New hybrid summoner background and a Reaver rework.


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Lair Larrikin

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Post Thursday, 13th January 2011, 02:02

New hybrid summoner background and a Reaver rework.

I understand from reading the dev wiki that there is a definite push for cleaning up PC backgrounds and that the Reaver background may go to the chopping block.
However I think that hybrid backgrounds are well worth saving and even expanding on since they provide players with a needed middle ground between pure casters and pure melee characters while saving them the pain of having too train up fighting as a caster or spell-casting for a fighter. This is why I have come up with a new proposed background and a rework proposal for reavers. :)


Summoner melee hybrid: Battle Caller
Starts with the Book of Battle Spirits which contains:
Summon Small mammals L1
Sticks to Snakes L2
Tukima's Dance L3
Recall L3
Summon Elemental L4
Same starting inventory as Cr and Re otherwise.
Starting skills: L2 in Fighting, L2 in chosen weapon, L1 armor, L1 dodge, L2 spellcasting, L2 summonings.

Justification: Summoning counterpart to Reaver’s; intended for races that play well as hybrids but are terrible at conjurations (merfolk, vampires, sludge elves, felids) and could use an alternative to crusaders. Would also be useful for prospective vehumet followers who want to get some summoning in before he starts gifting books.
Suggested builds: MfBc, SeBc, KeBc

II: New Reaver starting book:
Easy Battlefield Conjurations (or even better Battlefield Conjurations for dummies)
Magic Dart L1
Shock L1
Throw Frost L2
Blink L2
Conjure Flames L3
Stone Arrow L3 (this got buffed right?)

Otherwise starting kit would remain the same.

Justification: Blink would give players a real reason to pick Re over a normal conjurer while conjure flames and Stone arrow would give the armor lovers a reason to pick up magic (especially DD's with their +3 to Earth magic in trunk) and start blasting. Finally having all elemental schools represented would make this a great find for a caster looking to branch out into elemental schools like say Battle callers.
Suggested builds: HeRe, DDRe, KoRe
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Post Thursday, 13th January 2011, 02:19

Re: New hybrid summoner background and a Reaver rework.

I really like the idea of the Reaver class and hope it doesn't go.

A book with opposing elemental schools would not be very attractive though - there's a significant penalty for training ice once you have fire, and vice versa.

As a melee-oriented class, I think Reavers should have a smaller spellbook, but I like the idea of Blink in there.

A reaver who started with Magic Dart, Blink and Conjure Flame would be really worthwhile without any other spells. They start with just a bit of magic to supplement their melee game. If they want more spells they need to find them.

I've started a few HE Wizards as Reavers actually as a way of skipping the training up of fighting and STR. It works fairly well. You start by VDing Magic Dart until conjurations gets to level 3, and you get an extra power level for the spell. From there, it's a great hybrid melee blaster hybrid.

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Lair Larrikin

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Post Thursday, 13th January 2011, 02:38

Re: New hybrid summoner background and a Reaver rework.

The reason for the opposing spells schools is simply to make reavers a more generalist background that would be appealing to basically every magic-using race (maybe even dwarfs! too) and give Reavers the ability to VD themselves into whatever school they choose should they a good spellbook early on.

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Post Thursday, 13th January 2011, 03:54

Re: New hybrid summoner background and a Reaver rework.

Haven't looked too much at these, but Summon Elemental doesn't fit at all; it requires a good lot of elemental skill, which a Bc wouldn't have.
Similarly, how would they train for Tukima's, and why would they get Recall when not even summoners do?

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Post Thursday, 13th January 2011, 04:15

Re: New hybrid summoner background and a Reaver rework.

MrMisterMonkey wrote:Haven't looked too much at these, but Summon Elemental doesn't fit at all; it requires a good lot of elemental skill, which a Bc wouldn't have.
Similarly, how would they train for Tukima's, and why would they get Recall when not even summoners do?


