You dig through the rock wall.
You dig through the rock wall.
You dig through the rock wall.
You retract your mandibles.
The death yak bellows!
Unknown command.
You hit the death yak. The death yak is poisoned.
The death yak is lightly wounded.
The death yak gores you!!
You hit the death yak. The death yak looks even sicker.
The death yak is lightly wounded.
The death yak gores you!
You hit the death yak but do no damage.
The death yak is lightly wounded.
You swap places.
Your wandering mushroom releases spores at the death yak.
The death yak is engulfed in a cloud of spores!
You puncture the death yak!
The death yak is heavily wounded.
The death yak gores you but does no damage.
Your wandering mushroom releases spores at the death yak.
The death yak is engulfed in a cloud of spores!
You puncture the death yak!!
The death yak is almost dead.
The death yak misses you.
You hit the death yak!
The death yak is almost dead.
Your wandering mushroom releases spores at the death yak but does no damage.
The death yak gores your wandering mushroom!!
You hit the death yak!
You kill the death yak!
Your Polearms skill increases to level 11!
You have reached level 16!
You feel clever.
You offer a prayer to Fedhas.
Some toadstools grow from a nearby corpse.
Fedhas appreciates your contribution to the ecosystem.
Fedhas is extremely pleased with you.
Unknown command.
You cannot walk through the dense trees.
You cannot walk through the dense trees.
Use which ability? (? or * to list)
You extend your mandibles.
You dig through the rock wall.
You dig through the rock wall.
You retract your mandibles.
You cannot walk through the dense trees.
You swap places.
You swap places.
You swap places.
You swap places.
A nearby toadstool withers and dies.
You swap places.
You swap places.
You swap places.
You swap places.
You see here a death yak skeleton.
You walk carefully through the plants.
Key pressed, stopping explore.
You walk carefully through the plants.
You walk carefully through the plants.
You walk carefully through the plants.
Key pressed, stopping explore.
You walk carefully through the plants.
You walk carefully through the plants.
Key pressed, stopping explore.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
You walk carefully through the fungus.
Done exploring.
Done exploring.
Done exploring.
Unknown command.
You swap places.

          #######
        ###.#..P#
        #....#..########
       ##P........##.#.#####
  ######..P........##..##..###
 ##...###........#.#...##..##.
##....####P......####..###....
#.......#PPfff....#.....#....#
##.....##PPPf@.....PP.P..#....
#.......PPP....PP#PPP.........
##......PP.......PPP..........
 ##.....PP...f....PPP.......##
 #..............).PPPP........
 #...P............P..P........
#..#P....P...#.......P....#...
#####..##...................P.
  #.#...#.#................PPP


You can see 3 friendly oklob plants and 5 friendly wandering mushrooms.

