Buff Beogh

[bcadren]

I've said it before; I'll say it again. Beogh is a bit of a dinosaur that's kept around because he's flavour interesting; even though a lot of that flavour has now been stripped away (Orc Slaying Weapons and Orcish Armour no longer exist). As far as gods go he's fun for early game (Orc/Lair) but terribly weak even for midgame and his only Invocation is near worthless.

The really short version is that Beogh, for most practical circumstances plays like a gimped Yredelemnul. The permanent orcish followers are relatively weak compared to Yred's bone drakes, ghouls and servitors. The armour bonus is generally smaller than Ash's bonus to cursed armour; or just a couple enchant armour scrolls and smiting is probably the single weakest Invocation any god has, especially for the MP and Piety Cost. You do get the nice bonus of deciding your partner's equipment; but generally you can't expect them to survive past lair branches, unless you risk your life for them (definitely not optimal play); or get really lucky equipment spawns to throw together nice stuff for both you and some partners. It can be fun; but it still needs a buff for the power level to be a practical choice.

Smiting costs 3 MP and 3 Piety to do 6 + 1d(5 + Invocation Skill) [Max 38] damage. It has the nice bonus of being smite targeted and being irresistible (not blocked by any resistance, AC or EV; just like Hellfire). But with a max of 38 and average of 21 damage (again at max invo); it'd take several blasts to kill anything with any substantial HP and it's simply not worth the cost.

Afterall (Qazlal's) Upheaval damage in a radius 1 or 2 explosion for the same piety cost (and one more MP); for the same MP cost you could have Airstrike; which is just as weak in late game; but more reasonably spammable, being as it has no piety cost. And PProj paired with a decent ranged skill would have better effect as well. (Though admitted; actual spellcasting would take more XP cost to get to reasonable power and require wearing medium armour over heavy). But, it's still just not worth training the skill for smiting and it's comparatively weak compared both to other godly attack invocations; and all other smite-targeted options in general.

As to how to buff Beogh:

• Make smiting actually have more decent damage at reasonable Invo; with hellfire level (3d20) level dam at max. OR drop the MP and piety costs to make it more spammable like Makhleb's Lesser Destruction.
• Add additional Invocations. Most obviously applicable (thematically) that would be different than anything else the player has practically would be a communal song of slaying; similar to the orcish hymn warlords 'sing' to might lower HD Orcs; though in this case giving a slaying bonus for communal kills? Maybe? (Just an idea; no idea if it'd be worth it in practice.)
• Some other kind of invocation? Fitting with the "Jesus" theme; healing allies directly as an Invo could work (and help keep them alive longer).

I mean Yred gets three of the most powerful Invocations in the game and decent god-gifted perma-allies. Beogh gets the worst invocation in the game and passable early-to-midgame allies. Real power disparity which should be closed. NOT because all gods have to be equal, but because there isn't a practical reason to choose Beogh from a reasonable standpoint. All reasons to go 'orc-jesus' involve wanting the flavour associated with being 'orc-jesus' and not with the practicality of it; as Yred is better in almost all ways there (and still not that great of a choice for extended as the gifts get to being the same strength as enemy spawns rather than helpfully stronger and drain life doesn't work on undead/demons).

Can we discuss (1) if the buff is necessary and (2) how to buff without breaking the theme?

[Arrhythmia]

http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commit;h=2d413e0a87bfb5e079ffb8e4b6bdb194c402545c

close thread

[twelwe]

Its like someone put a one year delay on all your posts bcadren

[Pereza0]

I think Beogh is quite powerful as it stands honestly. Orc Warlords are the shit.

Smite is great, but its the kind of thing you use to get weak but strategically or in some other way threatening monsters (like boggarts, moths of wrath, shining eyes, neqoxecs, swamp drakes...) and leave the tougher hard-hitters to taste your axe.

I think it could do with some extra convenienve, like getting the ability to gift items and recall allies earlier.

