Please enlighten me about the new trap "system".

[comebackshane]

So, from what I understand (correct me if I'm wrong):

-There are dramatically more traps in the dungeon than before
-Shadow traps were added (I actually find those a cool addition)
-The chance of detecting traps is solely based on XL with the exception of some divine abilities, TSO and Ash help detecting them iirc. Maybe one other that I forgot.
-You can not fly over them anymore

Why I think this is BAD:

-There is 0 interaction between the player and the trap. No flying over them, no disarming them, no save roll when you spring one, no setting one up yourself.
-Unless you limit your god choices to a very limited set of deities, there is also no way of detecting them. It is entirely based on XL (read: fate, or rather doom, as the case may often be).

This makes traps

-Boring, frustrating and arbitrary. There is almost no counterplay possible. Whether you spring a trap or not is up to chance.

I fail to see what this is supposed to accomplish other than randoly killing off low-level characters that stumble into a shaft and fall 3 floors.

You can add as many traps as you want, make them as lethal as you want, if the player had some way of dealing with them. Maybe tie trap detection to the stealth skill?

For starters, I think the main dungeon could use a wider variety of traps. Use some of the less lethal ones on early floors instead of only shadow/shaft/teleport, like the ones in the ossuary.
Speaking of the ossuary, you can for example draw a scorpion over a needle trap to kill it. YAY, SOMETHING INTERESTING A PLAYER CAN DO WITH A TRAP! #Hope

[Pereza0]

You could try old versions of crawl.

Traps were a lot more common, there was more interaction with them and even a skill.

But it didn't add much to the game.

The traps skill was usually raised up to a number that made traps not relevant anymore (so you would notice them earlier) and tha is it. Divine skills are IMO a better way to handle them - its not just something every character will drop some XP on and never touch again.

Mechanical traps just substract a chunk of HP from you - not much to be done in the way of counterplay. And sometimes they did result in one hit kills (deep_elf_steps_on_blade_trap.png).

Traps as they stand provide an interesting challenge IMO. Shadow traps, shafts, alarm traps and teleport traps create interesting situations that are almost never immediately lethal. Triggering them has no counterplay, dealing with them does, more so than with "classic" traps. The flying over them thing... I don't mind it, as long as it makes sense. Giving suctionary powers to a shaft is kind of silly

Using traps against your enemies is something I do kinda miss, but there are still enough resources in the dungeon to deal with enemies if you are having trouble anyway. Disabling them is not that significant when you can just not step on them. Setting them up would encourage some very tedious gameplay.

[Sandman25]

I liked Traps&Doors skill, it allowed players to make decisions. Current traps are too random (read "cruel"), especially Shadow Traps and Shafts.

[Greyr]

I liked Traps&Doors skill, it allowed players to make decisions. Current traps are too random (read "cruel"), especially Shadow Traps and Shafts.

I have been killed more by traps in the older versions of crawl than the newer. The T&D skill was laughable, imo. Talk about a no-brainer... Just get it to 10 around vaults and you were set, before that, however, you were likely to by one-shot by an errant blade trap.

[Sandman25]

I liked Traps&Doors skill, it allowed players to make decisions. Current traps are too random (read "cruel"), especially Shadow Traps and Shafts.

I have been killed more by traps in the older versions of crawl than the newer. The T&D skill was laughable, imo. Talk about a no-brainer... Just get it to 10 around vaults and you were set, before that, however, you were likely to by one-shot by an errant blade trap.

This is what I am talking about. I had Traps&Doors 10 by Lair 8, about 15-20 before Zot and was killed less often than nowadays.
Also moving at low HP is still a bad idea (yes, I know about speedrunning and remembering tiles which you have already stepped on)

[Pereza0]

This is what I am talking about. I had Traps&Doors 10 by Lair 8, about 15-20 before Zot and was killed less often than nowadays.
Also moving at low HP is still a bad idea (yes, I know about speedrunning and remembering tiles which you have already stepped on)

Thing is, what sounds more interesting to you.

* Having a skill that you basically raise to some arbitrary number because some guy in a forum told you it works fine and then you never ever worry about again until you step on a square that takes off an arbitrary amount of your HP, then you decide its time to put some more points in said skill.

Or

* Having the possibility of suddenly finding yourself in a potentially very threatening situation, which will require you use whatever resources and tactics you have available to survive. Depending on what you stepped on the best strategy will be different.

The first is definitely easier to handle, but also less interesting to me.