Vanquished Creatures
  A frost giant (IceCv)
  A minotaur (Lab)
  A fire dragon (Lair:8)
  Harold (Lair:3)
  A catoblepas (Lair:8)
  A hydra (Lair:5)
  11 death yaks
  Nergalle (Lair:8)
  3 hill giants
  An ice statue (IceCv)
  2 hornets (Lair:8)
  A griffon (Lair:2)
  An orb spider (Lair:4)
  An ugly thing (D:11)
  3 wolf spiders
  A guardian serpent (Lair:8)
  9 elephants
  25 spiny frogs
  12 black mambas
  5 fire drakes
  4 komodo dragons
  4 trolls
  14 polar bears
  Grinder (D:5)
  13 blink frogs
  A snapping turtle (Lair:4)
  A shadow (D:11)
  3 basilisks (Lair:8)
  A wyvern (Lair:8)
  A human (D:7)
  56 yaks
  A steam dragon (Lair:8)
  8 hippogriffs
  A deep elf fighter (D:11)
  2 hungry ghosts
  2 spriggans
  2 wraiths (D:9)
  24 wolves
  A hog (D:7)
  The ghost of Brdr the Bolt Thrower, an average FoHu (D:3)
  19 water moccasins
  4 mottled dragons (Lair:8)
  16 porcupines
  A swamp drake (Lair:8)
  5 ice beasts
  5 black bears
  6 orc warriors
  2 sky beasts
  4 spiders (Lair:8)
  5 centaurs
  5 ogres
  3 wasps (Lair:7)
  An eye of draining (D:9)
  2 boring beetles (Lair:8)
  An elephant skeleton (Lair:3)
  17 crocodiles
  12 giant frogs
  4 big kobolds
  An elf skeleton (D:9)
  A water moccasin skeleton (D:5)
  A scorpion (D:10)
  9 wights
  A crimson imp (D:10)
  4 jellies
  6 electric eels
  A quasit (D:9)
  A goliath beetle (D:9)
  Dowan (D:9)
  11 hounds
  5 orc priests
  A centaur skeleton (D:8)
  2 giant frog skeletons
  A gnoll shaman (D:9)
  5 orc wizards
  14 worker ants
  14 iguanas
  5 human skeletons (D:9)
  17 sheep
  A crocodile skeleton (Lair:3)
  4 ogre skeletons (Lab)
  Terence (D:2)
  3 mummies (D:9)
  36 adders
  4 gnolls (D:9)
  110 river rats
  4 giant mites
  3 worms
  A shadow imp (D:7)
  2 adder skeletons
  6 giant geckos
  45 orcs
  5 ball pythons
  A bat skeleton (D:5)
  5 giant cockroaches
  9 goblins
  8 hobgoblins
  32 kobolds
  13 quokkas
  18 bats
  A giant cockroach zombie (D:5)
  A giant gecko skeleton (D:6)
  9 giant newts
  A giant spore (D:10)
  11 jackals
  21 rats
791 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (collateral kills)
  3 hydras
  8 death yaks
  2 hill giants
  A necromancer (Lair:3)
  2 elephants
  3 spiny frogs
  2 black mambas
  6 komodo dragons
  2 polar bears (IceCv)
  2 blink frogs (Lair:3)
  7 yaks
  2 hippogriffs
  A wolf (Lair:6)
  A porcupine (Lair:3)
  5 water moccasins
  2 orc warriors (D:9)
  2 spiders (Lair:8)
  8 ice beasts
  2 wasps (Lair:8)
  Duvessa (D:9)
  2 giant frogs
  A komodo dragon skeleton (Lair:3)
  A troll skeleton (D:9)
  3 hounds
  An orc priest (D:9)
  An iguana (Lair:6)
  A basilisk skeleton (Lair:3)
  A worker ant (Lair:8)
  2 sheep
  3 adders
  19 river rats
  2 wandering mushrooms
  6 orcs (D:9)
  4 bats (D:11)
  2 quokkas (Lair:2)
  2 rats (D:11)
  2 toadstools
115 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  An oklob plant (Lair:3)
  A necrophage (D:10)
  53 wandering mushrooms
  A hound (D:10)
  A kobold (D:10)
  A giant spore (D:10)
  4 fungi
  8 plants
  646 toadstools
716 creatures vanquished.