Also, keep in mind that Beogh is orc exclusive and orcs get +3 to invocations

[mechanicalmaniac]

More invocations for Beogh would make him more interesting. I like the idea of the Hymn of Slaying.

[jejorda2]

What if smite did more damage when you have more allied priests in LOS? Maybe everybody gets a smite in every time you call for one.

[mps]

The opportunity to convert to Beogh comes early and more reliably than most other gods, via the ability to convert on contact with orc priests, so it's not as if there is literally no practical reason to go Beogh. Only Trog and Lugonu are more available, due to zealot backgrounds.

[edgefigaro]

Beogh is an early game god who can't justify his existence past the two lair runes. Smite is not a great * ability, and you really, really want to get to six pips quickly so you can get your horde from the mines.

That said, Beogh makes the first two runes somewhat trivial and fun, esp for newer players (my roommate loves tooling around with the horde.) I just wish he provided a little something something to span between lair runes and zot in a 3rune game.

[and into]

Well, one of the three proposals is outdated, but not the other two, so I see no reason to close thread.

The point mps raises about (on average) better and earlier availability of Beogh to HOs is worth keeping in mind.

[Lacuenta]

Like I've mentioned before; when they changed ally pickup behaviour they also nerfed Beogh.
You used to be able to give give your orcs any weapons or gear you liked, if you knew the tricks it was quite easy really.
I now tend to play older versions when i feel like starting up a Beoghite.

Things i think should change, and a few ideas:

1) Make gifting of gear not a one time thing: at the moment the best course of action seems to be to check orcish mines then filter out all the orcs which wear plate and/or branded weapons leave the rest behind, and train them one or two at a time preferably in lair or mid dungeon. So that they change into knights/warlords asap and beogh bestows his gifts only on the best. (lucky volcanos have really good orcs for this btw.) Maybe extend gifting to jewellary? It would be cool if you could take your orcs to hell and back!

2) Afaik Beogh cannot give ammo for launchers other then crossbows, maybe let him enchant launchers as well. Currently there's no reason to grant them that awesome bow/sling etc. you found but aren't using.

3) Priests and sorcerers are something of an annoyance, unless you gift one maxwells armour they are generally not worth taking with you. Maybe a nice invocation that makes them manageable/usefull would help. (i have no inspiration atm for such a thing)

4) I've noticed some cards now work for allies as well, maybe something could be done with an invocation which for example as an additional cost makes you quaff a potion to extend its effect on all your allies.

[mps]

It seems people who actually play Beogh are pretty keen on micromanaging the equipment of their orcs. As long as going Beogh is not optimal play, it doesn't seem obviously bad to me to allow them to do it more fully, especially if it's a very special property of the allies you get with Beogh, not offered to other types of allies.

One radical way to go about this would be to allow the player to swap "consciousness" with orcs under his control and play them as his own character while his actual character becomes an ally, but I guess that's crazy talk.

[Rast]

One of the dev arguments I saw a while back against orc micromanagement is that then the optimum play with orcs is to micromanage them like crazy, which becomes tedious and unfun, and is unfair the the people who choose not to micromanage them.

But, as you point out, people are micromanaging their orcs anyway, to the point of going on xp quests with individual orcs (how adorable).

So, if the god is going to stay in the game, how about improving the orc management interface to make it less of a hassle?

1. Remove god gifts to orc followers and improvements to orc follower gear. These effects will be too abuseable.
2. God can directly improve follower stats instead if we think this is needed, or give a passive boost based on player piety
3. Allow named orcs to pick up weapons, armor, and ammo from the floor. Maybe aux slots and jewelery too. Player can turn this behavior on and off, though there should almost never be a need to turn it off. Player can also inscribe individual items as not pickupable if desired.
4. Give the player a screen which shows him all his named orcs and the gear they have, in one big scrollable list. Possibly the list could be filtered, searched, and sorted, if it turns out that is something players want.
5. From that screen, allow the player to take any item from any of his named followers, give any orc-useable non-worn item from his floor or inventory to a named follower, or order two followers to swap particular items with each other. No limit on how much you can use this, but we want the orcs to be smart enough that most of the time you can trust them to be using the best gear they have found for themselves.
6. Ammo management. Player can tell followers to stop using particular ammo types, if he wants them for himself (does anyone do this?). Player can also order followers to share ammo equally (Orc Communism...)

