No, but seriously, remove Ballistomycetes

[Arrhythmia]

They're an awful enemy that breaks autoexplore, autofighting, are only very rarely tactically relevant, and do not give any XP. Giant spores as a regular spawn and ballistomycetes as a Fedhas ability can probably stay, since they are not so ridiculously offensive, but giant-spores creating ballistomycetes during regular games needs to go.

[Berder]

A giant spore in the face is pretty dangerous - heavy damage, confusion, plus noise that can attract more. Plus if the spore is behind an enemy you can sometimes detonate it on them.

Maybe as a compromise, change the mechanics of fungal colonies so that not many ballistomyctes spawn to interrupt your autoexplore, but you still have a similar number of giant spores. For example, let spores have only a partial chance to spawn a ballistomycte when they explode, but increase the rate at which active ballistomycetes create spores.

[mps]

Sounds like you're giving good reasons to spawn more giant spores, not remove the ballistomycetes.

[spudwalt]

Did they remove the XP for clearing a fungal colony?

[Arrhythmia]

Did they remove the XP for clearing a fungal colony?

Yes.

[Pereza0]

Maybe there could be a fixed number of blastomycelles when you enter a level (2 or 4, not too far apart) that will constantly spawn spores until you kill them but will not reproduce further

[Shard1697]

I would be alright with single blastomycelles which acted more like non-reproducing turret statues than the HP-clumps they are now.

[Grudge]

I personally do not mind ballistomycetes, but I do have a suggestion.

Remove ballistomycetes, and add giant spores as an ordinary enemy.

[jejorda2]

Spriggan druids (or some enemy) should summon spores. They are often interesting on their own, but they make a good "kill the source to get rid of the threatening minion" enemy. I don't know that I've ever seen a ballistomycetes spawn a spore in 6k online games.

At any rate, I agree that spores should stick around as regular enemies if ballistomycetes are removed.

[mechanicalmaniac]

I like ballistomycete colonies because their reproductive, collectively-linked makes them so different from all the other monsters in the dungeon. I think there ought to be a whole genus of similarly idiosyncratic fungal monsters -- after seeing ballistomycetes and wandering mushrooms, I actually expected there to be more, and was disappointed when I found out there weren't.

If there were more we could probably bring back the "f" glyph for the things.

Did they remove the XP for clearing a fungal colony?

Yes.

I don't like the reasoning they gave for this. They say that it's a large profit gained for minimal risk -- which is true enough, but picking up, say, a randart is a potentially very large profit gained for no risk at all. Before this change was made, whenever I saw a ballistomycete colony, I went, "Oh look, blasting caps! Jackpot!" Now I just go, "Oh look, blasting caps. Better clear 'em out before they spread, I guess." I suppose you could argue that it's tedious, but in this case that's highly subjective -- except now that blasting caps provide zero reward whatsoever, they really ARE a nuisance. They're like shadow traps; they do nothing but threaten and drain resources.

[Greyr]

I don't like the reasoning they gave for this. They say that it's a large profit gained for minimal risk -- which is true enough, but picking up, say, a randart is a potentially very large profit gained for no risk at all. Before this change was made, whenever I saw a ballistomycete colony, I went, "Oh look, blasting caps! Jackpot!" Now I just go, "Oh look, blasting caps. Better clear 'em out before they spread, I guess." I suppose you could argue that it's tedious, but in this case that's highly subjective -- except now that blasting caps provide zero reward whatsoever, they really ARE a nuisance. They're like shadow traps; they do nothing but threaten and drain resources.

Thanked unironically.

[bcadren]

I don't like the reasoning they gave for this. They say that it's a large profit gained for minimal risk -- which is true enough, but picking up, say, a randart is a potentially very large profit gained for no risk at all. Before this change was made, whenever I saw a ballistomycete colony, I went, "Oh look, blasting caps! Jackpot!" Now I just go, "Oh look, blasting caps. Better clear 'em out before they spread, I guess." I suppose you could argue that it's tedious, but in this case that's highly subjective -- except now that blasting caps provide zero reward whatsoever, they really ARE a nuisance. They're like shadow traps; they do nothing but threaten and drain resources.