The gimmick for Bc would be that they would be more generalist casters than a summoner and that their casting would be directed more to aiding their melee game (i.e keep recalling summons to distract your current melee victim) rather than just spamming summons and running away. A MfBc would for example specialize in ice magic and start training ice magic (with whatever source he can find) so he can start calling water elementals to his aid which would upgrade his deadliness considerably.

Also Tukima shouldn't be that hard to train up by victory dancing a bit to cast it well.

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Post Thursday, 13th January 2011, 05:00

Re: New hybrid summoner background and a Reaver rework.

MfBc doesn't even start with a way to train up Ice. It's obvious how they would play, but Recall and Summon Elemental don't exactly help, the latter solely because there's no way to use it before finding another book and training whatever elemental school up a bunch.

Also, victory dancing a level 3 spell from 0 skill isn't exactly pleasant, and should by no means be optimal or encouraged.

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Post Thursday, 13th January 2011, 05:12

Re: New hybrid summoner background and a Reaver rework.

Spammals alone would get you to early Lair without swinging your weapon, and that's where Vehumet gifts your first spellbook to you. If you want a support-focused summoner, you pretty much have to make new spells from scratch.

The trouble with reavers, on the other hand, are just that they are mechanically dreadful. Generalists sound awesome to beginners, but at the early game you don't have the xp to spend on getting several different skills up to passable levels. Having a ranged popgun is valuable at that point, but elemental conjurations cost twice as much xp to build up as every other possible source. Compare to invocations with Makhleb, or looting a bow off a centaur. A more practical spellbook might be this:

Spellbook of Ice Reaving
Freeze
Ensorcelled Hibernation
Freezing Aura
Ozocubu's Armor
Condensation Shield

Three buffs and a way to shut down dangerous enemies, plus a first-level spell to train with. Can be used to train towards hexes, enchantments, or transmutations depending on what you choose to focus on and what spellbooks turn up. And ultimately, you only need to spend xp in one school to get a passable early-game effect from the whole book.

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Lair Larrikin

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Post Thursday, 13th January 2011, 05:31

Re: New hybrid summoner background and a Reaver rework.

Here were the original proposals I made on SA btw for comparison.
Battle Caller
Starts with the Book of Battle Spirits which contains:
Summon Butterflies L1
Blink L2
Recall L3
Summon Elemental L4
Shadow Creatures L5

II: New Reaver starting kit:
Book of Battle Conjurations:
Magic Dart L1
Throw Frost L2
Conjure Flame L3
Mephitic Cloud L3
Mystic Blast L4

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Post Thursday, 13th January 2011, 05:42

Re: New hybrid summoner background and a Reaver rework.

KoboldLord:

Well that's more of an elementally-flavoured hybrid generalist than a a specifically reaver-style hybrid; it has Freeze for the tiniest bit of reaver-style play (but not really because it doesn't synergise with melee at all), EH for enchanter-style play, and the rest are just crusader-style.

Really, if you want to want to preserve the conj/melee start, pick conj spells that synergise with melee (general ranged attacks are okay, but some special conj like Sticky Flame and Conjure Flame are particularly good for boosting damage while in melee), rather than making a hybrid elementalist.

My opinion on the conj/reaver start matter, though, is that the Conjurer background should die (elementalists and wizards are good enough) and perhaps Reavers too (as with Death Knight, just let people start with something else and pick up a weapon; it's not that hard).


Lawman:

Those don't mesh either, and I'm pretty sure some of those spells (IMB, Shadow Creatures, Butterflies) should be kept out of starting books, regardless.
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Post Thursday, 13th January 2011, 16:35

Re: New hybrid summoner background and a Reaver rework.

I agree, KoboldLord's suggested spellbook is really basically another crusader, which is the style that is focused on buffing yourself with magic. Reavers are about killing other stuff.

I'd sooner see Conjurers go than Reavers. Reavers and fire ice/elementalists provide a better range of options than having conjurer and FE/IE as choices.