EDIT: I thought of a few more things.

7. Followers would drop items when they find better ones, but any item that they try to drop this way first gets checked against the other followers in case one of them wants it instead. Only if nobody wants it does it go to the floor.
8. Items you give to followers they won't try to replace this way, but they will sometimes complain if they feel the quality of what they have is too low compared to what they see available on the floor.
9. When a follower picks up something awesome that you haven't seen before, you get a message, so you know to go to the inventory screen and yoink it for yourself.
10. If a follower stumbles into deep water, his items wash up adjacent. If he stumbles into lava, they still get destroyed, because that's hilarious.

All of my post applies to named followers only; before that level, they have to make do with whatever junk they were generated with.

[Lacuenta]

One of the dev arguments I saw a while back against orc micromanagement is that then the optimum play with orcs is to micromanage them like crazy, which becomes tedious and unfun, and is unfair the the people who choose not to micromanage them.

But, as you point out, people are micromanaging their orcs anyway, to the point of going on xp quests with individual orcs (how adorable).

Haha yup,
the reality of it is that currently they've just shifted the problem. Now you have to stand somewhere pressing "s" wait for the orc with the spear of freezing whom you want to gain xp and upgrades, to come into view from your pack -which you told to wait-, then press "follow me" and run for the stairs. In the past you were pressing "s" to wait for the right orc to stand on the pile of gear you made for him, before telling him to pick it up.

Really most of the micromanagement issues would be solved by just letting you gift your orcs any amount of items.

1. Remove god gifts to orc followers and improvements to orc follower gear. These effects will be too abuseable.

I dont really see a good way of abusing this tbh. The upgrading is quite random, one is far better of just choosing Trog, Oka or Gozag if you're in it for the gear.

3. Allow named orcs to pick up weapons, armor, and ammo from the floor. Maybe aux slots and jewelery too. Player can turn this behavior on and off, though there should almost never be a need to turn it off. Player can also inscribe individual items as not pickupable if desired.

This is almost exactly the way it used to work in the past (I remember fondly my warlord with +8GDA, the shield of resistance and autumn katana who was with me sinds d8 ), the current gifting system is fine, just remove the 1 gift limit and give it a large piety cost to avoid juggling too much. Jewellary would be cool tho.

4. Give the player a screen which shows him all his named orcs and the gear they have, in one big scrollable list. Possibly the list could be filtered, searched, and sorted, if it turns out that is something players want.

Already exists basically, press ctrl+x whith your orc gang in view.

5. From that screen, allow the player to take any item from any of his named followers, give any orc-useable non-worn item from his floor or inventory to a named follower, or order two followers to swap particular items with each other. No limit on how much you can use this, but we want the orcs to be smart enough that most of the time you can trust them to be using the best gear they have found for themselves.

This woulld be nice but would require a lot of coding i think. It would be awesome if orcish recall would let you select the orcs you want to summon from such a list.

I noticed different people have varying opinions on the direction Beogh should go. Personally i like the ally play Beogh offers, it offers a totally different experience compared to other gods and would like to see that part enhanced. I really get attached to my orcish friends during a run and often try to save them at the cost of my own life/consumables.

[Berder]

Beogh is extremely strong.