Also we are talking about what? 200XP? It's not like it's a free !Experience (which you still can find on floor of the dungeon or be randomly given by Xom). I mean those are +750 XP x (new level) [to spend on skills] not sure how much it is in normal numbers; it's set to enough to raise exactly one level though. I mean yes; Ballistos are more common than !Exp, but 200 XP is a little less than 2 ogres worth and most characters can kill ogres by D:4 (even if the method involves wands or Poison darts).

Anyways, I personally like Ballistos in most cases. Actually being hit with a spore is at best a small hassle 3d15 and confusion isn't negligible until rather late; but allowing it to engulf you AND an enemy is an interesting choice for potential crowd contol. And they produce a LOT of noise without that noise being focused on you. (Results in everything on the floor being woken up if you let spores randomly wander. Which means; unless you are an Enchanter; having enemies naturally wander instead of being grouped together is quite a positive. When I'm ^Fedhas; I usually create a new colony close to first thing on every floor for this reason; wandering spores are rarely directly helpful; but having Ballistos around is a slight advantage for most characters that adds up.

[Shard1697]

I did like the XP-pinatas that shrooms were before. They were changed because I guess of a theoretical very small minority playing in a way that was tedious, but ever since the change ballistomycetes are tedious for everyone.

[Sprucery]

But you only got experience from destroying the whole colony, so there was no point in letting them multiply anyway. I really don't understand why the experience was taken away.

[Sar]

Thanked mechanicalmaniac for the first part of the post.

[Rast]

If the 200 xp was too much, they should have lowered it to 100, or 50, or whatever. Instead of 0.

[duvessa]

As the commit message said, there is no risk involved in killing ballistomycetes. Any reward is too much, and of course they shouldn't exist at all.

[Rast]

There's the risk of dying in an explosion.

[Sprucery]

...or getting confused and attacked by something the explosion alerted.

[Arrhythmia]

Giant spores are not Ballistomycetes everyone, why is there this confusion?

[bcadren]

Giant spores are not Ballistomycetes everyone, why is there this confusion?

You're telling me you've never died or even been hit while cleaning up Ballistos? Had the active one spawn on you at close range? ...seriously?

[Arrhythmia]

Giant spores are not Ballistomycetes everyone, why is there this confusion?

You're telling me you've never died or even been hit while cleaning up Ballistos? Had the active one spawn on you at close range? ...seriously?

The bar of tolerance I have for monsters that break autoexplore and autofight is set somewhere around "the monster also gives sloppy blowjobs", not "the monster was tactically relevant once".

[Shard1697]

Giant spores are not Ballistomycetes everyone, why is there this confusion?

You're telling me you've never died or even been hit while cleaning up Ballistos? Had the active one spawn on you at close range? ...seriously?

I cannot remember a ballistomycete ever spawning a giant spore in LoS, much less giving me trouble. Whenever there are a bunch of ballistomycetes in sight, I just push down tab and don't let go until there are none on my screen anymore.

To be honest until now I thought they couldn't spawn spores when in sight.

[duvessa]

Giant spores are not Ballistomycetes everyone, why is there this confusion?

You're telling me you've never died or even been hit while cleaning up Ballistos? Had the active one spawn on you at close range? ...seriously?

I'm not Arrhythmia but I have in the neighbourhood of 3600 online games since ballistomycetes were introduced, and no, I've never had either of those things happen as far as I can remember. I've also never seen it happen to anybody else.

[Siegurt]

I have had it happen, exactly twice, one time it almost killed me, the other time I was immune to the confusion, and the damage was insignificant.

I have also been hit and even killed a number of times by spores that were generated out of my los.

[sanka]

If the problem is that they produce spores very rarely while in LOS, why not try to make them spam much more frequently when in LOS?

That's said I do not really like enemies that try to conquer the whole level but I think the original intention was something like that you should leave the level if you are too weak to kill giant spores, because they (should) multiply fast.

[Quazifuji]

Giant spores are not Ballistomycetes everyone, why is there this confusion?

You're telling me you've never died or even been hit while cleaning up Ballistos? Had the active one spawn on you at close range? ...seriously?