Grand Total: 1622 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | Brdr, the Formicid Hunter, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 16/16 MP: 1/1
   263 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 19/22 MP: 3/3
   605 | D:1      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 23/27 MP: 4/4
   853 | D:1      | Reached skill level 5 in Crossbows
  1425 | D:2      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 26/33 MP: 5/5
  1501 | D:2      | Noticed Terence
  1506 | D:2      | Killed Terence
  1959 | D:2      | Reached skill level 6 in Crossbows
  1959 | D:2      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 36/38 MP: 7/7
  2154 | D:3      | Noticed Brdr's ghost (average FoHu)
  2162 | D:3      | Killed Brdr's ghost
  2162 | D:3      | Reached skill level 7 in Crossbows
  2162 | D:3      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 40/44 MP: 8/8
  2538 | D:3      | Found a bloodstained altar of Trog.
  2611 | D:3      | Found a sacrificial altar of Ru.
  2850 | D:4      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 45/50 MP: 9/9
  2891 | D:4      | Reached skill level 8 in Crossbows
  4139 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  4151 | D:5      | Reached skill level 9 in Crossbows
  4156 | D:5      | Got a smoking hand axe
  4157 | D:5      | Identified the +7 hand axe "Vexkayst" {drain, rN+ MR- SInv} (You found it on level 5 of the Dungeon)
  4326 | D:5      | Found a blossoming altar of Fedhas.
  4330 | D:5      | Became a worshipper of Fedhas Madash
  4443 | D:5      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 30/56 MP: 11/11
  4466 | D:5      | Found a glowing drain.
  4492 | Sewer    | Entered a sewer
  4686 | Sewer    | Found a glowing silver altar of Zin.
  4805 | D:5      | Found a basalt altar of Yredelemnul.
  4837 | D:5      | Noticed Grinder
  4852 | D:5      | Killed Grinder
  4852 | D:5      | Reached skill level 10 in Crossbows
  5279 | D:6      | Found Marej's Magic Scroll Emporium.
  5287 | D:6      | Bought a scroll of fear for 52 gold pieces
  5287 | D:6      | Bought a scroll of identify for 30 gold pieces
  5287 | D:6      | Bought a scroll of identify for 30 gold pieces
  5424 | D:6      | Found an iron altar of Okawaru.
  5892 | D:6      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 47/64 MP: 12/12
  6018 | D:7      | Reached skill level 11 in Crossbows
  6022 | D:7      | Found a shattered altar of Ashenzari.
  6129 | D:7      | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
  6224 | D:7      | Found an opulent altar of Gozag.
  6233 | D:7      | Got a scorched dagger
  6236 | D:7      | Identified the +3 dagger "Kothirev" {speed, rElec Str+3 Int+3} (You found it on level 7 of the Dungeon)
  6289 | D:7      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  6824 | D:7      | Found a radiant altar of Vehumet.
  6849 | D:7      | Acquired Fedhas' first power
  7093 | D:8      | Found a deep blue altar of Sif Muna.
  7350 | D:8      | Found a shadowy altar of Dithmenos.
  7527 | D:8      | Reached skill level 12 in Crossbows
  7527 | D:8      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 70/77 MP: 13/13
  7700 | D:9      | Noticed Dowan
  7703 | D:9      | Noticed Duvessa
  7706 | D:9      | Killed Dowan
  7712 | D:9      | Killed Duvessa
  8245 | D:9      | Found a roughly hewn altar of Beogh.
  8245 | D:9      | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines.
  8270 | D:9      | Acquired Fedhas' second power
  8587 | D:9      | Found an ancient bone altar of Kikubaaqudgha.
  8610 | D:9      | Reached skill level 1 in Armour
  9636 | D:10     | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon
  9636 | D:10     | Noticed a hill giant
  9643 | D:10     | Killed a hill giant
  9643 | D:10     | Reached XP level 11. HP: 89/89 MP: 15/15
  9843 | D:10     | Reached skill level 5 in Armour
 10329 | D:11     | Noticed an eight-headed hydra
 10640 | D:10     | Noticed a hill giant
 10647 | D:10     | Killed a hill giant
 10733 | D:11     | Killed an eight-headed hydra
 10849 | D:11     | Found a staircase to the Lair.
 10960 | D:11     | Noticed a hill giant
 10969 | D:11     | Killed a hill giant
 10969 | D:11     | Reached skill level 10 in Fighting
 11158 | D:11     | Noticed a brown ugly thing
 11166 | D:11     | Killed a brown ugly thing
 11198 | D:11     | Noticed a hill giant
 11212 | D:11     | Killed a hill giant
 11212 | D:11     | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging
 11776 | D:11     | Noticed a hill giant
 11788 | D:11     | Killed a hill giant
 11788 | D:11     | Reached skill level 1 in Polearms
 11883 | D:11     | Reached XP level 12. HP: 98/98 MP: 16/16
 12014 | D:11     | Acquired Fedhas' third power
 12183 | Lair:1   | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts
 12880 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 5 in Polearms
 13174 | Lair:1   | Learned a level 2 spell: Repel Missiles
 13177 | Lair:1   | Learned a level 2 spell: Swiftness
 14043 | Lair:2   | Found a frozen archway.
 14250 | IceCv    | Entered an ice cave
 15681 | IceCv    | Noticed a death yak
 15681 | IceCv    | Noticed a death yak
 15699 | IceCv    | Killed a death yak
 15699 | IceCv    | Reached XP level 13. HP: 88/104 MP: 17/17
 15705 | IceCv    | Killed a death yak
 16083 | IceCv    | Noticed a frost giant
 16083 | IceCv    | Noticed a death yak
 16083 | IceCv    | Noticed a death yak
 16093 | IceCv    | Killed a death yak
 16094 | IceCv    | Killed a death yak
 16095 | IceCv    | Killed a frost giant
 16350 | Lair:2   | Noticed a five-headed hydra
 16371 | Lair:2   | Killed a five-headed hydra
 16371 | Lair:2   | Reached skill level 10 in Armour
 17588 | Lair:3   | Found a labyrinth entrance.
 17596 | Lair:3   | Got a bronze scale mail
 17636 | Lair:3   | Identified the +6 scale mail of the Vacuum {Str+6} (You found it on level 3 of the Lair of Beasts)
 17638 | Lab      | Entered a labyrinth
 18218 | Lab      | Noticed a minotaur
 18239 | Lab      | Killed a minotaur
 18239 | Lab      | Reached skill level 1 in Spellcasting
 18239 | Lab      | Reached skill level 1 in Charms
 18245 | Lab      | Got a transparent short sword {freeze}
 18246 | Lab      | Identified the +7 short sword of Bryteofidu {freeze, rElec rN+ MR- Int-4 Dex+5} (You took it off a minotaur in a labyrinth)
 18257 | Lab      | Identified Nieblot's Tome of Companions and Earth
 18272 | Lab      | Identified the Collected Works on the Assistive Voyage
 18419 | Lair:3   | Reached skill level 1 in Air Magic
 18790 | Lair:3   | Reached XP level 14. HP: 81/115 MP: 23/23
 18848 | Lair:3   | Noticed Harold
 18866 | Lair:3   | Killed Harold
 20285 | Lair:4   | Acquired Fedhas' fourth power
 20500 | Lair:4   | Reached skill level 5 in Charms
 20511 | Lair:4   | Reached skill level 5 in Spellcasting
 20627 | Lair:4   | Got a blackened dagger
 20871 | Lair:4   | Found a hole to the Spider Nest.
 20976 | Lair:4   | Found a staircase to the Shoals.
 21523 | Lair:5   | Acquired Fedhas' fifth power
 21568 | Lair:5   | Gained mutation: You can spit poison. [potion of beneficial mutation]
 22211 | Lair:6   | Reached skill level 5 in Air Magic
 22561 | Lair:6   | Reached XP level 15. HP: 120/120 MP: 30/30
 23285 | Lair:7   | Found a staircase to the Slime Pits.
 24284 | Lair:8   | Entered Level 8 of the Lair of Beasts
 24675 | Lair:8   | Noticed Nergalle
 24705 | Lair:8   | Killed Nergalle
 24986 | Lair:8   | Reached skill level 13 in Fighting
 25954 | Lair:8   | Reached skill level 10 in Polearms
 26865 | Lair:8   | Reached XP level 16. HP: 94/130 MP: 30/30


Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Short sword       |   115 |   104 |     3 |       |       |       ||   222
       Trident           |       |     1 |   218 |   563 |  1304 |       ||  2086
       Hand axe          |       |       |     5 |       |       |       ||     5
 Fire: Hand crossbow     |    16 |    49 |   122 |   218 |   135 |       ||   540
       Blowgun           |       |       |     8 |     4 |       |       ||    12
 Cast: Repel Missiles    |       |       |       |       |     2 |       ||     2
Invok: Evolution         |       |       |     2 |    19 |    48 |       ||    69
 Abil: Dig               |       |       |     2 |     8 |    10 |     1 ||    21
Evoke: Wand              |       |       |       |       |     2 |       ||     2
  Use: Potion            |     1 |       |       |     5 |     6 |       ||    12
       Scroll            |       |       |    17 |     6 |    10 |       ||    33
 Stab: Distracted        |       |       |       |     1 |     6 |       ||     7
       Confused          |       |       |       |     3 |    19 |       ||    22
       Fleeing           |       |       |       |       |     1 |       ||     1
       Invisible         |       |       |       |       |     1 |       ||     1
  Eat: Chunk             |     1 |     5 |    15 |    15 |    21 |       ||    57
       Beef jerky        |       |       |       |     5 |       |       ||     5
       Royal jelly       |       |       |       |     1 |     1 |       ||     2
       Pizza             |       |       |       |     2 |     7 |       ||     9
       Meat ration       |       |       |       |       |     1 |       ||     1