I would support scaling back / tweaking the Reaver spellbook though. Wouldn't it make sense that a reaver would have access to fewer spells out of the gate than a full-on conjurer?

How about having just a few L1-2 ranged attack spells, plus some things with battle utility but that wasn't enchantment oriented:

Reaver [ice]
- freeze (memorized)
- magic dart
- throw frost
- projected noise
- conjure freezing cloud (new spell, just like conjure flame except ice)

Reaver [fire]
- flame tongue (memorized)
- magic dart
- throw flame
- projected noise
- conjure flame
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Post Thursday, 13th January 2011, 16:39

Re: New hybrid summoner background and a Reaver rework.

On further thought, each could maybe also have freezing aura / fire brand.

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Post Thursday, 13th January 2011, 18:06

Re: New hybrid summoner background and a Reaver rework.

mirroring conjure flame for an ice book is exceedingly dull as it breaks wonderful differentiation.

also, how does projected noise help a reaver playstyle at all? Freeze doesn't help much, either, since you have to be in melee range, at which point you want to melee (but freeze is better than melee in early game before running out of mp), and Flame Tongue has a similar problem before getting it to range 2 (but it's worse than melee).
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Post Thursday, 13th January 2011, 18:23

Re: New hybrid summoner background and a Reaver rework.

I'd rather have the crusader as the defensive hybrid ( charm/ice), and reaver as the offensive one (conj/fire). Reaver should have conjure flame and sticky flame.
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Post Thursday, 13th January 2011, 21:45

Re: New hybrid summoner background and a Reaver rework.

My thought was not to have reavers merely be conjurers with weapons, but to have them be warriors who used elemental offensive magic. On further thought, I think I'd scrap the ice / fire option and just have one type of reaver.

Projected noise was just a thought for some way of differentiating from conjurers more without getting into the enchantment / crusader style.

What WOULD help would be blink - blast away with your spells, and if you don't feel up to melee, blink away when they get close. So they'd be something between conjurers and wizards, but with melee. To build on the blink theme, I'd add apportation too.

So here's concept #2:

Book of Reaving:
a) magic dart
b) apportation
c) blink
d) Iskendarun's Mystic Blast
e) Plane shift

This would probably make Warpers redundant, but I'd like this way more.

Lair Larrikin

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Post Thursday, 13th January 2011, 22:42

Re: New hybrid summoner background and a Reaver rework.

danr wrote:My thought was not to have reavers merely be conjurers with weapons, but to have them be warriors who used elemental offensive magic. On further thought, I think I'd scrap the ice / fire option and just have one type of reaver.

Projected noise was just a thought for some way of differentiating from conjurers more without getting into the enchantment / crusader style.

What WOULD help would be blink - blast away with your spells, and if you don't feel up to melee, blink away when they get close. So they'd be something between conjurers and wizards, but with melee. To build on the blink theme, I'd add apportation too.

So here's concept #2:

Book of Reaving:
a) magic dart
b) apportation
c) blink
d) Iskendarun's Mystic Blast
e) Plane shift

This would probably make Warpers redundant, but I'd like this way more.


I sorta like that but I would replace apport with corona and phase shift with slow to better support a reavers conjurations.

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Post Thursday, 13th January 2011, 23:24

Re: New hybrid summoner background and a Reaver rework.

Eh, but corona sucks... -_-

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Post Friday, 14th January 2011, 00:11

Re: New hybrid summoner background and a Reaver rework.

danr:
I rather like mystic blast's power-exclusivity and phase shift is not starting book material, in my opinion. Furthermore, apportation has no synergy with their playstyle. Note, also, that breadth (particularly that of Conj&Blink(&Slow, lawman)) is a Wizard thing, and Wizards can pick up weapons perfectly fine.
I'd like to note that my concept of reavers is a hybrid with conjurations and starting especially with those that work well with melee (usually take effect over time so players can melee while they deal their damage, rather than simply choosing either to spam conj. or bash things to conserve/regain mp); however, as there aren't many of these spells, and they wouldn't really fit well in a book together, it probably wouldn't work as a background without filler spells and nonsense like that.

