Merge Assassin into Hunter

[and into]

All credit to Cragspyder for this idea, or at least the first time I've seen the idea [EDIT: Note duvessa's history lesson, below; KoboldLord suggested this a long time ago]. Unfortunately the thread in which it was brought up got pretty badly off-track, into abstract discussion that was more about different metaphors for game design, than actual changes in the game (it happens sometimes).

Anyway, I think this is a good idea for a few reasons. First, let's compare how similar these backgrounds already are:

Human Hunter:
Fighting 1.0
[Chosen ranged weapon] 4.0
Dodging 2.0
Stealth 1.0
short sword, +1 [basic type of chosen ranged weapon], ammo, leather armor, ration

Human Assassin:
Fighting 2.0
Short blades 2.0
Throwing 2.0
Dodging 1.0
Stealth 4.0
+2 dagger, +0 blowgun, 8 poison needles, 2 curare needles, robe, cloak, ration

Why not just allow the blowgun as a choice under Hunter?

Starting with leather is worse than cloak + robe for most species, but only a little bit, whereas short sword and +1 blowgun is basically equal with, but probably better than, +2 dagger and +0 blowgun. There would be the loss of stealth, but higher throwing gives much better odds that those needles will hit anything on floor 1—if anything, this is actually a buff.

If desired, part of this merge could involve increasing the Hunter's starting stealth slightly, which fits the theme of "Hunter" very nicely, anyway. (Hunter doesn't need a buff, of course, but its starting skills are a bit low overall, it would only be a slight buff, and a little more starting stealth does help increase, slightly, the difference between hunter and arcane marksman.) — I am agnostic about this, but I mention it as a possibility.

But all those are, I would say, small matters subject to whatever minor tweaking the devs want. Merging assassin and offering a blowgun choice under Hunter eliminates two backgrounds that are even more overlapping than Fi/Gl now are. I would also offer the following support:

1.) choosing blowgun would start you off with conspicuous throwing skill, which helps key new players in to the fact that throwing skill helps blowguns, which isn't a very intuitive feature (arguably that itself should change, somehow, but in the meantime this helps reduce confusion)

2.) while "assassin" is arguably a cool name, or w/e (to me it is like "ninja," it falls on the wrong side of the convention-cliche line, but please let's not turn this into a bike-shedding clusterfuck), it is actually one of the background names that tends to be misleading, as the closest thing to "assassinate"-style kills in Crawl is supplied by a different background named "Enchanter."

[duvessa]

https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1035&p=11606#p11606

stealth is def. more useful for ranged combat than for, say, monk

[and into]

I agree with the point about stealth.

I'm not entirely sure what you intended to convey by linking that thread, duvessa. (I checked out the links Curio supplied also? Maybe my page isn't loading on the correct post?)

Yes, hunters now have a weapon choice. It seems like a good idea to expand that weapon choice to blowgun, which then can cover the niche for assassin entirely. As I pointed out, this can be combined with giving (all) hunters better stealth—which does increase contrast with AM, which start with 0 stealth.

[duvessa]

I agree with the point about stealth.

I'm not entirely sure what you intended to convey by linking that thread, duvessa. (I checked out the links Curio supplied also? Maybe my page isn't loading on the correct post?)

The post I linked to is KoboldLord stating assassin should be merged with hunter, nearly 4 years ago.

[and into]

Gotcha. I guess danr was right about the "low priority" then, perhaps. But still it may be worth bringing up again. In the other thread, at least one dev (PleasingFungus if I recall correctly) seemed amenable to the idea.

[PleasingFungus]

Yes, primarily because of your reason 2 (which has been a pet peeve of mine for a while), secondarily because of 1. I don't really feel there's any pressing need to consolidate backgrounds in general, but I'd like to mislead new players a little less.

[Siegurt]

I dunno, I play assassins using stealth and dagger primarily for at least the first 3-4 levels, I only break out the blowgun for an early awake ogre or orc warrior.

