Singularity in current trunk is way OP.

[XuaXua]

mps, you have a habit of being intellectually dishonest even by Tavern standards. Very clear arguments were given for all the things you listed.

C'mon minmay; do one of your famous lists pointing out each previously-stated counter-argument on a 1:1 so he "gets it".

[Berder]

I agree that it doesn't make sense for Tloc to have a level 9 damage spell when the rest of its spells are about positioning, not damage. Even with Gell's and force lance you can't use Tloc as a main way to deal damage until you get singularity... then suddenly tloc does great damage.

Suggestion: give Tloc a level 9 spell that is more in line with the rest of what tloc does.

One option already mentioned is to remove the damage from singularity and make it an enemy repositioning spell. The problem I see with this is, is it really worth the XP investment for a level 9 spell if all it does is keep enemies away from you? Cblink, dispersal, disjunction are already very good at maintaining distance from enemies, and usually just cblink is more than good enough. The idea that you could use a damage-less singularity to clump enemies together and then hurt them more efficiently with other level 9s has the problem that it requires a second level 9 to make it work.

Another option is to make singularity a small but very deadly hole that you have to use the other translocations spells to kick enemies into. That way, it still can do damage, but at least there's synergy with the other translocations spells.

Finally, what's more powerful than pulling enemies back a bit - teleporting them away of course, or teleporting yourself! What if the level 9 tloc spell was instant self-teleport? Or creating a teleport trap on an adjacent square, like the warpwright card?

[Tamiore]

There are basically two good points in the thread: The spell easily blocks monsters into corridors/rooms with doors with an essentially indestructible obstacle and that it deals damage to monsters that are out of line of sight, contrary to changes to prevent other spells and effects from doing the same. These two points interact in that singularity allows the player to block or pin a monster out of LOS and run away.

It is far from clear that there is any issue with the spell outside of these points. Much of the rest of the talk has been of a thematic/"flavor" nature. It certainly makes sense to compare singularity to other level 9 spells, but it's much less clear what the point of talking about its interactions with those spells is. At this point you're talking about a large investment in multiple spell schools, making for a late extended endgame character, which one expects will overpower almost all enemies. What can the actual complaint here be? That having 3 maxed spell schools makes megazigs too easy?

Well, kind of.
My "complaint" is that singularity + firestorm will make all PAN/Hell overlords much-much easier (even if singlarity dealt no damage) as long as it roots/blocks out of LOS. And I think that PAN/Hell overlords are already easy enough in extended for competent caster.

The OP seems to be arguing that singularity has problems with pathing and LOS issues AND it's too compatible with summons (why?) AND (later in the thread) it has all kinds of "flavor" problems AND it shouldn't deal damage (???) AND it should be multiple school (without any argument as to why it's a stronger spell, justifying a larger XP investment, than tornado or any argument as to why it's comparable to fire storm and/or glaciate in power either now or after resolution of the pathing and LOS issue).

I listed things in OP from MOST important to those less so for a reason.
Now you are mixing everything that was said in this thread (both by me and by others) like all those things are of equal importance. That's not the case and was never implied to be the case.
And, yes, I still stand that gravitational collapse should not have friendly fire block for flavor reasons and that flavor reasons alone are enough in this case.

[mps]

mps, you have a habit of being intellectually dishonest even by Tavern standards. Very clear arguments were given for all the things you listed.

You have a habit of being glib and obnoxious, loading short, zero-effort posts with whiny, overly general assertions that are, frankly, a waste of time to argue with.

[XuaXua]

mps, you have a habit of being intellectually dishonest even by Tavern standards. Very clear arguments were given for all the things you listed.

You have a habit of being glib and obnoxious, loading short, zero-effort posts with whiny, overly general assertions that are, frankly, a waste of time to argue with.

This would be the second post where you summarize things in a thread, yet reveal nothing new that hasn't been addressed elsewhere. Please stay on topic.

[and into]

Seeing as how the OP got thanks from two devs and people who actually do stuff with the game might actually be paying attention for once, let's not turn this thread into a shit-show, ok?


On a more positive note, it would be both on topic and also useful, I imagine, if people shared their experiences with actually using Singularity in a game. How was its power-level, in practice? Was it prone to abuse and/or tedious but strong uses? Did it seem to fill an interesting niche for tloc, or did it feel redundant or out of joint? Other general impressions?

[Sar]

This game was back when you could have multiple singularities, but I only needed one in this situation:

Spoiler: show

Edit: also, I don't know if it was fixed but I noticed monsters would actually stop and attack Singularity instead of going around it sometimes. Do they not know it's indestructible?! Maybe it shouldn't be indestructible?

[tasonir]

I already posted my thoughts on the game I played with it - and I love it, and I think the damage is fine. But I wasn't looking to abuse it and I didn't wedge it in choke points like sar's picture demonstrates; this is clearly a problem. I know there isn't code to support two monsters on the same tile right now, but is there some way that this could be accomplished? Turn the singularity into a trap, aka, dungeon feature? May cause problems with not being able to place it over water or other traps, etc, but seems like letting monsters walk over it would be a big improvement.