I honestly can't remember that happening anyway. My feeling, and I get the impression that this opinion is shared by others, is that the problem with Ballistos is that they spawn giant spores so slowly that they are nearly indistinguishable (from a challenge standpoint) from giant spores just spawning as normal enemies.

Giant spores are an interesting mechanic. Linked fungal colonies are a potentially interesting mechanic. But Ballistomycetes, as currently implemented, add almost nothing to the giant spore mechanic, while doing nothing interesting that takes advantage of the unique linked colony idea.

Scrap Ballistomycetes. Let Giant Spores spawn as a normal enemy in areas where ballistomycetes currently spawn. Consider adding enemies later in the game that can summon giant spores (maybe Fedhas worshipers who summon them from corpses), or other fungal colonies that make better use of the mechanics.

[Sprucery]

I saw a ballistomycete spawning spores not too long ago. Before that, I don't remember what was the last time (it was long ago).

I'm all for increasing the rate. Make ballistomycetes act like turrets.

[mechanicalmaniac]

As the commit message said, there is no risk involved in killing ballistomycetes. Any reward is too much, and of course they shouldn't exist at all.

By that logic we should also remove flame-guarded/rock-encased/island vaults (you either have the resources to get in or you don't), randarts (see my post), and oh I don't know, valuable items generating lying on the floor.

[roctavian]

You're comparing monsters to items.

[mechanicalmaniac]

Monsters provide EXP. EXP is a resource. Items are also resources. Both monsters and items are given to the player by the game.

[duvessa]

Monsters require additional work (killing them) to get the XP. If this is not risky then it is grinding and axiomatically bad by the design goals of the game. Items are not supposed to (in practice they often do, but that is also a bad thing that needs to be fixed).

[Berder]

Just make active ballistomycetes make spores at a much higher rate when the player is in LOS. And bring back the XP for killing a colony. There, now they're dangerous and worthwhile!

[Sprucery]

Ballistomycetes have an interesting mechanic: kill them fast or they fill up the level. The problem is that they're not dangerous even when they multiply. Imho they should spawn giant spores much more rapidly so that they would present actual danger. Also, killing the colony should give some experience.

Edit: Berder was faster.

[Arrhythmia]

god bless you reaver

[Sar]

RIP

[Sprucery]

But why were giant spores also removed? There's nothing wrong with giant spores imo (the confusing explosion without ballistomycetes).

[reaver]

I've generally found giant spores to be "hit them with a stone or other ranged attack to take no damage".

Also if the giant spore did hit you there often wouldn't be enough nearby monsters to make the effect meaningful if it didn't insta-kill you.

Monster OOD is an effect which has the similar "honing projectile" mini-game except it works significantly better.

[bel]

What's the downside of having giant spores? They matter in some rare cases. Though I do agree that it is quite rare that they are threatening.

[Arrhythmia]

What's the downside of having giant spores?

it is quite rare that they are threatening.

[Sar]

it is quite rare that they are threatening

That's actually not true!

  Code:

91   stone giant   0.10%   4268
92   giant spore   0.10%   4067
93   manticore   0.09%   3925

[bel]

it is quite rare that they are threatening

That's actually not true!

  Code:

91   stone giant   0.10%   4268
92   giant spore   0.10%   4067
93   manticore   0.09%   3925

Woah.

[Sprucery]

I've generally found giant spores to be "hit them with a stone or other ranged attack to take no damage".

Sometimes I can't hit them before they're too close and I get confused. This is a good mechanic imo.

[johlstei]

Yeah giant spores are dangerous enough on early floors and if you hit them early you can confuse enemies instead. I like them.

[duvessa]

I've generally found giant spores to be "hit them with a stone or other ranged attack to take no damage".

Also if the giant spore did hit you there often wouldn't be enough nearby monsters to make the effect meaningful if it didn't insta-kill you.

Monster OOD is an effect which has the similar "honing projectile" mini-game except it works significantly better.

thanked for the first 2 lines, a homing projectile with simple, familiar movement rules is much better than a homing projectile with...whatever the hell OOD's movement is, i still haven't quite figured it out after more than 5 years

orb spiders should be renamed to spore spiders and make giant spores (and giant spores should not create fungal colonies)
or you can make them make ball lightning and rename them to ball spiders, whatever

[PleasingFungus]

mm, ball spiders