Minotaurs!

[Zelkelion]

I'd like to see Minotaurs with stronger weapon aptitudes. I like the change to armor, but it would be great to see them able to use all kinds of weapons.

The reduction to short blades makes sense, since they're something more dextrous races might use.

I could see Minotaur weapon aptitudes something closer to SB: -1 / LB: 2 or 3 / AX: 3 / M&F: 3 / PL: 3 / UN: 3

LB being 2 or 3 is because while most of the long blades take some finesse as well, there are the great swords.

And please, PLEASE! give back Throwing aptitude. Why did you remove this? It's senseless and pointless. I would think a huge, powerful Minotaur could throw weapons quite well.

[nicolae]

I'd like to see Minotaurs with stronger weapon aptitudes. I like the change to armor, but it would be great to see them able to use all kinds of weapons.

But they already can use all kinds of weapons, they're +2 in all weapons but short blades. That's not a bad aptitude.

[Zelkelion]

I'd like to see Minotaurs with stronger weapon aptitudes. I like the change to armor, but it would be great to see them able to use all kinds of weapons.

But they already can use all kinds of weapons, they're +2 in all weapons but short blades. That's not a bad aptitude.

It's not BAD but it's not GREAT. Considering that they cannot use magic freely wouldn't it be an advantage to be able to use multiple weapons well? Realistically when I'm playing most races I'll pick a weapon type with a good aptitude and stick with that. If I'm halfway into the game and find an artifact of a different type, most of the time it's too late to reinvest unless the skills can crosstrain. I'd like to see a weaponsmaster type race.

Being good with all kinds of weapons should also be more than enough reason to have an aptitude in Throwing since they can manage all kinds of projectiles.

[TwilightPhoenix]

If you're following Ashenzari and willing to abuse the skill reassignment ability, yes being skilled in multiple weapon types is a major advantage. Otherwise no, because all the XP you invested in a weapon type you're not using is wasted XP (cross-training aside). The primary advantage of multiple good weapon aptitudes is being able to just grab whatever good shows up first and stick with that weapon type while you've invested little to no XP into your weapon skills.

[Zelkelion]

If you're following Ashenzari and willing to abuse the skill reassignment ability, yes being skilled in multiple weapon types is a major advantage. Otherwise no, because all the XP you invested in a weapon type you're not using is wasted XP (cross-training aside). The primary advantage of multiple good weapon aptitudes is being able to just grab whatever good shows up first and stick with that weapon type while you've invested little to no XP into your weapon skills.

What about those times when you have an axe of anti-magic, a mace of frost, a spear of dragonslaying, etc? I like the image of a fearsome minotaur stalking the dungeons, a horde of weapons strapped across his back.

[KoboldLord]

What about those times when you have an axe of anti-magic, a mace of frost, a spear of dragonslaying, etc? I like the image of a fearsome minotaur stalking the dungeons, a horde of weapons strapped across his back.

Drop all the crap and just use the one single weapon that is the best. Building up weapon skills is extremely expensive, particularly in the early game before you have access to top-end weapons. If you find an orc-slaying falchion at the entrance to the Orcish Mines, and you've been training maces all game, you leave that crap on the ground where you found it because even with the brand bonus against orcs it still won't deal as much damage as whatever mace or flail you've been using that's already hit minimum delay.

[TwilightPhoenix]

What about those times when you have an axe of anti-magic, a mace of frost, a spear of dragonslaying, etc?

In most cases, I'd just use the mace and toss the other two, assuming all three weapons were of equal "tier". If it was a choice between a Hand Axe, a Flail, and a Demon Trident, I'd go for the Demon Trident every time.

[File200]

Having high aptitudes in multiple weapon skills does not give you more flexibility in terms of combat. You will pick up one good weapon and use it regardless of aptitude, to the exclusion of other weapons. Incidentally, a difference of one aptitude point is not that significant in terms of final skills.

Besides, if I were to change anything about minotaurs, I would not go in the direction of "Greater skills." ATM, playing a minotaur doesn't feel much like playing a dungeon-stalking monstrous humanoid. I've tested some changes to minotaurs that I feel make the race more interesting. The first is intrinsic dungeon-mapping (as a deep dwarf) and higher T&D, to reflect their love of mazes. The second is greater stealth, while lowering weapon and defense aptitudes to encourage more cautious play. My third idea was to give them saprovore 1, which was sort of convenient. I tried giving them the hooves mutation, but found that it was too powerful for a low-level character and made weapons irrelevant. Berserkitis was, predictably, a terrible idea.

E: I don't think there's anything wrong with minotaur playstyle in their current implementation, but they are sadly devoid of flavor. I would be in favor of adding some kind of mutation to the race that makes them feel more beastly.

[goo]

I've been further refining the whole berserk idea for Minotaurs.

A special ability for Minotaurs called Charge that functions similarly to Draconian breath (in that it is on a timer), and acts as a mini-berserk. You target a creature in your LOS. You go berserk (getting all the regular bonuses from berserk) and lose control of your character. That character automatically makes their way to the target and hits them one time. Then the berserk wears off and they are exhausted, unable to charge again or use any other means of berserk until the timer resets. However, there is no slow penalty.

It's flavorful (bulls see red and charge), and balanced (in theory, anyway). It helps you close the distance on enemies, however you are open to attacks during this time. It can't be cancelled until you make contact with your target. If the attack misses, the berserk is still cancelled (to prevent you from flailing around like an idiot unable to do anything in case you use it on a high evasion enemy like a wisp or something). It's similar to Draconian breath, except YOU are the projectile.

EDIT: Of course, now that I think about it, there are others things that could cancel it. The enemy turns invisible (and you don't have a source of see invis), or they teleport out of the way. Hell, maybe if the enemy manages to avoid the charge via going invisible, teleporting, or any other crafty means, your character becomes confused. ("Where did he go?!") This idea isn't perfect, obviously, but I think with some tweaking it could be a good ability and make Minotaurs more interesting.

Also, if Hooves 3 is too powerful, maybe just Hooves 1 or 2? I know if you have Claws 1 or 2 and you wear gloves, it cancels out the damage bonus. Are hooves the same way with wearing boots? If so, It could provide a choice between a little extra AC or a little extra damage.

One more thing, instead of passive dungeon mapping, give them level 1 of monster sensing. This way, they don't step on the toes of deep dwarves, but still have an ability that fits with the theme of them being predators that track down their prey in a labyrinth.

[Konebred]

Minos are a little bland considering they are bloodthirsty half man half bull monsters. Hell I think all races should get some sort of unique trait no other race gets. If Minos are weapon masters, how about just giving them a straight damage boost at 14 and 25? Maybe make it so Minos are the only race that can cross train every weapon, so no matter what weapon you start with you can always cross train when you find a randart. I also think the breath mechanic is under utilized. Maybe some sort of battle shout minos get that increase their accuracy that takes food and breath to use, and has a long breath cool down.