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Post Friday, 14th January 2011, 02:31

Re: New hybrid summoner background and a Reaver rework.

The reason reavers are on the chopping block in the first place is that they're completely redundant with conjurors who pick up and use a weapon. We will continue to have any reaver-related playing style in the game, just start with a conjuror and go. They just got rid of the weaker of the two mostly-identical backgrounds. I mean, wooo! Fighting 1! That only takes 30 seconds with a plant after killing an ogre! You've already caught up on the reaving play style, and it's still D2.

Every conjuration-based spellcaster can pick up a weapon and hit things with it. If your spellbook is just another list of conjurations, then you have yet ANOTHER conjuration-based spellcaster to go with the EIGHT already available.

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Post Friday, 14th January 2011, 02:34

Re: New hybrid summoner background and a Reaver rework.

get rid of Conjurers, as they're dull and elementalists do the job
specifically make Reavers get Conj. spells that go well with melee; if this is impossible, axe them
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Post Friday, 14th January 2011, 04:01

Re: New hybrid summoner background and a Reaver rework.

MrMisterMonkey wrote:get rid of Conjurers, as they're dull and elementalists do the job
specifically make Reavers get Conj. spells that go well with melee; if this is impossible, axe them

I agree.

At the very least, Reavers should have their own book so that they are not just Conjurers with more STR, a weapon and a few levels in fighting.

That said, lately I've been starting conjurers as reavers instead of the other way around. It saves the tedium of training fighting. Of course, I haven't had much success either way.
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Post Friday, 14th January 2011, 10:15

Re: New hybrid summoner background and a Reaver rework.

KoboldLord wrote:The reason reavers are on the chopping block in the first place is that they're completely redundant with conjurors who pick up and use a weapon. We will continue to have any reaver-related playing style in the game, just start with a conjuror and go. They just got rid of the weaker of the two mostly-identical backgrounds. I mean, wooo! Fighting 1! That only takes 30 seconds with a plant after killing an ogre! You've already caught up on the reaving play style, and it's still D2.

Every conjuration-based spellcaster can pick up a weapon and hit things with it. If your spellbook is just another list of conjurations, then you have yet ANOTHER conjuration-based spellcaster to go with the EIGHT already available.


Or give them a starting book with conjurations that have good synergy with melee: conjure flame and sticky flame.
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Post Friday, 14th January 2011, 13:05

Re: New hybrid summoner background and a Reaver rework.

galehar wrote:Or give them a starting book with conjurations that have good synergy with melee: conjure flame and sticky flame.


I remain unconvinced that these two spells actually have synergy with melee.

Conjure flame will hold many opponents at bay entirely. Melee isn't typically very good at hitting an opponent that won't close in, although there's certainly a niche for polearms of reaching.

Sticky flame deals damage over time. To be worth using by a primarily melee combatant, it would have to deal more damage than an early-game branded weapon, in the span of time before that branded weapon finishes the job. If your flaming war axe will kill a target in three hits, sticky flame would need to deal at least 33% of that target's hit points worth of damage in three ticks. If it deals less, you might as well just hit it with the axe.

While there are certainly marginal uses that sort of help in melee, like zombies that happily wade into conjured flames regardless of the damage, compare these to freeze (slow most early-game poisoners), ensorcelled hibernation (stabbity), or Ozocubu's armor (holy crap my AC just doubled). There's a bit of a gap here in melee utility. Ice and air are much better elemental skills for a melee combatant than fire is.

Although part of the problem could just be that ice is way too awesome.