Imho that isnt misleading at all. Admittedly there are some people who play assassins like blowgun hunters.

It doesn't seem misleading to me if you interpret 'assassin' through the more traditional 'guy who kills people for money, often with poison or from afar, ideally without anyone knowing'

The whole 'surprise stabbing' thing is hardly the entire gambit of an assassin

[and into]

I dunno, I play assassins using stealth and dagger primarily for at least the first 3-4 levels, I only break out the blowgun for an early awake ogre or orc warrior.

Imho that isnt misleading at all. Admittedly there are some people who play assassins like blowgun hunters.

It doesn't seem misleading to me if you interpret 'assassin' through the more traditional 'guy who kills people for money, often with poison or from afar, ideally without anyone knowing'

The whole 'surprise stabbing' thing is hardly the entire gambit of an assassin

Let's assume hunter starts the game with more stealth, after the merger. How would what you describe be different if you chose "blowgun" as an option under Hunter, had a slightly better blowgun, and a very slightly worse short blade?

[Sprucery]

But the cloak gives a much better start, since you will probably find a leather quite early anyway.

[KoboldLord]

For the record, I still think that the assassin playing style isn't sufficiently different enough from the hunter playing style that they're both worth including as distinct backgrounds. This proposal really should be completely non-controversial.

[and into]

Oh yeah, also:

HuHu:
3 AC, 11 EV; 12/11/13

HuAs:
3 AC, 12 EV; 11/11/14

As for the cloak + robe: It is better than a leather and no cloak, but calling it *much* better stretches one's credibility.

At least some developers considered Fi/Gl too close and not differentiated enough back when 1.) Gl could not start with quarterstaff, and 2.) the difference was leather + helmet + throwing nets (and a bit of throwing skill) vs. scale + shield.

[duvessa]

quarterstaff Gl wasn't added for that reason I'm pretty sure
the real "differentiate Gl" change was taking away its buckler

[PleasingFungus]

I dunno, I play assassins using stealth and dagger primarily for at least the first 3-4 levels, I only break out the blowgun for an early awake ogre or orc warrior.

how much xp do you put into stealth or throwing, early on?

It doesn't seem misleading to me if you interpret 'assassin' through the more traditional 'guy who kills people for money, often with poison or from afar, ideally without anyone knowing'

The whole 'surprise stabbing' thing is hardly the entire gambit of an assassin

I sincerely do not understand the distinction you're trying to make here.

[Siegurt]

I dunno, I play assassins using stealth and dagger primarily for at least the first 3-4 levels, I only break out the blowgun for an early awake ogre or orc warrior.

how much xp do you put into stealth or throwing, early on?

Well, it depends. There's about a dozen ways to start an assassin effectively, if I plan on sticking with the short blades+stabbing shtick, I typically will start by putting 100% XP into stealth until it's about 6-8 (depending on aptitudes), then split evenly between dodging/stealth/short blades (Which I can afford to do because of the starting points already put into short blades and stealth, and because daggers are so much better for stabbing than short blades are)

It doesn't seem misleading to me if you interpret 'assassin' through the more traditional 'guy who kills people for money, often with poison or from afar, ideally without anyone knowing'

The whole 'surprise stabbing' thing is hardly the entire gambit of an assassin

I sincerely do not understand the distinction you're trying to make here.