  Code:

<Sequell> 99/903 games for greatplayers (ho recent !experimental !zealot): 42/100x Beogh [42.00%], 12/31x Qazlal [38.71%], 11/30x Trog [36.67%], 1/3x Dithmenos [33.33%], 3/10x Vehumet [30.00%], 6/21x The Shining One [28.57%], 4/14x Zin [28.57%], 2/7x Gozag [28.57%], 2/8x Fedhas [25.00%], 3/17x Ashenzari [17.65%], 2/13x Kikubaaqudgha [15.38%], 3/23x Cheibriados [13.04%], 5/42x Okawaru [11.90%], 1/9x

Beogh has the highest winrate for hill orcs. Note also that you usually run into several orc priests before you find the temple, so Beogh is worshiped earlier than other gods, which makes that high winrate even more significant.

So that's a fact. Why is that a fact? I recently won Beogh twice and found it to be very strong. I'm a slow player, but my Beogh wins were among the fastest I've ever done, because they were so easy. Beogh gives you:
1. Boosts to SH and AC with no downside (unlike qaz which has a downside, namely noise). It's hard to overstate this; consider that 3 AC or 3 SH is roughly 10% greater defensive ability. This boost has the side effect of encouraging you to be a melee tank in heavy armor, which is an easier and simpler way to play.
2. Plenty of strong allies that have both melee and ranged attacks, and unlike with Yred you are encouraged to keep a few at your side at all times. The quality and number of these allies is also much higher than most Yred allies. e.g. in my experience you get many more Orc Warlords than you get Bone Dragons or Servitors.


I do think smiting could use a boost - not because Beogh isn't strong enough, but because it's currently pointless to invest the invocations to get smiting with Beogh, so it doesn't get used.

[Sar]

IMO the biggest benefit of Beogh is that you have to be a HO to play a Beogh char.

[kuniqs]

Make it so it's possible to join a Beoghite game as one of his allies.
I know it's impossible, but it would be so cool.

[Shard1697]

Beogh is definitely strong, but I absolutely hate managing my orcs and the changes a while ago did nothing to fix that. I still want a little pack of orc warriors to train into warlords, and because of how the XP system works for them you only wanna train up a small number at a time so they grow quickly. But you can't choose which orcs you recall, you can't choose when normal orcs become priests, and you can't tell specific orcs to fuck off.

So I end up dancing and waiting around staircases trying to get the few orcs I want to follow me, or finding a vault that makes steam and making priests and wizards stand in it until they die so I don't have to deal with how annoying they are. At least they don't muck everything up with animate dead, I guess.

[duvessa]

I don't agree that Beogh is strong. Allies are silly, but summoned ones are much more powerful than Beogh or Yred ones imo, and you get to worship a god that actually does something else that way. I'm pretty sure Yred-gifted allies are also better than Beogh ones, and you get animate skeleton (which is badly overpowered) really early so Yred seems clearly better to me.
Beogh is not at all consistently more available than other gods. All temple altars can appear on d:2, and d:1 orc priest is not something that you really want to try to get. Sure you might take him because you haven't found a better god but that's no different from taking okawaru over trog or fedhas because it was the first altar; it doesn't make okawaru not worse.

[njvack]

I'm agreed in the "Beogh is not particularly strong" camp. You mostly care about converting orcs early, but you don't have enough piety to do it reliably. And while yes, warlords are strong, you need to keep orcs around for a long time to get them to that level; probably you need to actually put yourself at some risk to level them up.

Ultimately, warlords with ranged weapons are probably better than servitors, but by that point you're strong enough that you can deal with whatever the game is throwing at you with careful play.

[Rast]

Beogh is not at all consistently more available than other gods. All temple altars can appear on d:2, and d:1 orc priest is not something that you really want to try to get.

He's about as available as all the other gods put together. I'd say its about 50/50 if you see an orc priest before you find your first altar.

[gammafunk]

50/50 chance that you see an orc priest before your first altar is way off. orc priests can't even place as natural level gen monsters until D:4, prior to this they place only in vaults or as OOD spawns, and there aren't any recent game orc priest kills in Sequell before D:3 at all. You're highly likely to find at least one altar before you see an orc priest, it just may not be an altar that you want.