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Post Friday, 14th January 2011, 15:27

Re: New hybrid summoner background and a Reaver rework.

minmay wrote:
KoboldLord wrote:Sticky flame deals damage over time. To be worth using by a primarily melee combatant, it would have to deal more damage than an early-game branded weapon, in the span of time before that branded weapon finishes the job. If your flaming war axe will kill a target in three hits, sticky flame would need to deal at least 33% of that target's hit points worth of damage in three ticks. If it deals less, you might as well just hit it with the axe.

If you hit it with the axe three times, that's three times the target gets to hit you. Hit it with Sticky Flame once and you only need to get hit once.
Let's say you're fighting a death yak. You can kill it in about 10 axe hits, but during that time you will lose 100 HP to it. If you can kill it with three casts of Sticky Flame but it takes 20 turns to do so, you still only need to take three hits from the death yak instead of ten.
Sticky Flame isn't a very good spell to cast on something you're fighting in melee if you're going to continue fighting it in melee. It's for casting on something you're fighting in melee and then ceasing to fight it in melee.


See that sounds like something a caster would do, not a hybrid.

Then again, in my mind it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to have two types of incredibly different offensive tactics (melee and magic), for the same reason the Red Mage was always useless in Final Fantasy, and generally was relegated to being a version of a White Mage.
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Post Friday, 14th January 2011, 17:32

Re: New hybrid summoner background and a Reaver rework.

I like the idea of combat spells that require you to stay in melee range. That to me makes it work with the melee-based nature of reavers.

Although kiting is the best use of sticky flame, it doesn't hurt to have the monster being burned alive while you are also simultaneously chopping it to bits. Well, it hurts the monster, I guess. A lot.

Another contact / offensive spell: static discharge. What other spells are like that?

I really like this idea, and it really differentiates from squishy conjures with long ranged attacks. Instead you have a more resilient fighter with short ranged magical attacks. These short ranged spells, don't forget, are not as bad with a character that can afford to stay in melee range (but their damage may still need to be boosted to make them a viable alternative to melee).

The closest you could come to attacking from a safe range would be casting flame tongue from behind a conjured flame, arcing static discharge to further monsters, or using sticky flame and running away.

They should also be limited to lower-level spells, as spellcasting should be more of a boost to the melee game than the main approach.

To me, this would really make reavers a unique class with a unique playstyle.

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Post Friday, 14th January 2011, 18:48

Re: New hybrid summoner background and a Reaver rework.

(sticky flame and conjure flame are actually really good at complimenting melee, especially when kiting is impractical or impossible. say you're fighting a skeletal warrior and backing up would put you into sight of a curse skull; conjure flame, let the skelewarrior walk into it, sticky flame it, and hit it with your axe; it should go down pretty quickly. or perhaps you're fighting yaktaurs or stone giants with ranged attacks, or an executioner, so you can't kite. pardon me if this is extremely rare or doesn't do enough damage (hint: it actually helped my MDFE a lot, so I think it does enough) or some nonsense like that, though.)

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Post Friday, 14th January 2011, 20:10

Re: New hybrid summoner background and a Reaver rework.

I got plenty of use out of Conjure/Sticky Flame on my HuHe, in the same way that monky explained. It's not at all marginal and fits the reaver style nicely.
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Post Friday, 14th January 2011, 20:51

Re: New hybrid summoner background and a Reaver rework.

Hm... Interesting. Now I'm starting to imagine the reaver as something like a "Fire Warrior".

Now, would this be crazy? What if they started with a dagger of flame? It would be unique as a class to start with a branded weapon, but it's only a dagger, I don't think the flame brand on a dagger would do much more than buff it to something like a +0,+1 short sword. It would add flavour though and help a bit more against early undead monsters.

So, to summarize, starting equipment:
Fire/Air Reaver (Conjurations oriented)
a) +0 dagger of flaming
b) Book of Reaving:
- flame tongue
- conjure flame
- static discharge
- sticky flame
c) a +0 robe (should be red)
d) 1 scroll of immolation
e) a bread ration

I believe flame tongue actually does decent damage, it's main limitation is the short range. Looking through the list of fire spells, "Ring of Fire" seems thematic too but it's level 8.