Well, I was under the impression (perhaps mistakenly) from what someone else said that one of the objections to the "assassin" moniker was the fact that it lead new players down the road of assuming that stealth+short blades was the *only* way to play one, I was trying to make the point that in a traditional view of the word 'assassin' one would be more prone to assume "poisoner" or "Long range rifle user" (obviously not appropriate to a fantasy setting, but I think blowguns are the closest thing DCSS has to a long range precision weapon)

Perhaps that's not at issue at all, if the naming, or theme, or "misleading new players because of the name" isn't relevant to the point, then feel free to ignore this whole paragraph

~~

I would assume that an increase in stealth for hunters would correspond with a decrease in one or more of their existing starting skills, however I feel like more stealth isn't as helpful for a hunter choosing anything other than blowguns. (Or really, for a background that doesn't start with a +2 dagger instead of a +0 short sword, daggers being *much* better for stabbing as opposed to normal melee, for which the two are very comparable) in particular you want more weapon skill for bows and crossbows and slings than you do for blowguns at the start (Blowguns being decently effective against low level creatures even with pretty poor throwing skill)

I don't think it'd be the end of the world to merge the two backgrounds, but I think the result wouldn't be as good of a start as either of the two existing backgrounds are presently. In and of itself that doesn't mean it's a bad idea, if both backgrounds were too good, merging them into a single slightly-less-good background would be a positive change overall, but I haven't heard any arguments along those lines.

Also the starting curare is *really really* good, it makes a top-notch panic button, I'm not sure if that's a factor one way or the other, but having two curare needles would be like starting a bow hunter with like an extra 5 poison arrows or something, it'd be hard to start a hunter and want to select anything else over blowguns.

[Wahaha]

Assassin is one of my top favorite classes and hunter is tied with another class as least favorite. There's a big difference in how they're played.

Agree that the name Assassin is misleading.

[Siegurt]

Assassin is one of my top favorite classes and hunter is tied with another class as least favorite. There's a big difference in how they're played.

Agree that the name Assassin is misleading.

Not to try to derail us terribly with bikeshedding, but why do you find the name misleading? (I find that I often play an assassin background exactly how I would think an "assassin" would play, given the limits of the game system.)

[KoboldLord]

The assassin background doesn't actually particularly support a stabbing playing style any better than any background chosen at random. None of their starting equipment helps at all to enable stabbing, and any starting character can pick up one of the two or three daggers that spawn on D1 and catch up almost immediately on stealth and short blades. Gladiators are actually comparatively much more stabby than assassins because they actually start with an item that helps with stabbing, and they don't have any particular disadvantage at stealth or short blades once their starting nets get used up.

What assassins do start with is a launcher and a supply of murder projectiles that will easily kill almost every threatening monster in the early game, whether the monster is aware of them or not.

[nago]

What if while discussing for another 4 year about merging the two background, the murder needles are replaced by like 8ish of confusion and 4ish of paralysis? In that way the assassin would have something good to stab enemies with.

(I'd add also a pot on invis in the mix, because that would be very in line of the name)

[Siegurt]

The assassin background doesn't actually particularly support a stabbing playing style any better than any background chosen at random. None of their starting equipment helps at all to enable stabbing, and any starting character can pick up one of the two or three daggers that spawn on D1 and catch up almost immediately on stealth and short blades. Gladiators are actually comparatively much more stabby than assassins because they actually start with an item that helps with stabbing, and they don't have any particular disadvantage at stealth or short blades once their starting nets get used up.

What assassins do start with is a launcher and a supply of murder projectiles that will easily kill almost every threatening monster in the early game, whether the monster is aware of them or not.

Well, I've gone through the first two levels of the game without finding a dagger, so starting with a +2 dagger and some stealth does help to some degree with stabbing, although admittedly not as much as nets do (What if assassins just started with some sleep needles instead of poison ones?)

Edit: Or what Nago said just there

Assassins also get slightly more dex than gladiators (or hunters) do (A very very minor advantage to be sure) but certainly assassin supports stabbing better than say, transmuter or artificer, it perhaps doesn't support stabbing any *more* than gladiators (and almost certianly not as much as enchanters), but it's certainly not the weakest in this regard.

However my point wasn't that "assassins are better at stabbing people than other backgrounds" it was more "poisoning someone from afar with a blowgun and needles" is *very very* assassin-like, there's nothing about "you can poison critters from afar, and do so very quietly and without magic" that doesn't say "assassin" to me.