[Siegurt]

It does appear that ammo on enemies is presently multiplied (At least of the 7 or so centaur's I've killed so far, each held a minimum of around 200 arrows)

[Berder]

Yes, like I said a kobold gave me 179 bolts. Not sure why that message was deleted.

[Arrhythmia]

Yes, like I said a kobold gave me 179 bolts. Not sure why that message was deleted.

it wasn't

[Lasty]

Ah, that's a bug then. I'll look into it.

[Siegurt]

Contrary wise, the only orc I've found with tomahawks on him had 4....

Edit: However the first cyclops I've found had 39 large rocks (after hurling one at me) Maybe that orc just rolled really badly or threw a bunch already?

[Berder]

I just entered vaults and all the yaktaurs are dropping hundreds of bolts.

I like it this way. I don't see any reason why yaktaur ammo shouldn't get multiplied. There are very few enemies who actually run out of ammo while you're fighting them - cyclops and stone giants, but it doesn't happen very often with those and is not a major tactical consideration. Centaurs and yaktaurs basically never run out in normal situations. So just multiply all ammo held by monsters as well as on the floor, and it wouldn't be much of a buff to stone giants or yaktaurs or anything else.

[johlstei]

Do you have a link to a pointer to the git tree? I don't see anything that's obviously this on neil's gitweb.

[Siegurt]

So after playing a game:

1. I think Sandblast should suck down more than one stone/cast (For my personal amusement, maybe it should be proportional to damage done)
2. I killed a couple early fungus's with thrown stones, normally this would be impractical (Since I wouldn't have enough stones to do it in one go, and picking them up from underneath a stationary fungus without getting next to it would be difficult when it's in a corridor, at very least it would present more of a challenge than hitting <tab> innumerable times.) This is rather an isolated thing, and probably not important in the grand scheme.
3. I killed a couple monsters who were stuck across water with no way to get to me, without ammo to retrieve, there was no risk or sacrifice to plinking things from afar with my 5K stack of throwing stones.
4. I was much more willing to kill things over deep water and lava with my ammo, since I wasn't sacrificing anything.

I didn't find overall that there was a very significant change to my playstyle (Other than the aforementioned incidents) It might have seemed slightly easier overall, since I didn't have the same sorts of limitations. Mostly it was just a slight annoyance reducer (For instance, I either had enough large rocks to kill that hydra, or I did not, there was no "plink it until you're out of large rocks, and circle back around until you can pick them up again for another round")

[Berder]

So after playing a game:

1. I think Sandblast should suck down more than one stone/cast (For my personal amusement, maybe it should be proportional to damage done)
2. I killed a couple early fungus's with thrown stones, normally this would be impractical (Since I wouldn't have enough stones to do it in one go, and picking them up from underneath a stationary fungus without getting next to it would be difficult when it's in a corridor, at very least it would present more of a challenge than hitting <tab> innumerable times.) This is rather an isolated thing, and probably not important in the grand scheme.
3. I killed a couple monsters who were stuck across water with no way to get to me, without ammo to retrieve, there was no risk or sacrifice to plinking things from afar with my 5K stack of throwing stones.
4. I was much more willing to kill things over deep water and lava with my ammo, since I wasn't sacrificing anything.

Along those lines:
5. Jellies are less threatening, they can't eat the bolts you shoot them with

[Berder]

And won. I credit my +18 Wyrmbane with +11 slaying for much of it, but the +9 arbalest of freezing could have carried the game on its own. Not having to pick up ammo made the arbalest noticeably more convenient.