I like the scroll of immolation - the fire reaver has this pre-identified, and it's another (single-use) fire attack that is centred on the player, not ranged)

Or, can I just propose this as a new class?

I wonder what an ice equivalent would look like:
Ice/Earth Reaver (Transmutations oriented)
a) dagger of freezing
b) Book of Ice Reaving:
- sandblast
- passwall
- condensation shield
- ice form
c) +0 animal skin
d) a potion of porridge
e) a meat ration

These would have distinctly different playstyles.

Fire gets bread cuz he can bake it, Ice gets meat cuz he spearfished it through the ice in the barren north. Fire gets scroll of immolation that can be used once he finds resistance, Ice gets a potion of porridge (living up north you need extra energy and you pack extra food. Maybe some other potion would be appropriate (cure mutation?).
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Post Friday, 14th January 2011, 21:14

Re: New hybrid summoner background and a Reaver rework.

Maybe we need some new melee-support conjurations instead of simply creating new books? How about these -

Explosive Flames - Creates "landmines" in an area around the Reaver. (Although this one does admittedly stack the favor of Reavers to fire...)
Numbing Frost - Does small damage to a monster(s?), then paralyzes after a certain number of turns.
Wind Column - Creates a one tile "column" of wind, ranged projectiles have a 90% chance of being deflected away. Anyone standing in it suffers lower accuracy and maybe EV.
Sandstorm - Blinds an enemy/lowers accuracy. (?)

Et cetera. Some of these (especially Wind Column) might be a bit overpowered, but I think that they fit the idea of Reavers. Maybe they should elemental generalists, though?
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Post Saturday, 15th January 2011, 11:02

Re: New hybrid summoner background and a Reaver rework.

danr wrote:Hm... Interesting. Now I'm starting to imagine the reaver as something like a "Fire Warrior".

Now, would this be crazy? What if they started with a dagger of flame? It would be unique as a class to start with a branded weapon, but it's only a dagger, I don't think the flame brand on a dagger would do much more than buff it to something like a +0,+1 short sword. It would add flavour though and help a bit more against early undead monsters.

So, to summarize, starting equipment:
Fire/Air Reaver (Conjurations oriented)
a) +0 dagger of flaming
b) Book of Reaving:
- flame tongue
- conjure flame
- static discharge
- sticky flame
c) a +0 robe (should be red)
d) 1 scroll of immolation
e) a bread ration

I believe flame tongue actually does decent damage, it's main limitation is the short range. Looking through the list of fire spells, "Ring of Fire" seems thematic too but it's level 8.

I like the scroll of immolation - the fire reaver has this pre-identified, and it's another (single-use) fire attack that is centred on the player, not ranged)


I really like the book. The fire brand is probably too much for a starting equipment, even on a dagger. The scroll of immolation is a nice idea, unfortunately, low level players can kill themselves with one, that's why they don't generate in shallow levels and shouldn't be in starting equipments.
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Post Saturday, 15th January 2011, 18:30

Re: New hybrid summoner background and a Reaver rework.

danr, Ring of Flames is level 7 in trunk, and while I haven't considered it too much, I think it makes sense at level 6 (same level as Freezing Cloud; Freezing Cloud is ranged and flood-fills (so you can quickly fill huge spaces with it) but Ring of Flames works more smoothly with melee, gives flame cloud immunity, a fire enhancer, and rF++ rC--)

Un67, elemental generalists are problematic due to anti-training

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Post Saturday, 15th January 2011, 19:27

Re: New hybrid summoner background and a Reaver rework.

minmay wrote:I would very much like to see starting books that use fire+air and ice+earth. Consider using Shock in that fire book instead of Flame Tongue, as it works well with characters comfortable in melee (stand next to an enemy to keep them in position for bouncing).


