Make the Robe of Misfortune not unambiguously bad?

[Pereza0]

I know its part of the flavor, but in practice this thing gets the same treatment any shitty randart does (identify->drop). Not very interesting. I think unrandarts should try to aim for a little more than that

I propose making it work differently instead. Instead of being just plain bad it should have drastic drawbacks and advantages.

Here is something along the lines I would make it work like if it was up to me:

Enchantment level:
Something from 0 to -2. 0 would be fine by me, wearing the most basic armor type in the game with no positive enchantment is already bad enough. It is no identified on sight like all other unrandarts

Bad properties, along the lines of the old one, but more manageable:
Curse Contam -2 EV -2 STR -2 DEX -2 INT -Wiz (no spellcasting is too much) -Stealth -MR (maybe this instead of *Tele)
It is also an evil item now, good gods look down on its use.

Good properties:
Completely shields the user from torment and absorbs death curses
Maybe it could also provide rN+++ if having torment resistance but no rN is seen as confusing.

Flavour:
I am not very good with words, but it should basically state something like "Its origins lost in time, this ancient robe predates the existence of the dungeon that holds it. Having witnessed unmeasurable pain and agony this once desirable item has turned into something dark and twisted, a blight on in existence of its wearers. Yet these same properties have made it very effective at shielding further curses and torment, making it desirable in the eyes of some adventurers - and perpetuating the cycle"

[jejorda2]

A robe with those properties is an excellent idea. Even though many characters can trade the stat and raw defense penalties for the curse and torment protection, Stealth and especially MR make it a hard question.

But I kind of like having the "good for nothing" joke item around as another unrand. Maybe keep Misfortune, and call what you propose the Robe of Woe.

[Sandman25]

I don't think it is a good idea to have an item which is better than level 8 dual school spell.

[grisamentum]

I don't think it is a good idea to have an item which is better than level 8 dual school spell.

why not? plenty of evocables are

[Sandman25]

why not? plenty of evocables are

They are evokables i.e. they become inactive after use and require training Evocations to be really useful. I think it would be better if the robe provided a chance to resist Torment and the chance depended on some skill (Necromancy?). Of course the chance should not be too high even with maxed skill

[Sar]

I don't think it is a good idea to have an item which is better than level 8 dual school spell.

I don't know about you but i would prefer getting tormented a bit to having no AC, shit spellpower and MR-.

Anyway, the unique part of Misfortune is that it's not identified, unlike other fixedarts. So people will wear it from time to time and go "huh Crawl really hates you sometimes". It's just that and I think it's fine.

[Pereza0]

I don't think it is a good idea to have an item which is better than level 8 dual school spell.

The stats I just wrote up without thinking too hard about them, they could be balanced of course.
But the idea here is that you basically sacrifice your body armour slot entirely (along with a few bad effects), Torment is no longer a concern but physical and other types of damage are, more than ever - in fact, I was concerned with this item being too much of a "trap". I don't see how good your defenses can get while wearing it but not very much I would expect.

[Sandman25]

Torment is no longer a concern but physical and other types of damage are, more than ever - in fact, I was concerned with this item being too much of a "trap". I don't see how good your defenses can get while wearing it but not very much I would expect.

By the time you are in extended -2 EV/Str/Int/-Wiz are irrelevant for many characters. For instance, Na of Chei will always use the robe due to already high AC/EV/stats/spell success.
(Hat of Alchemist has the same problem, 99% characters wear it and don't care about -2 AC).

[Sar]

I probably won't wear that robe on a Na but I also probably wouldn't be following Chei on a Na so

[Pereza0]

By the time you are in extended -2 EV/Str/Int/-Wiz are irrelevant for many characters. For instance, Na of Chei will always use the robe due to already high AC/EV/stats/spell success.
(Hat of Alchemist has the same problem, 99% characters wear it and don't care about -2 AC).

The -2 stuff is not the biggest penalty. Having to wear an unenchanted robe as armour at that point in the game is the biggest penalty. As a Naga of Chei you could go for incredible AC and good spellcasting, this will get you mediocre AC instead. And mediocre AC is pretty bad when you are moving at Naga of Chei speed.

Besides, balance is not the huge concern for unrandarts it is for other things. You are not guaranteed to find them in the first place and there are many randarts without any disadvantage to them whatsoever

[KittenInMyCerealz]

Torment doesn't exist, why is this a problem?
Shitton of things are unbalanced in the post-game, and trading most of you ac + other stuff for rTorment is a very interesting tradeoff (though most characters would never use it)

[and into]

The more wide-ranging discussion of the value of AC/EV for different characters has been split off to DCA:

https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=15622&p=213210#p213210


Please continue that discussion in the new thread, so that this one can be reserved for more directly relevant discussion of OP's proposal. Thank you!

[bcadren]

Torment doesn't exist, why is this a problem?
Shitton of things are unbalanced in the post-game, and trading most of you ac + other stuff for rTorment is a very interesting tradeoff (though most characters would never use it)

Acting like things that mostly show up in late to post-game "don't exist" is a weird mentality to me. If you are really that three-rune centric, Torment at least affects you in that you won't do Tomb as your 2nd or 3rd rune unless you are a powerful Necromancer or did an undead start (or both). You'll also see it if you do the Abyss and have a (small) chance of seeing it in Elf and during the ascent.