Also: I turned off beam animations. This speeds up ranged combat.

There's a weird targeting bug when you press tab with a ranged weapon, where the aiming cursor sometimes will slowly walk over to the target square-by-square before it shoots. It doesn't always happen. It seems to happen more often in more open levels, maybe - it comes and goes, and sometimes it's faster and sometimes it's slower. Hard to say exactly what is triggering it, but if you want to make ranged combat more convenient I would say fixing that bug is at the top of the list.

Shoals was much easier than it would otherwise be, without the need to walk into dangerous territory to pick up ammo, and it was nice not to have to worry about bolts getting caught in plants or deep water.

[Wahaha]

I just entered vaults and all the yaktaurs are dropping hundreds of bolts.

I like it this way. I don't see any reason why yaktaur ammo shouldn't get multiplied. There are very few enemies who actually run out of ammo while you're fighting them - cyclops and stone giants, but it doesn't happen very often with those and is not a major tactical consideration. Centaurs and yaktaurs basically never run out in normal situations. So just multiply all ammo held by monsters as well as on the floor, and it wouldn't be much of a buff to stone giants or yaktaurs or anything else.

Giants not running out of ammo is a good thing anyway. Stairdancing until they run out of ammo is an annoying optimal tactic (yes I do it sometimes). Of course it's still possible to do it if they have 100 rocks or whatever, but like Berder says no one does it with yaktaurs. That's a thing hunger is supposed to prevent anyway.

[Rast]

And won. I credit my +18 Wyrmbane with +11 slaying

Gee, ya think?

Also: I turned off beam animations. This speeds up ranged combat.

I should do this.

There's a weird targeting bug when you press tab with a ranged weapon, where the aiming cursor sometimes will slowly walk over to the target square-by-square before it shoots. It doesn't always happen. It seems to happen more often in more open levels, maybe - it comes and goes, and sometimes it's faster and sometimes it's slower. Hard to say exactly what is triggering it, but if you want to make ranged combat more convenient I would say fixing that bug is at the top of the list.

I have noticed this as well in .16. Haven't bothered to report it. It's obnoxious as hell. I think it happens more/is worse when there is a ton of monster trash scattered around.

[tedric]

First of all, Lasty: Thanks for your work on this! And to whoever may have helped get it up on CBRO!

My impression so far is that from a user interface/experience perspective, not having to pick up ammo -- or watch autoexplore stumble back and forth doing it for me -- that part is great. From a tactical perspective, however, I think this is a problematic change.

For most situations, having abundant ranged ammo that always mulches works essentially the same as ranged does in trunk: I shoot at enemies I want to soften up or try to kill from a distance, and either swap to melee or run from those that get too close. I'm rarely in danger of running out of ammo in a particular fight, nor overall once I get a decent stack and am over the early-game hump. But there are also a bunch of situations where I'm doing things I wouldn't have before, because they are now 100% advantageous and have no downside:

- As others mentioned above, I'm almost always willing to shoot at enemies in locations where I wouldn't be able to retrieve ammo (across water/lava);
- I'm more willing to shoot at enemies in locations where it would be dangerous for me to retrieve ammo (near an Oklob/statue/sleeping unique or other dangerous foo that I don't want to get in LOS of);
- I'm MUCH more willing to spam curare at anything curare-worthy until I score a hit (instead of retreating after 1 or 2 misses so I'll still have a few needles on me if I meet another tough foo before I can retrieve the ones I just shot);
- Etc.

Encouraging these tactics simplifies the game for the player -- both in a good way (by improving the UI/UX) and in a bad way (by taking away the few situations where the current ammo system actually makes the player think about ammo use). The examples illustrate that you can't just make a simple equivalency between the total expected shots w/ reusable sometimes-mulching ammo and the total number of always-mulching ammo available to the player, and expect the gameplay to remain basically the same. It's most noticeable in the case of the most precious ammo -- curare needles -- since now the first stack of curare I find is likely to be >100 needles instead of <10, which means that in any individual fight I have functionally infinite curare (until I'm down to my last 5 or so needles, at least; but I get to enjoy a big advantage for a lot of fights before then).