[bcadren]

50/50 chance that you see an orc priest before your first altar is way off. orc priests can't even place as natural level gen monsters until D:4, prior to this they place only in vaults or as OOD spawns, and there aren't any recent game orc priest kills in Sequell before D:3 at all. You're highly likely to find at least one altar before you see an orc priest, it just may not be an altar that you want.

I feel like this earliness argument is kind of irrelevant. You have a good chance to get any god other than Jiyva early. [Lugonu via Start; rest guaranteed between D:2 and D:7]. You have a good chance of getting an Orc Priest between D:4 and D:7 [not guaranteed]. It's not a significant difference.

[nago]

Fedhas Trog and few other on d:2 instead d:4 is a pretty big difference. Probably it's the biggest difference for a char in early game barring some extra rare find like stick of haste or a +5 slay ring.
(and E.g. D:2 fedhas is definitely much stronger than even a stick of haste. But both are sweetly good...)

[mps]

It's certainly true that all other gods combined are more reliably available than Beogh, due to early altars, but no single god appears earlier on average without a zealot background. Honestly, I think it's time to just start writing posts in the language of probability theory ("the expectation value of X is greater than...") instead of trusting other posters make reasonable interpretations of statements about chance.

[Berder]

Among gods worshiped by non-zealot hill orcs played by greatplayers, Beogh has the highest winrate.

If you don't think he's strong you may not be playing him right. For example, XP is spread among all allies in LOS. That means that if you have fewer allies in LOS, they will level up faster. It's really quick to turn a plain orc into an orc warlord, if he's your only companion in lair. You can have an orc warlord by mid-lair. The last time I played, I had created 5 orc warlords by the end of my second lair branch, of which 2 had died. Plus orc knights with crossbows are plenty strong even if they aren't warlords.

[gammafunk]

The fact that beogh appears on-average relatively more often than any single god is irrelevant, what matters is does beogh occur more often than any other better god, and I'm afraid the latter is an embarrassingly large list of gods.

Also, and it probably goes without saying at this point, but just to be clear, the Sequell query given above isn't relevant since it doesn't control for when worship is occurring (beogh is far less likely to be found on D:1-2 and doesn't become the most common choice until D:3), and if you do there are way too few games among "greaterplayers", and even if there were more, you'd not be controlling for player intent, etc.

[Berder]

Also, and it probably goes without saying at this point, but just to be clear, the Sequell query given above isn't relevant since it doesn't control for when worship is occurring (beogh is far less likely to be found on D:1-2 and doesn't become the most common choice until D:3), and if you do there are way too few games among "greaterplayers", and even if there were more, you'd not be controlling for player intent, etc.

Well, why don't you control for those things and report your findings? I did privately control for a few of those factors and Beogh was still coming out on top. Note that controlling for when worship is occuring would tend to favor Beogh more, as Beogh is worshiped earlier than any other god. (edit: nevermind, no he's not)

[Berder]

The fact that beogh appears on-average relatively more often than any single god is irrelevant, what matters is does beogh occur more often than any other better god, and I'm afraid the latter is an embarrassingly large list of gods.

Hi gammafunk. Can you quantify this quote as a statement in probability theory? What does the proposition "beogh occurs more often than any other better god" mean in your understanding, again in the language of probability theory?

A reasonable interpretation is, Gammafunk has a list in mind of some gods he considers better than Beogh, Fedhas and Trog probably among them. What criterion does he have for making this list? That part is unclear, and may be just his personal opinion.

Anyway, by a reasonable interpretation, he thinks the average dungeon level on which the first altar to any god on that list appears, might be less than the average dungeon level on which the first orc priest appears.

[mps]

The fact that beogh appears on-average relatively more often than any single god is irrelevant, what matters is does beogh occur more often than any other better god, and I'm afraid the latter is an embarrassingly large list of gods.

