The Tavern

Curio wrote:hm. You tried to use magic mapping scroll on that level?

magic mapping don't reveal secret doors.

I think this is precisely the reason some people have been complaining about that change. If the only way to a branch entrance is behind a secret door, magic mapping should at least show you there's an inaccessible area there. Otherwise you're forced to do what- search for possible secret doors on 5 levels?

This was done to make T&D more relevant, but I doubt that it was a good idea. Magic mapping from a scroll should still map what's behind the door even if not the door itself. However, passive mapping probably shouldn't.

Yup, magic mapping should reveal spaces behind hidden doors. It reveals isolated bubbles e.g. in Orc right?

Honestly, I don't mind if passive mapping or a crystal ball can't find secret places. However, magic mapping via scroll is already restricted by quantity, and finding secret things is exactly what you expect it to do.

Magic mapping is MAGIC after all, i think it should expose most secret areas. However there could be a special MAGIC vaults and hidden areas which would not be exposed.

One time i played ashenzari and i noticed oh wow there is LOTS of secret stuff that i usually miss!

Magic mapping should map "secret" areas, otherwise the application is inconsistent. The player has no idea what is considered "secret" or not.

I personally feel that T&D should be dropped as a skill and trap detection should be based on other skills/attributes.

fnwc wrote:I personally feel that T&D should be dropped as a skill and trap detection should be based on other skills/attributes.

Here's the thread on that:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1442

What is the purpose of the Magic Mapping scroll if it doesn't map the entire area? To sprint to an staircase if you're on the run?

At the very least it should be changed to "Mundane Mapping". Or replace it with a scroll that indicated the shortest path to the nearest staircase/exit.

Magic Mapping should work based on Evocations and should deliver mapping based on a spray pattern not unlike the mapping mutation.

smock wrote:What is the purpose of the Magic Mapping scroll if it doesn't map the entire area? To sprint to an staircase if you're on the run?

The 2 main uses are announced portals and branch ends.

XuaXua wrote:Magic Mapping should work based on Evocations

Why? Evocation is used for wands, rods and misc items not scrolls. We want to boost evocation by strengthening its current effects, not water it down by giving it a small effect on a wide range of things.

XuaXua wrote:should deliver mapping based on a spray pattern not unlike the mapping mutation.

It kinda does but it's very dense. It used to be centered on the player so that if you read it in the corner of the map, the opposite corner was poorly mapped. Now, it's independent on location which is a good thing. We could reduce its density, or its radius so that edges of the map are less densely mapped, but I'm not sure it's really necessary. They are quite rare, and with too thin mapping they become quite useless.

For the most part, Scrolls don't emulate any spells you can memorize, which is why I think Scrolls should train evocation. They're evoked one time and done.

I wonder why people get so worked up about missing some chambers from the ?MM change. First, the scroll is rare and is extremely useful the way it is now: you can use it strategically (to make a difficult level safer, this often applies to branch ends); you can also use it tactically (if I get shafted and the situation looks like it could become dangerous, I like to blow a ?MM in order to know where to head at). Apart from these, there are announced portal vaults.

Regarding ?MM and secret chambers, either choice is possible. However, please try to be sane in judgement: the current ?MM is much more useful than you give it credits for. And the change did make T&D a little bit better. (Galehar: even if you revert that change, passive mapping from mutation or racial ability should skip secret rooms, in my opinion. Personally, I would not give in here, but it's your choice

It's not that people are worked up about missing some chambers, it's when they can't find a branch entry and start burning scrolls looking for it. They are really expecting the scrolls to reveal the area they couldn't find.
It's probably the least effective way of using the scrolls of MM, because in all the examples you've mentioned they are much more useful.
Also, not doubt about keeping this feature exclusive to scrolls. Passive mapping won't reveal secret stuff.

Is there a difference between the effectiveness of the spell Magic Mapping and the scroll Magic Mapping? Or do both of them equally reveal (or fail to reveal) layouts and features?

Mackerel: The _spell_ is gone, but not just from the recent version 0.8, but also one version before

Out of curiosity, are there any items that help find secret areas? Or is that entirely T&D?

smock wrote:Out of curiosity, are there any items that help find secret areas? Or is that entirely T&D?

The wand of digging will find what you're looking for! If the secret door is next to a rock wall, anyway. Otherwise you've still got high-level earth magic and controlled teleports into any promising-looking formation.

smock wrote:Out of curiosity, are there any items that help find secret areas? Or is that entirely T&D?

There's the crystal ball of seeing.

galehar wrote:
smock wrote:Out of curiosity, are there any items that help find secret areas? Or is that entirely T&D?

There's the crystal ball of seeing.

Oh, right. I forgot. I haven't found one of those in ages!

KoboldLord wrote:The wand of digging will find what you're looking for! If the secret door is next to a rock wall, anyway. Otherwise you've still got high-level earth magic and controlled teleports into any promising-looking formation.

Digging! Duh. Add to that list passwall, scrying and vitrification. I assume that the map card is just like magic mapping and so won't work.

Not so limited, but evocations, Ash, Nemelx, or earth magic are required for most of them to work.

The Tavern

Magic Mapping and Secret Doors

Magic Mapping and Secret Doors

Magic Mapping and Secret Doors

Magic Mapping and Secret Doors

Magic Mapping and Secret Doors

Magic Mapping and Secret Doors

Re: Can't find lair entrance?

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