Some of this could be fixed by fine-tuning the ammo drop rates, but in a game that's driven by randomization I think it would be nearly impossible to get that balance to a place where it will feel "just right" for every character, every time. So the game would have to err on the side of providing more ammo, and that means we're still left with the same fundamental problem that plagues the current ammo system after the early game: lack of scarcity. I have thoughts about how to tackle that, but I'll dump them in the thread about alternative ammo reforms.

[tompliss]

I also think that the drop rates are too high.

More specifically, I think we could devide the drop rates by 5 by double the frequency of ammos stacks.
Right now, you can be lucky and find a 200 stack of javelins in D3 (like I did), and you're golden until lair (obviously, it's random, but it happens often enough that it's not as exceptionnal as finding a +12 weapon tabbing the next 10 levels).

I fele like the current number of ammo found totally prevent the stress on ammos, as you don't really care how much is left.

[ragnarokchu]

The problem with having ammo feel scarce in a randomize game is you either have a "enough ammo" or "not enough."

What I mean by this is, assuming you want to used an ranged method of killing monsters. You most likely have a backup plan for weaker enemies or enemies that you shouldn't be shooting with ammo anyway (via melee or magic). Optimal play would be to kill/soften everything with projectile that is worth it, then use your infinite melee/magic attacks to finish them off. It sounds pretty logical but all assumptions involving using ammo uses the standard that a character will *only* use projectiles to kill monsters and that it theoretically *should* be possible to play a pure ranged character.

This is were the problem comes in, if you make the game have the possibility of "enough ammo" to create a pure ranged character. Anyone who is not (pure bow user ect) will always have enough ammo the vast majority of the time. If you made it were the standard users who used ranged attack as a supplement, pure ranged characters will always not have enough ammo.

A possible way to fix this is to have projectiles attacks have unlimited ammo (or you have a stock that you create using MP or whatever to limit the amount of shots you can fire in a fight) but the ranged attack is much weaker until you use a consumable arrow (found like normal) for the attack.

[Rast]

We kinda have that already:

slingers have tons of stones, sane quantities of bullets
throwers... tons of stones (pretty bad for throwing without +slaying), very limited amounts of the good throwing weapons until you reach the branches where monsters spawn with them.
bows and xbows: vanilla bolts and arrows vs branded (though in practice the weapon brand makes this less meaningful)

[duvessa]

the "unlimited bad ammo" suggestion is dumb because it's basically the same thing we have right now, you'd just use the crap unlimited ranged attacks instead of crap unlimited melee attacks

but the idea before that - you can't make ammo both limited and unlimited at the same time, like DCSS appears to be trying to - is accurate

[Sprucery]

but the idea before that - you can't make ammo both limited and unlimited at the same time, like DCSS appears to be trying to - is accurate

Unless we accept that the only way to have unlimited ammo would be by worshipping Trog or Oka. So going pure ranged would require ammo gifting. I don't know if this would be a good solution, but it could be a solution.

[tedric]

One idea I don't think I've ever seen before in these ammo discussions is giving each ranged weapon a relatively small quiver, and preventing the player from holding more than that many ammo at one time. I'm imagining that the quiver limit would apply separately to each brand of a given ammo type, and that quiver size could become a differentiating factor between launchers (so a shortbow might give an arrow quiver size of 15, a longbow 25 -- and with a longbow you'd be able to simultaneously hold 25 of each arrow type). Combined with 100% mulch rate and some tweaking of the drop rates, this would produce the following.

Tactical benefit: It would be possible to run out of ammo in any given fight.
Strategic benefit: You could count on there being plenty of ammo in the game overall, so your ranged weapon will never be useless for any significant length of time.
User Interface benefit: No more collecting spent ammo.

However, this would likely encourage degenerate/grindy behaviors that would have to be prevented somehow. One I can foresee immediately is a player shuttling ammo back and forth to create a one-tile stockpile just outside/upstairs of their next big planned fight (empty the quiver, press ; to refill, repeat till fight over). Preventing this might require making it impossible to drop ammo -- all ammo types would live in a quiver that isn't part of inventory, so those slots can only be refilled and never need to be emptied. There would still be an advantage to dragging enemies back towards the nearest unclaimed ammo pile, and I don't know if that can be mitigated just by balancing the drop rates.