[duvessa]

Speaking of the ossuary, you can for example draw a scorpion over a needle trap to kill it. YAY, SOMETHING INTERESTING A PLAYER CAN DO WITH A TRAP! #Hope

Why do you think this is desirable? I would say this is the second worst part of traps in Crawl (the first worst part being the effect of unknown traps on movement).

[Sandman25]

Thing is, what sounds more interesting to you.

* Having a skill that you basically raise to some arbitrary number because some guy in a forum told you it works fine and then you never ever worry about again until you step on a square that takes off an arbitrary amount of your HP, then you decide its time to put some more points in said skill.

Or

* Having the possibility of suddenly finding yourself in a potentially very threatening situation, which will require you use whatever resources and tactics you have available to survive. Depending on what you stepped on the best strategy will be different.

The first is definitely easier to handle, but also less interesting to me.

Good question. I hope you don't pick up evocables, don't train fighting/armour/doding to make it even more interesting

  Code:

38804 | D:12     | You fall through a shaft for 3 floors!
38804 | D:15     | Entered Level 15 of the Dungeon

Do you think it is interesting?

This is really off topic, sorry.

[Kismet]

Shafting heheh is interesting. I savour silly/arbitrary deaths though.

[Pereza0]

Good question. I hope you don't pick up evocables, don't train fighting/armour/doding to make it even more interesting

You didn't answer my question

38804 | D:12 | You fall through a shaft for 3 floors!
38804 | D:15 | Entered Level 15 of the Dungeon[/code]
Do you think it is interesting?

Actually... yes.

It puts you in a situation where you should use all the tools you have available to make it to the upstairs, magic mapping, etc... It is a unique and engaging situation in the game to me. And though D:15 is more dangerous than D:12 you should be able to survive it long enough to escape it.

Can it result in unfair situations? Maybe. But so can having a blade trap chop you in half while you escape from something mildly threatening while mildly injured and it is a far sadder way to die.

[crate]

If you like random things happening to you while you explore (this is what stepping on an unknown trap does) I would suggest that just making the effects part of exploring (a la hell effects) would be a better implementation. This gets all the random lulz of unknown traps, without the bad side effects that tying them to a particular space has.

[Pereza0]

If you like random things happening to you while you explore (this is what stepping on an unknown trap does) I would suggest that just making the effects part of exploring (a la hell effects) would be a better implementation. This gets all the random lulz of unknown traps, without the bad side effects that tying them to a particular space has.

Problem with that is you kinda discourage resting too much, as it is likely that a significant part of those effects happen while you are resting. Also annoying for backtracking

[crate]

You can of course make them not trigger while resting, or any other way you want to change them (exploration piety would seem to have a good model). But tying traps to one single space is, by the way, already annoying for backtracking: autoexplore and autotravel do not remember which spaces your character has traveled over, and if you step on new ones you risk running into a trap.

[Sandman25]

You didn't answer my question

I like the former.
Let me explain. My current character is underpowered MuEn of Chei. I am really weak for all branches, I was really low on all resources (no blinks, no teleports (even by ring), no potions obviously, recharging/wand of teleport is still unknown even now at XL 17). I couldn't explore even a quarter of Lair 8 so I returned to Dungeon to clear previously escaped regions/monsters in D1-D10, then cleared Orc 1-3 but couldn't clear Orc 4 end vault (2 Orc Warlords). So I returned to Lair to clear previously escaped monsters/regions in Lair 1-7, cleared half of Lair 8 but couldn't clear more, it was too dangerous. So I entered D12 to be ready for those Warlords. And what did I get there? A trip to D15.
No, thanks, it could ruin my careful game if I landed in the middle of Skeleton Warriors pack despite my Stealth/Hexes etc.
Fortunately I survived by it is still a crazy game: returned to D12, more Lair 8 (because D13 had some Skeleton Warriors and dancing weapons), Orc 4, Swamp 1, some D13, all D14/D15, finally cleared Lair 8 (found invis), Swamp 1 again, Snake 1, Swamp 2/3/4/5, Snake 2, finally cleared D13, entered Elf 1, entered Vaults 1 and now I am not sure where I want to die.
Do you still think I really need traps for interesting situations?

[bel]

One can't expect to design a game around Mu of Chei.

Traps are ok for twists and stuff. Hell effects kinda stuff is fine as well (with them off while resting).

[Pereza0]

You can of course make them not trigger while resting, or any other way you want to change them (exploration piety would seem to have a good model). But tying traps to one single space is, by the way, already annoying for backtracking: autoexplore and autotravel do not remember which spaces your character has traveled over, and if you step on new ones you risk running into a trap.