This combined with 0 damage to monsters out of LOS would prevent most (maybe all?) the abuses I can see.

[kuniqs]

if people shared their experiences with actually using Singularity in a game.

Compared to firestorm, which is most similar:
- 1 school vs 2 schools
- many other non-damaging, but very useful spells (phase shift! disjunction!) vs many spells which do the same, but worse
- stays for few turns, so it's a kind of an insurance against mana drainers
- deals irresistible damage vs partially resistible
- larger area of effect

IMO singularyty is ridiculous right now. Unless you're counting on Makhleb/Vehumet's hp/mp regaining, or don't have space to place singularity, firestorm loses against singularity on almost every field

[Sar]

I didn't really "look to abuse it", it was just the placement that made the most sense!

[Siegurt]

How I would design singularity if it were me doing it:

The singularity is cast must be cast on an open square, on turn 0 it has a 0 radius, it is fast (acts at double normal speed)
On each of it's turns it attempts to suck all monsters within it's radius towards itself. Monsters resist it's pull proportional to their HD, and the "sucking power" of the singularity is proportional to the spellpower of the spell.
All monsters in it's radius act as if it's a source of fear. (i.e. they attempt to move away from it, and never attempt to attack it)
Any creature which fails it's roll when it's adjacent to the singularity is sucked in, and thereby banished to the abyss (50% XP gain for banishing things to the abyss)
Creatures outside it's radius act normally, can attack the player, or treat the singularity as if it was a summoned creature (i.e. they might attack it with a ranged attack)
At the end of each of it's turns, the radius expands, if the radius would encompass the player on that turn it does not expand (Or if it does expand it's radius should be visible, so the player can get the heck out of the way)
The singularity is somewhat resistant to all forms of elemental damage, has good AC, but has a finite number of hps and can be destroyed (It might take a couple firestorms to do so, but you can't pin things down outside LOS and firestorm them indefinitely without destroying your own singularity)
Once it's reached it's maximum radius, it'd reverse course and start shrinking

I'd try to fine tune it so that on average a pan/hell boss will have a pretty good chance of walking out of it's radius even against the spell cast at max spellpower, and that'd be unlikely to actually suck them in (Although i'd still want it to have a decent chance of slowing them down or forcing them to use some of their turns moving instead of attacking even at "normal" spellpower for a level 9 spell (i.e. around 80-100)

I'm not sure if that would suit both the design goals of the spell and be balanced, but that's what I'd want out of a level 9 translocation spell, personally

[Tamiore]

I already posted my thoughts on the game I played with it - and I love it, and I think the damage is fine. But I wasn't looking to abuse it and I didn't wedge it in choke points like sar's picture demonstrates; this is clearly a problem. I know there isn't code to support two monsters on the same tile right now, but is there some way that this could be accomplished? Turn the singularity into a trap, aka, dungeon feature? May cause problems with not being able to place it over water or other traps, etc, but seems like letting monsters walk over it would be a big improvement.

This combined with 0 damage to monsters out of LOS would prevent most (maybe all?) the abuses I can see.

Blink monsters to the other side when they try to move throw the singularity? I mean, really, I suggested it exactly because it seems the easier way to implement it.

And, yes, besides damage to monsters out of LOS I still insist that singularity itself should expire in one turn if it gets out of LOS to prevent rooting mobs just out of the edge of LOS.

[Tamiore]

How I would design singularity if it were me doing it:

The singularity is cast must be cast on an open square, on turn 0 it has a 0 radius, it is fast (acts at double normal speed)
On each of it's turns it attempts to suck all monsters within it's radius towards itself. Monsters resist it's pull proportional to their HD, and the "sucking power" of the singularity is proportional to the spellpower of the spell.
All monsters in it's radius act as if it's a source of fear. (i.e. they attempt to move away from it, and never attempt to attack it)
Any creature which fails it's roll when it's adjacent to the singularity is sucked in, and thereby banished to the abyss (50% XP gain for banishing things to the abyss)
Creatures outside it's radius act normally, can attack the player, or treat the singularity as if it was a summoned creature (i.e. they might attack it with a ranged attack)
At the end of each of it's turns, the radius expands, if the radius would encompass the player on that turn it does not expand (Or if it does expand it's radius should be visible, so the player can get the heck out of the way)
The singularity is somewhat resistant to all forms of elemental damage, has good AC, but has a finite number of hps and can be destroyed (It might take a couple firestorms to do so, but you can't pin things down outside LOS and firestorm them indefinitely without destroying your own singularity)
Once it's reached it's maximum radius, it'd reverse course and start shrinking

I'd try to fine tune it so that on average a pan/hell boss will have a pretty good chance of walking out of it's radius even against the spell cast at max spellpower, and that'd be unlikely to actually suck them in (Although i'd still want it to have a decent chance of slowing them down or forcing them to use some of their turns moving instead of attacking even at "normal" spellpower for a level 9 spell (i.e. around 80-100)

I'm not sure if that would suit both the design goals of the spell and be balanced, but that's what I'd want out of a level 9 translocation spell, personally

So why would I, as a player, want a lvl 9 spell that has hard time rooting (much less banishing) the monsters I actually CARE about rooting (PAN lords, tier 1 demons, etc), ends up giving me 50% EXP for all the trash ones and sends all the good loot to abyss, all that with a serious "warm up" delay?