[duvessa]

Needles other than poison and curare theoretically encourage training throwing skill so you might actually be making it closer to Hu

[Sprucery]

That's a great idea: give As a selection of sleep, confusion and para needles.

Sure that makes throwing more valuable but stealth for stabbing would still be good. The gameplay would be different from hunters.

[Wahaha]

Not to try to derail us terribly with bikeshedding, but why do you find the name misleading? (I find that I often play an assassin background exactly how I would think an "assassin" would play, given the limits of the game system.)

In games that have stabbing and stealth, there is usually a class that can stab stealthily. It is likely that new players expect this game to have such a class. The assassin is the class that sounds the most like a stealthy stabber. I see new players being confused about this, so I'm not saying the name is confusing just because.

[PleasingFungus]

An assassin that had confuse/sleep needles would probably be less misleading than the current one, but only to a certain extent - it would basically be in the same position as the artificer.

The artificer is a gladiator with a worse starting weapon & a stack of early-game "get-out-of-jail-free" wands. But what it looks like is the "evocations specialist", a class that you can focus on evocations to serve as a primary offense. It's not, of course, because crawl doesn't generate nearly that many evocables, and wands don't scale that well with evocations - but that's not something that a new player will see.

Sleep/para needle assassin would be the same thing - those needles are extremely rare, at present, and unless that was changed, focusing on stealth/throwing to be a needle-based stabbing character would be a very bad idea. (But, again, one that's implied to be a good idea by assassin's starting skills & loadout.)

[Sprucery]

The way I see it, a needle assassin would primarily try to stab things with stealth, but if that fails, needles would give another shot at stabbing.

But yes, the amount or mulch rate of needles would probably have to be adjusted for this to be a viable strategy.

[nielsenj]

I am thinking that needle assasin is same with lethal injection in which it will poison the opponent and in which case it will kill him.

[KittenInMyCerealz]

Sleep/para needle assassin would be the same thing - those needles are extremely rare, at present, and unless that was changed, focusing on stealth/throwing to be a needle-based stabbing character would be a very bad idea. (But, again, one that's implied to be a good idea by assassin's starting skills & loadout.)

but that can be solved by worshipping trog or to a lesser extent, oka.

[Hurkyl]

I dunno, I play assassins using stealth and dagger primarily for at least the first 3-4 levels, I only break out the blowgun for an early awake ogre or orc warrior.

Imho that isnt misleading at all. Admittedly there are some people who play assassins like blowgun hunters.

It doesn't seem misleading to me if you interpret 'assassin' through the more traditional 'guy who kills people for money, often with poison or from afar, ideally without anyone knowing'

The whole 'surprise stabbing' thing is hardly the entire gambit of an assassin

The game does tell you how to interpret it:

  Code:

Assassins are all about stealth, ready to stab unaware opponents. Not just cloak and dagger, they carry nasty curare needles for their blowgun.

[Berder]

If blowgun were an option for hunters, why would any hunter choose anything other than a blowgun? Blowguns are amazing, any other early game launcher is meh.

[jejorda2]

Do we need a shoddy early game needle launcher? Maybe it takes 2 turns to shoot a needle and makes a noise?

Call it an oboe.

[duvessa]

All you would need to do is adjust the number of needles you start with...

[XuaXua]

All you would need to do is adjust the number of needles you start with...

I think low, equal, amounts of both poison and confusion (5 each) would work.

[Berder]

All you would need to do is adjust the number of needles you start with...

Poison needles often drop in the early dungeon before a blowgun drops. You would need to also reduce the chance of that happening, otherwise restricted ammo wouldn't be much of a restraint.

[wheals]

If blowgun were an option for hunters, why would any hunter choose anything other than a blowgun? Blowguns are amazing, any other early game launcher is meh.

A non-zero amount of people right now play hunters, while they could of course play an assassin. So I don't see what the difference between the status quo and a merged background would be here.

[duvessa]

All you would need to do is adjust the number of needles you start with...