Interesting.

Maybe... I still like the idea of having traps bound to space.

I also like the idea of monsters triggering traps against the player (maybe this could be elaborated further? make them always be detected but intelligent monsters will deliberately try to trigger them?) something that would be gone with this change.

Maybe make some behind-the-curtains model that determines when a player should step on a trap (and then spawn it under his feet) according to things like percentage of level explored, pathfinding or stuff like that. Would have to be implemented carefully so it could avoid scumming and stuff like that but could be nice. Also, evil

You didn't answer my question

I like the former.
Let me explain. My current character is underpowered MuEn of Chei. I am really weak for all branches, I was really low on all resources (no blinks, no teleports (even by ring), no potions obviously, recharging/wand of teleport is still unknown even now at XL 17). I couldn't explore even a quarter of Lair 8 so I returned to Dungeon to clear previously escaped regions/monsters in D1-D10, then cleared Orc 1-3 but couldn't clear Orc 4 end vault (2 Orc Warlords). So I returned to Lair to clear previously escaped monsters/regions in Lair 1-7, cleared half of Lair 8 but couldn't clear more, it was too dangerous. So I entered D12 to be ready for those Warlords. And what did I get there? A trip to D15.
No, thanks, it could ruin my careful game if I landed in the middle of Skeleton Warriors pack despite my Stealth/Hexes etc.
Fortunately I survived by it is still a crazy game: returned to D12, more Lair 8 (because D13 had some Skeleton Warriors and dancing weapons), Orc 4, Swamp 1, some D13, all D14/D15, finally cleared Lair 8 (found invis), Swamp 1 again, Snake 1, Swamp 2/3/4/5, Snake 2, finally cleared D13, entered Elf 1, entered Vaults 1 and now I am not sure where I want to die.
Do you still think I really need traps for interesting situations?

Well it certainly resulted in a change of pace didn't it?

Good luck with your character though! A Mummy (of Chei, no less!) sounds pretty daunting to me.

[Sandman25]

One can't expect to design a game around Mu of Chei.

Traps are ok for twists and stuff. Hell effects kinda stuff is fine as well (with them off while resting).

My point was that traps is a way to make game interesting for OP characters. crawl should be fun/interesting without random undetected traps. With uniques you can at least blame players for not training some skills like stealth/dodging/armor/fighting or not wearing some items which give mr/rf+/rc+ etc. With traps you can blame player for nothing or for moving into "unstepped previously" tiles while fighting some dangerous monsters.

[bel]

My point was that traps is a way to make game interesting for OP characters. crawl should be fun/interesting without random undetected traps. With uniques you can at least blame players for not training some skills like stealth/dodging/armor/fighting or not wearing some items which give mr/rf+/rc+ etc. With traps you can blame player for nothing or for moving into "unstepped previously" tiles while fighting some dangerous monsters.

Crawl is interesting without traps. Traps just add another layer of randomness. They are not instadeath. If you get marked quaff potion of cancellation. Or for shadow trap use scroll of blinking, or fear, or just run.

The early dungeon just wants you dead, and is full of such RNG stuff. Like facing Sigmund without having potions of curing. The other day Jessica, who is a totally innocuous monster, resisted two hexes, blinked randomly right next to me, hasted, quaffed a potion of agility and cast pain twice. Stuff happens.

[Sandman25]

Crawl is interesting without traps. Traps just add another layer of randomness. They are not instadeath. If you get marked quaff potion of cancellation. Or for shadow trap use scroll of blinking, or fear, or just run.

The early dungeon just wants you dead, and is full of such RNG stuff. Like facing Sigmund without having potions of curing. The other day Jessica, who is a totally innocuous monster, resisted two hexes, blinked randomly right next to me, hasted, quaffed a potion of agility and cast pain twice. Stuff happens.

Crate is right, current traps are just like hell effects. But Hell is supposed to be optional. I guess if players don't want to get Xom-like effects but want to play crawl more like chess (carefully moving/reading/quaffing), they must find another game.

[bel]

Chess was invented by bughouse players too bad to get a partner.

[duvessa]

Current traps aren't just like hell effects, they're enormously worse and horrible and stupid because they make it optimal to keep track of which squares you and monsters have stepped on.

Unknown traps really need to trigger as soon as their square comes into LOS, rather than when their square is stepped on. The only other changes this would require are to vaults that place traps, which is good because vaults that place traps are already the dumbest thing ever.