Hi gammafunk. Can you quantify this quote as a statement in probability theory? What does the proposition "beogh occurs more often than any other better god" mean in your understanding, again in the language of probability theory?

A reasonable interpretation is, Gammafunk has a list in mind of some gods he considers better than Beogh, Fedhas and Trog probably among them. What criterion does he have for making this list? That part is unclear, and may be just his personal opinion.

Anyway, by a reasonable interpretation, he thinks the average dungeon level on which the first altar to any god on that list appears, might be less than the average dungeon level on which the first orc priest appears. I don't know what significance he ascribes to this.

I think there might be an interesting discussion there, but I'm not out to quibble with gammafunk about which gods are better than beogh (in the sense of which religion would be better to have on d:2 or at various other stages of the game, other things being equal). I'm willing to roll with a reasonable list or even just a number of gods that are better. I just want a quantitative statement of what he's talking about when he uses words like "often" and "occur."

[Berder]

This query looks at god worship milestones in the early dungeon among greatplayers playing hill orcs, and sorts them by god, ordered by the average dungeon level.

  Code:

<Sequell> 284 milestones for greatplayers (god.worship urune=0 place=d recent lvl<10 ho !experimental): 10x Cheibriados [4.7], 19x Qazlal [4.68], 8x Zin [4.5], 115x Beogh [4.3], 10x Ru [4.1], 7x Kikubaaqudgha [4], 4x Gozag [3.75], 13x Makhleb [3.38], 27x Okawaru [3.22], 9x Elyvilon [3.22], 12x The Shining One [3.17], 18x Trog [3.11], 11x Ashenzari [3.09], Sif Muna [3], 6x Fedhas [2.5], 3x Dithmenos [2.33],
<Sequell> 4x Nemelex Xobeh [2.25], 5x Vehumet [2.2], Xom [2], Jiyva [2]

Edit: this query doesn't tell you what you want it to tell you because it fails to account for the temple.

[njvack]

does beogh occur more often than any other better god, and I'm afraid the latter is an embarrassingly large list of gods.

...

you'd not be controlling for player intent, etc.

This. As I've kind of mentioned before, I think Beogh's power is actually kind of irrelevant (as long as it isn't insanely low). I don't take him because I want to have the winningest god, I take him because I feel like roleplaying as Orc Jesus.

That said, one way that Beogh might be made stronger while enhancing that theme would be if Smiting an orc gave an increased chance of converting it (especially if your smite did enough damage to kill the orc). The current conversion mechanics are a little unsatisfying; I don't really care about converting a hundred vanilla orcs who present no threat; I want to convert early orc priests/wizards and later, high-tier orcs. If there were a way to effectively spend piety to convert threatening (or desirable) orcs, that would be interesting to me.

[Rast]

50/50 chance that you see an orc priest before your first altar is way off. orc priests can't even place as natural level gen monsters until D:4, prior to this they place only in vaults or as OOD spawns, and there aren't any recent game orc priest kills in Sequell before D:3 at all. You're highly likely to find at least one altar before you see an orc priest, it just may not be an altar that you want.

Are you sure? 925 so far this tourney, out of 62448 games total. That's a big chunk, considering it doesn't include those orc priests who failed to kill the player.

!lg * t killer~~orc_priest place=d:3
Sequell 925. ew the Firebug (L3 TrFE), slain by an orc priest (a +1 short sword of electrocution) on D:3 on 2015-03-23 16:38:27, with 32 points after 1361 turns and 0:00:08.

[n1000]

50/50 chance that you see an orc priest before your first altar is way off. orc priests can't even place as natural level gen monsters until D:4, prior to this they place only in vaults or as OOD spawns, and there aren't any recent game orc priest kills in Sequell before D:3 at all. You're highly likely to find at least one altar before you see an orc priest, it just may not be an altar that you want.