Poison needles often drop in the early dungeon before a blowgun drops. You would need to also reduce the chance of that happening, otherwise restricted ammo wouldn't be much of a restraint.

what

arrows, bolts, sling bullets, stones, tomahawks, javelins, and large rocks drop in the early dungeon too

[Sar]

My guess is most characters won't be looking for these but most characters will be looking for needles, which might create an impression needles are more common.

Inb4 numbers.

[jejorda2]

I think poison needles are better than those other missiles because they continue to damage the opponent while you walk away. I think this is why assassins are a stronger start than hunters.

A longbow or triple crossbow at minimum delay is better than a blowgun with curare against many enemies, but a blowgun is much better than a hand crossbow on D1 with starting skill levels.

[Sandman25]

Sling bullets are better than poison needles vs many monsters.

[PleasingFungus]

A non-zero amount of people right now play hunters, while they could of course play an assassin. So I don't see what the difference between the status quo and a merged background would be here.

Scoreboard purposes, probably.

People play wr...

[duvessa]

wr is the strongest warrior-mage background

a better argument is that people play monk

[Berder]

All you would need to do is adjust the number of needles you start with...

Poison needles often drop in the early dungeon before a blowgun drops. You would need to also reduce the chance of that happening, otherwise restricted ammo wouldn't be much of a restraint.

what

arrows, bolts, sling bullets, stones, tomahawks, javelins, and large rocks drop in the early dungeon too

That's not the point. Your proposal to reduce the number of starting needles was intended as a nerf to the starting blowgun, wasn't it? It's not much of a nerf if they have adequate needles anyway because of early drops.

I mean, all you need is one stack of 15 needles and you're pretty well set until lair, as long as you don't use them when you don't need them. That's usually enough to kill every ogre and orc warrior you come across. It will certainly last you until you find another stack of 15 needles.

[KittenInMyCerealz]

I don't see the overlap between these 2 backgrounds at all. Only thing they have in common is that they have a way to deal ranged damage, and both the damage type and the way they deal it is different. I Play my assassins as stealth stabbers that use their needles as a panic button/use them on tougher enemies; Nothing alike hunters.
It's like merging the Ice/Fire/Air/Venom/Earth mages under a same class with you choosing a spellbook.

[Hurkyl]

I don't see the overlap between these 2 backgrounds at all. Only thing they have in common is that they have a way to deal ranged damage, and both the damage type and the way they deal it is different. I Play my assassins as stealth stabbers that use their needles as a panic button/use them on tougher enemies; Nothing alike hunters.
It's like merging the Ice/Fire/Air/Venom/Earth mages under a same class with you choosing a spellbook.

So... you kill things with a short blade unless it's dangerous in which case you kill it with a ranged weapon. That sounds like how I play hunters in the beginning.

[Rast]

This thread makes me wonder:

If a background started with a melee weapon of venom, would that automatically be imbalanced, even before we look at its other items and starting skills?

[duvessa]

yes

[Zooty]

Well it could be a scythe of venom

[Brannock]

This thread makes me wonder:

If a background started with a melee weapon of venom, would that automatically be imbalanced, even before we look at its other items and starting skills?

Venom is a particularly good brand for the early game because it allows you to win virtually every single fight via kiting shenanigans once you can proc the poison.

As the only functional purpose of backgrounds is to guarantee you a loadout of items for the early game, the background that gives you the strongest early game is going to be automatically better than any other background (even the ones that might give you a somewhat stronger midgame) because it has the best chance of ensuring your survival to the midgame.

[Lasty]

When rast mentioned this idea to me, my first reaction was also "too strong", but I'm not sure it's actually stronger than starting with the book of frost or Trog. I'm not even sure it's stronger than starting with a blowgun.

[duvessa]

those are also unbalanced

[Sar]

VM gets infnite sting.

[Sandman25]

SpVM gets infnite sting.

FTFY