Remove -Tele from Randart Armor Generation

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Basically, what the title says. -Tele is uninteresting in the same way that Contam is uninteresting - there is basically no amount of good stuff that can be on a piece of long-swap equipment that would override the effect of -Tele. The end result is that unless you're a formicid (which is basically proof that -tele is cripplingly nasty), -Tele basically says "you can't wear this".

If interfering with translocations is an interesting idea, maybe make it either -cTele, or add the translocation-delaying ability from abyss / orb. Maybe -Tele could be replaced with an effect that tacks on +1 turn to blinking and +1d3 turns to teleport? It would be a good way of keeping the effect similar and tactically relevant, but making it "something to consider" rather than "completely useless".

This would also make Maxwell's Patent Armour not quite as much of a wearable coffin for non-Formicids.

[Sar]

Actually if the armour in question is really good and you found it early enough it might be very much worth wearing.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Actually if the armour in question is really good and you found it early enough it might be very much worth wearing.

I'm really trying to think of armor good enough to consider wearing with -Tele. Christ, Maxwell's is insanely good outside of the -Tele and it's still not enough.

Friend found +2 boots of -Tele rF+ rC+ Str+3 and I still couldn't in good conscience tell him they were worth wearing. The same boots with Delay would maybe make them at least tactically interesting.

[duvessa]

Negative randart properties are pointless on weapons and jewellery imo unless they're combined with Contam; since you can swap them, all they do is make the item more annoying without changing its power level (except in really rare edge cases like wiz combined with int-7 or whatever, but in those cases it's the same as just generating worse positive properties...). If -tele -cast -stat etc. are going to exist at all then they should only be on items that can't be removed for free in 3 or 5 aut.

It's hard to discuss the design of crawl equipment because I don't have any idea what it is actually trying to do as far as introducing decisions or even simple things like how often swapping is supposed to be useful, and after everything I have heard from developers on this matter (on the mailing list, ##crawl-dev, wiki, tavern, etc), I am 100% convinced that they don't have any idea either. I definitely don't think jewellery, artefacts, or non-body armour add any difficult decisions to the game.

[Sar]

Maxwell can be really great in early, possibly midgame as well. After that, I'm not sure it's a good choice, though it's certainly possible.

[Sprucery]

-Tele armour is fine if you don't have any means of teleportation :)

[mps]

Yeah, I think I mentioned this in a previous thread -- armor with -Tele is crazy unless you're a formicid (in which case you're already crazy). Or worship Lugonu, maybe?

related question: Is the artifact generation algorithm reasonably explainable beyond a pointer to source code?

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Yeah, I think I mentioned this in a previous thread -- armor with -Tele is crazy unless you're a formicid (in which case you're already crazy). Or worship Lugonu, maybe?

related question: Is the artifact generation algorithm reasonably explainable beyond a pointer to source code?

I took a look. Basically, it goes like this:

1: The item to be artefacted is passed in.
2: The quality of the resulting item (enchantment level, good properties) is rolled between 1 and 7.
3: The number of bad properties is rolled - up to 2 bad properties, with a higher likelihood of bad properties on an artefact marked as "good".
4: The number of good properties is generated, based on the quality + number of bad properties.
5: "Excessive" properties are turned into improvements to other properties, so that the chance of getting more than 4 good properties on an item is reduced.
6: If it's a weapon, add a brand.
7: The properties are randomly generated, until the correct number of good / bad properties are attached.
7a: The type of property is rolled. (resist, stat bonus, etc)
7b: Veto certain properties based on the item type or the game type (no -tele on jewellery because it's trivial, no rpois or sinv on naga barding because they already have both innately, no -tele in sprint because sprint has innate -tele, etc)
7c: Decide whether or not to generate a good or bad property.
7d: If the property can be good or bad, roll for goodness (rF+ vs rf-)
7e: Remove the property from the list of rollable properties.

That's the whole thing.

[mps]

Hm, doesn't sound obviously problematic to me, except for some details about how pluses are generated and bad effects that consistently make some items totally useless. Maybe some of the bad properties, like -tele, should carry greater weight (like count as two bad properties), since it takes a really crazy item to make -tele a reasonable price to pay.

[KittenInMyCerealz]

Just make Swapping take 10 auts for all items.
It's boring, tedious, and yet optimal.
I have yet to come across a good reason why 1aut swapping should exist.

[Berder]

Fast swapping is needed because one pip of resistance can cut damage by 50%. If it weren't possible to swap to your ring of fire when you see a fire giant, it would instead be optimal to retreat back to the stairs, go up, then swap to your ring of fire, then come back down to fight it. Talk about tedious - that's tedious. Also, amulet of stasis would be completely useless without fast swapping.

[KittenInMyCerealz]

Fast swapping is needed because one pip of resistance can cut damage by 50%. If it weren't possible to swap to your ring of fire when you see a fire giant, it would instead be optimal to retreat back to the stairs, go up, then swap to your ring of fire, then come back down to fight it. Talk about tedious - that's tedious. Also, amulet of stasis would be completely useless without fast swapping.

in 99% of cases i wouldn't do what you described if swapping too 10 auts. but in 99% of cases i would swap the ring if it took 1aut.(and carry 90% of the rings and amulets i find)
amulet of stasis is completely useless in 99% of cases even with fast swapping.

[spudwalt]

I'd use a -Tele artifact if there was enough other good stuff on it (like lots of resistances or evokable abilities -- those nifty boots mentioned earlier are something I'd wear). Of course, having other escape methods (like high movement speed or Passage of Golubria) would help in case of emergencies.

Then again, I've never done much in the post-game areas, so I don't really know how necessary teleports are once you get there. I would at least consider using something else if I knew for sure I was going to need to teleport/blink in one of those areas.

[grisamentum]

To me Maxwell's is fine for melee characters; I've won games wearing it from Lair through ascent. The problem is that the vast majority of randart armor is nowhere near as good as Maxwell's.

[Kolbur]

2 of my 3 last won games were won with -tele armour items (one even with 15 runes). There are ways to work around it, that's what it makes an interesting choice to me.

[dowan]

It's not that -tele is deadly, it's that being able to teleport and blink can turn a deadly situation not-deadly.
If the item in question prevents these deadly situations, then I suppose it's worth having -tele on it. But since no item in the game can prevent me from making stupid mistakes, I need to be able to teleport!

[floatRand]

Well, I'd just make it rarer. Maybe split it into two intristics, -TELE that is identical to original -TELE, and -cTELE that disables controlled teleports ( blinks, delays teleports etc ), -cTELE being more common but 'lingering' for 5-10, maybe inflicting Dim. Anchor for short time. Maybe same with -TELE, but with longer Dim. Anchor?
It wouldn't be as drastic while still staying as rather dramatic setback.

[Siegurt]

How about Limited Range as a property, where it limits blinks to like 3 squares away, and teleports to (as an example) 10 squares (At a maximum)?

That'd function as an effective negative property, without completely negating teleportation