Are you sure? 925 so far this tourney, out of 62448 games total. That's a big chunk, considering it doesn't include those orc priests who failed to kill the player.

!lg * t killer~~orc_priest place=d:3
Sequell 925. ew the Firebug (L3 TrFE), slain by an orc priest (a +1 short sword of electrocution) on D:3 on 2015-03-23 16:38:27, with 32 points after 1361 turns and 0:00:08.

before D:3

In response to Berder: what do you think about trying a query where games where a god was worshiped on D:3 (EDIT: not necessarily D:3, but a specific floor) are compared? How early a god shows up is one of the most crucial factors in estimating its power level, but I'd also be interested in seeing how powerful they are, controlling for that.

[Berder]

Here's a better query that looks at number of turns rather than dungeon/temple level.

  Code:

<halberd> !lm greatplayers god.worship urune=0 s=god x=avg(turns) recent xl<12 ho !experimental o=avg(turns)
<Sequell> 397 milestones for greatplayers (god.worship urune=0 recent xl<12 ho !experimental): 14x Kikubaaqudgha [5222.71], 2x Sif Muna [5183.5], 17x Ashenzari [5067.71], 32x Qazlal [4850.25], 11x Zin [4835], 13x Ru [4698.54], 49x Okawaru [4593.33], 6x Gozag [4496.67], 10x Vehumet [4421.7], 25x Cheibriados [4416.8], 2x Yredelemnul [4147], 18x The Shining One [4138.61], 22x Makhleb [4039.23], 115x Beogh
<Sequell> [4030.21], Jiyva [3674], 30x Trog [3673.87], 12x Elyvilon [3528.08], 8x Fedhas [2744.75], 4x Nemelex Xobeh [1920.25], Lugonu [1841], 3x Dithmenos [1701.33], 2x Xom [1471.5]

so it appears Beogh is worshiped earlier than average, but not super early.

[mps]

I don't think you have to go to game data to determine this issue. It's a question of probability that can presumably be resolved based on a computation of the average depth at which a hill orc first appears and a computation of the average number of altars that appear per floor in the first few levels. That plus a list of gods better than beogh should decide things.

[johlstei]

Here's a better query that looks at number of turns rather than dungeon/temple level.

  Code:

<halberd> !lm greatplayers god.worship urune=0 s=god x=avg(turns) recent xl<12 ho !experimental o=avg(turns)
<Sequell> 397 milestones for greatplayers (god.worship urune=0 recent xl<12 ho !experimental): 14x Kikubaaqudgha [5222.71], 2x Sif Muna [5183.5], 17x Ashenzari [5067.71], 32x Qazlal [4850.25], 11x Zin [4835], 13x Ru [4698.54], 49x Okawaru [4593.33], 6x Gozag [4496.67], 10x Vehumet [4421.7], 25x Cheibriados [4416.8], 2x Yredelemnul [4147], 18x The Shining One [4138.61], 22x Makhleb [4039.23], 115x Beogh
<Sequell> [4030.21], Jiyva [3674], 30x Trog [3673.87], 12x Elyvilon [3528.08], 8x Fedhas [2744.75], 4x Nemelex Xobeh [1920.25], Lugonu [1841], 3x Dithmenos [1701.33], 2x Xom [1471.5]

so it appears Beogh is worshiped earlier than average, but not super early.

You didn't control for just hill orcs though - I bet they worship a god in fewer turns than average in general.

[Berder]

Here's a better query that looks at number of turns rather than dungeon/temple level.