[Sar]

I imagine the fear-like effect being useful. Scare away Cerebov and take his rune!

[Siegurt]

How I would design singularity if it were me doing it:

The singularity is cast must be cast on an open square, on turn 0 it has a 0 radius, it is fast (acts at double normal speed)
On each of it's turns it attempts to suck all monsters within it's radius towards itself. Monsters resist it's pull proportional to their HD, and the "sucking power" of the singularity is proportional to the spellpower of the spell.
All monsters in it's radius act as if it's a source of fear. (i.e. they attempt to move away from it, and never attempt to attack it)
Any creature which fails it's roll when it's adjacent to the singularity is sucked in, and thereby banished to the abyss (50% XP gain for banishing things to the abyss)
Creatures outside it's radius act normally, can attack the player, or treat the singularity as if it was a summoned creature (i.e. they might attack it with a ranged attack)
At the end of each of it's turns, the radius expands, if the radius would encompass the player on that turn it does not expand (Or if it does expand it's radius should be visible, so the player can get the heck out of the way)
The singularity is somewhat resistant to all forms of elemental damage, has good AC, but has a finite number of hps and can be destroyed (It might take a couple firestorms to do so, but you can't pin things down outside LOS and firestorm them indefinitely without destroying your own singularity)
Once it's reached it's maximum radius, it'd reverse course and start shrinking

I'd try to fine tune it so that on average a pan/hell boss will have a pretty good chance of walking out of it's radius even against the spell cast at max spellpower, and that'd be unlikely to actually suck them in (Although i'd still want it to have a decent chance of slowing them down or forcing them to use some of their turns moving instead of attacking even at "normal" spellpower for a level 9 spell (i.e. around 80-100)

I'm not sure if that would suit both the design goals of the spell and be balanced, but that's what I'd want out of a level 9 translocation spell, personally

So why would I, as a player, want a lvl 9 spell that has hard time rooting (much less banishing) the monsters I actually CARE about rooting (PAN lords, tier 1 demons, etc), ends up giving me 50% EXP for all the trash ones and sends all the good loot to abyss, all that with a serious "warm up" delay?

Effectively for pan lords this functions as a semi-slow (with a spellpower dependant chance of banishment) that also can shove them out of the way and (with some risk) get their rune out from under one. Unless you've never fought one, you know how much of a big deal this is, 50% XP on critters you banish, is phenomenally not a big deal, particularly once you get to the stage of you-can-cast-level-9-spells-and-are-in-pan. Translocations as a school is generally for "out of box" solutions to problems, i.e. you typically are using translocations as a way to get *around* your problems, instead of killing them. Anything which prevents a Pan lord from killing you *right now* is a big deal.

The point of pan lords is that they're supposed to be hard, they're hard to kill, they should be equally hard to root, slow, banish, trick, finagle, or confuse. It's not like they're immune to the spell, they're just big nasty monsters, and you need to bring some serious firepower to the table (even if it's not literal "fire" power) to tangle with them.

The warmup/cooldown thing is really intended to make it so that just sticking a singularity adjacent to a hard critter isn't just an automatic chance of banishment from the get-go, making positioning of the singularty and yourself something to consider and think about, if it was just a simple "banish this thing" it would be less interesting IMHO.

You did notice the "singularity is fast and expands it's radius after every turn" part right? that means on average most things aren't going to get out of the way or have an action, you're usually going to see a possibilty of something happening right away (presuming you stick the singularity right next to your target)

[bcadren]

I've read thought this and think I may have a solution to the problems mentioned. I propose the following changes:

• Change "Singularity" title to "Gravitational Vortex" [Flavour only]
• The core of the singularity is a vortex (v) and as such can be directly destroyed by melee damage and moves randomly, like a confused creature.
• HD of the core creature depends on spellpower. At max power, it would have roughly enough HP to survive 2-3 turns in direct combat with a Hell Lord.
• The AoE around the vortex deals no direct damage (but when cast on large groups the knocking into each other causes damage).
• The singularity itself has a pure distortion melee. [Added effect only; no physical damage]
• It's treated as friendly so it won't melee with you or allies, but its passive pulling effect will influence allies and the caster.

With those changes it would be a powerful distraction, but not deadly to the worst threats. Giving a Warper time to cBlink around the threat; grab the rune and go. I'd still ask at this point...do we really need it? I mean cBlink by itself is hugely powerful. Disjunction even more so. I mean 'grouping enemies together' with a spell instead of keeping them away is unique; but gravitas is probably enough to do that and comboing gravitas with FBall or FStorm is a reasonable choice; where getting this level 9 monstrosity isn't something a lot of players would choose regardless.

[kuniqs]

Who though translocations needed 9 level spells?

[Arrhythmia]

Who though translocations needed 9 level spells?

sage did. don't be ridiculous.