Anyways; yea I'd consider major trade-offs for rTorm on a lot of characters. Hell; I've trained for Necromut LITERALLY JUST for Tomb before because doing that place without Torment resistance is pretty suicidal.

[nagdon]

I don't think that Tomb is relevant in 3-rune games. The huge swarms of smiting/tormenting foes who cannot be mass-blasted quickly because of the death curses are very dangerous, and the new foes aren't better. Death scarabs were especially lethal against my last character (purple Dr summoner) who visited the tomb. I think even some hells are easier than Tomb, at least there only at most 2-3 torment-casters attack you at once and you can quickly kill them with high-level conjurations (and they can't torment you with death curses).

[bcadren]

I don't think that Tomb is relevant in 3-rune games. The huge swarms of smiting/tormenting foes who cannot be mass-blasted quickly because of the death curses are very dangerous, and the new foes aren't better. Death scarabs were especially lethal against my last character (purple Dr summoner) who visited the tomb. I think even some hells are easier than Tomb, at least there only at most 2-3 torment-casters attack you at once and you can quickly kill them with high-level conjurations (and they can't torment you with death curses).

Tomb is -very- easy if you are a Kiku Necromancer with Necromut. Relatively easy with one of the two (including just starting as a Ghoul). Torment is the reason it's extremely hard for the living; it's not that bad for an undead character. Try a GhEE^Vehu. Should be able to kill everything without TERRIBLY much risk between Shatter, Lehu's and B.Magma.

[mps]

Tomb is very easy w/ kiku, no matter what you do. Easier than V:5, maybe not easier than slime. The whole game is kind of easy with kiku, but I guess that's another matter...

[Connecting this back to the OP: Completely shielding the player from torment is better than the kiku passive and better than than the protection offered by being undead or necromutation, since you don't get any of the downsides, e.g. no potions. Maybe it works, but I'm a little sceptical.]

[Siegurt]

Robe of eternal torment:
Max hp -50%,
Immune to torment


(Actually I think that would work better as like an amulet or something, -50% Max hp and no heavy armour kind of sucks)

[mps]

Hm, so an object I can wear so it's as if I was tormented last turn every turn in exchange for torment immunity... Not sure I'd want to use that.

[jejorda2]

But the advantage is that torment can't take you to 25% and 12.5% and 6.25% HP! I wouldn't wear a robe, but a crown or an amulet might be tempting. If I have enough HP and defenses to use such a thing, it probably means the character needs heavy armour.

I think "bad ideas which are tempting" are exactly what most fixed artefacts should be.

If it stopped regeneration at 50%, but allowed potions or wands or deities or vampirism to heal all the way to 100% (a la permafood or gourmand) it would open up more strategies.

[mps]

Yeah, I get the upside, but you're sacrificing 50% of hp to avoid attacks that can cause at most 25% of hp worth of damage. Doesn't make sense to me and that's forgetting about rN.

I agree with the general principle that totally useless artifacts are bad and "bad" artifacts should be carefully crafted to make strategic sense in some situations. I'm just thinking this isn't one of those cases. I could see an amulet that gives you torment resistance or immunity but torments you when you put it on in addition to other downsides, maybe "regen-," but not reducing your hp by 50% whenever you have it on.

[bcadren]

I think "bad ideas which are tempting" are exactly what most fixed artefacts should be.

ZONGULDROK! Yea give take is interesting; yes. Not all of them need to be like that; but it is more interesting than unambiguously good or bad.

[Siegurt]

But the advantage is that torment can't take you to 25% and 12.5% and 6.25% HP! I wouldn't wear a robe, but a crown or an amulet might be tempting. If I have enough HP and defenses to use such a thing, it probably means the character needs heavy armour.

I think "bad ideas which are tempting" are exactly what most fixed artefacts should be.

If it stopped regeneration at 50%, but allowed potions or wands or deities or vampirism to heal all the way to 100% (a la permafood or gourmand) it would open up more strategies.

Oooh, yeah, I like the sound of that: "the crown of eternal torment"

The +2 crown of eternal torment:
A +2 hat that gives you -50% max hps and torment immunity.

Plus it sounds bad ass

[Rast]

The HP penalty doesn't have to be a full 50%. Fixedarts are supposed to be at least decent in some circumstances.

Make it -20% HP, torment immunity, maybe evokable torment that gives exhaustion.

[Sar]

as long as you don't ruin misfortune

[1010011010]

Robe of misfortune doesn't just effect you when worn. enemies have may miscast spells.

[bananaken]

Robe of misfortune doesn't just effect you when worn. enemies have may miscast spells.

I like this idea, kinda like Fallout series and the jinxed trait. The robe might still require slight buffs since the negatives are still pretty extreme, but if the robe occasionally caused enemies in your LOS to have all sorts of "critical misses" it'd be pretty hilarious and even marginally useful.

Spells may turn into miscasts, attacks with ranged weapons may drop all their ammo, melee weapons may be dropped, etc.

Unlike Fallout, Crawl doesn't have SPECIAL stats (most importantly the luck stat), so the whole "critical misses" stuff would be implemented solely for this robe, which sounds like too much work just for one gimmick. Still, just a thought!