  Code:

<halberd> !lm greatplayers god.worship urune=0 s=god x=avg(turns) recent xl<12 ho !experimental o=avg(turns)
<Sequell> 397 milestones for greatplayers (god.worship urune=0 recent xl<12 ho !experimental): 14x Kikubaaqudgha [5222.71], 2x Sif Muna [5183.5], 17x Ashenzari [5067.71], 32x Qazlal [4850.25], 11x Zin [4835], 13x Ru [4698.54], 49x Okawaru [4593.33], 6x Gozag [4496.67], 10x Vehumet [4421.7], 25x Cheibriados [4416.8], 2x Yredelemnul [4147], 18x The Shining One [4138.61], 22x Makhleb [4039.23], 115x Beogh
<Sequell> [4030.21], Jiyva [3674], 30x Trog [3673.87], 12x Elyvilon [3528.08], 8x Fedhas [2744.75], 4x Nemelex Xobeh [1920.25], Lugonu [1841], 3x Dithmenos [1701.33], 2x Xom [1471.5]

so it appears Beogh is worshiped earlier than average, but not super early.

You didn't control for just hill orcs though - I bet they worship a god in fewer turns than average in general.

yes, I did, that's the "ho" keyword

[bcadren]

Here's a better query that looks at number of turns rather than dungeon/temple level.

  Code:

<halberd> !lm greatplayers god.worship urune=0 s=god x=avg(turns) recent xl<12 ho !experimental o=avg(turns)
<Sequell> 397 milestones for greatplayers (god.worship urune=0 recent xl<12 ho !experimental): 14x Kikubaaqudgha [5222.71], 2x Sif Muna [5183.5], 17x Ashenzari [5067.71], 32x Qazlal [4850.25], 11x Zin [4835], 13x Ru [4698.54], 49x Okawaru [4593.33], 6x Gozag [4496.67], 10x Vehumet [4421.7], 25x Cheibriados [4416.8], 2x Yredelemnul [4147], 18x The Shining One [4138.61], 22x Makhleb [4039.23], 115x Beogh
<Sequell> [4030.21], Jiyva [3674], 30x Trog [3673.87], 12x Elyvilon [3528.08], 8x Fedhas [2744.75], 4x Nemelex Xobeh [1920.25], Lugonu [1841], 3x Dithmenos [1701.33], 2x Xom [1471.5]

so it appears Beogh is worshiped earlier than average, but not super early.

You didn't control for just hill orcs though - I bet they worship a god in fewer turns than average in general.

yes, I did, that's the "ho" keyword

Why control for only 'greatplayers' you'd get far more data if you went for everyone. Here's that:

  Code:

[05:25.10] <Bcadren> !lm * god.worship urune=0 s=god x=avg(turns) recent xl<12 ho !experimental o=avg(turns)
[05:25.13] <Sequell> 10618 milestones for * (god.worship urune=0 recent xl<12 ho !experimental): 16x Lugonu [5472.06], 2x Igni Ipthes [4726], 123x Vehumet [4429.03], 296x Zin [4373.12], 174x
Kikubaaqudgha [4273.95], 43x Sif Muna [4192.19], 256x Cheibriados [4035.09], 15x Jiyva [3868.6], 813x Qazlal [3856.59], 1838x Okawaru [3799.44], 91x Gozag [3749.3], 178x Ru [3714.3], 410x The
Shining One [3599.52], 111x Elyvilon
[05:25.14] <Sequell> [3558.07], 611x Makhleb [3485.59], 380x Trog [3338.09], 219x Ashenzari [3278.42], 4587x Beogh [3071.12], 112x Yredelemnul [2769.16], 90x Fedhas [2495.29], 125x Nemelex Xobeh
[2487.34], 69x Dithmenos [2307.49], 59x Xom [2024.46]

You'd also have to exclude CK, DK, etc. starts to get that normalized... Can we please stop this tangent about god earliness though? O_O;

[twelwe]

you can create a thread but you cannot shape a thread`s destiny

[Berder]

Why control for only 'greatplayers' you'd get far more data if you went for everyone.

Because greatplayers at least somewhat know how to play, meaning the ranking of gods more reflects how strong they are when used right, rather than how n00b-friendly they are.

[Kate]

http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commit;h=2d413e0a87bfb5e079ffb8e4b6bdb194c402545c

close thread

Good idea.