[Siegurt]

One idea I don't think I've ever seen before in these ammo discussions is giving each ranged weapon a relatively small quiver, and preventing the player from holding more than that many ammo at one time. I'm imagining that the quiver limit would apply separately to each brand of a given ammo type, and that quiver size could become a differentiating factor between launchers (so a shortbow might give an arrow quiver size of 15, a longbow 25 -- and with a longbow you'd be able to simultaneously hold 25 of each arrow type). Combined with 100% mulch rate and some tweaking of the drop rates, this would produce the following.

Tactical benefit: It would be possible to run out of ammo in any given fight.
Strategic benefit: You could count on there being plenty of ammo in the game overall, so your ranged weapon will never be useless for any significant length of time.
User Interface benefit: No more collecting spent ammo.

However, this would likely encourage degenerate/grindy behaviors that would have to be prevented somehow. One I can foresee immediately is a player shuttling ammo back and forth to create a one-tile stockpile just outside/upstairs of their next big planned fight (empty the quiver, press ; to refill, repeat till fight over). Preventing this might require making it impossible to drop ammo -- all ammo types would live in a quiver that isn't part of inventory, so those slots can only be refilled and never need to be emptied. There would still be an advantage to dragging enemies back towards the nearest unclaimed ammo pile, and I don't know if that can be mitigated just by balancing the drop rates.

I had a tactically-limiting quiver in mind in my above suggestion, which has some of the benefits you mention without the drawbacks. (It doesn't allow you to differentiate weapons in the same class by quiver size)

[sdynet]

It is very very NICE! THANK!

[tedric]

@Siegurt: by "above suggestion" I guess you mean this post in the other, confusingly concurrent, ammo thread viewtopic.php?p=216472#p216472

It's not a bad concept overall, but I don't like any ideas that involve ammo regenerating automatically -- the differences introduced by the quiver mechanic you describe just make that aspect less like magic and more like rods.

[Siegurt]

Yes, I did, similar topic names confused me
Personally, I would rather quivers were more like rods and less like wands.

[johlstei]

I guess it should be pointed out that this is a big change to sticks to snakes. Not exactly a big deal in the long run, especially since transmuters still only start with 12 arrows, but it should at least be noted.

[partial]

basic ammo = unlimited
special ammo (and needles) = limited quantity

[Pollen_Golem]

I don't about other ammo types, but it seems best to specifically SET NEEDLE MULCH RATE TO 100% and carefully rebalance needle drops accordingly. Needles are particularly useful and rare very early in the game. It's just not very fun to work with 2 curare needles. And it doesn't even make sense when they don't mulch! Does a needle self-eject after poisoning an ogre, and drop to the ground without losing potency? Puh-leez! Maybe you could allow needles to not-mulch only with a miss.

[TheArcanist]

basic ammo = unlimited
special ammo (and needles) = limited quantity

I think that this, combined with the special ammo always mulching, is the best way to solve this problem. A quivering system would be hard to implement without an interface screw, and unless you're playing a Centaur it wouldn't even really meaningfully impact how many arrows you could toss because you'd just switch to a melee weapon when something closes in. If you want to keep the inventory burden associated with normal ammo, we could just replace all iterations of vanilla ammo with a quiver of ammunition that provides a limitless supply for its appropriate launcher. (I recognize this would serve to nerf Sticks to Snakes, but I don't particularly care because Sticks to Snakes is a terrible spell that needs to die)

[sdynet]

basic ammo = unlimited
special ammo (and needles) = limited quantity

-special ammo (and needles)-
Dispersal Arrow/Tomahawk, Exploding Sling bullet/Tomahawk, not poison needles(Sleeping, Slowing, Confusion, Paralysis, Frenzy, Curare)

I think special ammo(and needles) limited quantity is 200.
and, The obtain amount is low Than 1/2. (Now is 75~150. This is 37~75.)