I thought the general combo was always fire+earth and ice+air but then again using these combos would be a nice change of pace in skill development for conjurers.
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Post Saturday, 15th January 2011, 22:22

Re: New hybrid summoner background and a Reaver rework.

Cool, sounds like we may be on to something. The reason I didn't opt for shock is that it has a long range, and my concept was to restrict it to melee range spells (I didn't realize about the bouncing though.) It would be good to have another air spell so it truly is a mix, just like the ice version.

I also like the parity of each flavour having an L1 spell that has a way of being boosted with a certain cost (wielding a stone, or with shock, standing in melee range for the bounce tactic. That really enhances the theme.

Now, re: the dagger of flame - is it that powerful? CK's get a +2 hand axe, and MfCKs get a +2 trident. MfCr get a trident to which they can add either flame or frost brand. Tridents are way better than any other starting weapon to begin with.

My understanding is that flame adds something like +25% on average, which I think would be in the same ballpark then as a shortsword.

Compared to a Crusader, a Reaver would get a weapon that has a permanent brand, but is restricted to one brand, and has lower base damage. I think that's a pretty even trade-off.

Anyhow, it sounds like this concept has some promise. Should I move the concept to the Wiki for more focused refinement?

BTW, I had no idea about the general combo being Fire/ Earth. These books were purely a result of what seemed to make sense thematically in terms of combinations that seemed to work for the close-range combat magic concept. Also, to me, fire/air fit because they are both sort of insubstantial elements and offense-focused, while earth/ice are both solid and have a more defensive flavour. This would be true even of the weapons - early on, there are monsters that take more damage from fire, while ice susceptibilty provides more of a defensive boost by slowing cold-blooded monsters.

For this message the author danr has received thanks:
Lawman 0
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Dungeon Master

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Location: France

Post Saturday, 15th January 2011, 23:10

Re: New hybrid summoner background and a Reaver rework.

ok, you've got a point with the dagger a flaming, looks like it's ok.
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...

Lair Larrikin

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Joined: Monday, 10th January 2011, 18:17

Post Sunday, 16th January 2011, 00:13

Re: New hybrid summoner background and a Reaver rework.

danr wrote:Cool, sounds like we may be on to something. The reason I didn't opt for shock is that it has a long range, and my concept was to restrict it to melee range spells (I didn't realize about the bouncing though.) It would be good to have another air spell so it truly is a mix, just like the ice version.

I also like the parity of each flavour having an L1 spell that has a way of being boosted with a certain cost (wielding a stone, or with shock, standing in melee range for the bounce tactic. That really enhances the theme.

Now, re: the dagger of flame - is it that powerful? CK's get a +2 hand axe, and MfCKs get a +2 trident. MfCr get a trident to which they can add either flame or frost brand. Tridents are way better than any other starting weapon to begin with.

My understanding is that flame adds something like +25% on average, which I think would be in the same ballpark then as a shortsword.

Compared to a Crusader, a Reaver would get a weapon that has a permanent brand, but is restricted to one brand, and has lower base damage. I think that's a pretty even trade-off.

Anyhow, it sounds like this concept has some promise. Should I move the concept to the Wiki for more focused refinement?

BTW, I had no idea about the general combo being Fire/ Earth. These books were purely a result of what seemed to make sense thematically in terms of combinations that seemed to work for the close-range combat magic concept. Also, to me, fire/air fit because they are both sort of insubstantial elements and offense-focused, while earth/ice are both solid and have a more defensive flavour. This would be true even of the weapons - early on, there are monsters that take more damage from fire, while ice susceptibilty provides more of a defensive boost by slowing cold-blooded monsters.


Just stick em all up there and let the rest of the devs take em apart. :lol:
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Post Sunday, 16th January 2011, 06:22

Re: New hybrid summoner background and a Reaver rework.


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