Beogh thoughts: Permanent allies & resurrection?

[njvack]

I've liked Beogh for a while. He's actually the thing that got me interested in Crawl in the first place. What's strange about him is that I've continued to like him even though keeping permanent allies around can be outrageously irritating -- keeping them alive is a big investment, getting them geared up can be a chore (though that's better now), they start fights you might want to stay out of, and at the end of the day, if you can be strong enough to kill everything yourself (and even godless HO is totally strong enough for that) why bother?

I didn't really think about it until this post, where I realized:

I get emotionally attached to Beogh allies. It's the reason I play Beoghvites, and it's unique to Beogh (well, a little with Yred, too, though the allies are kind of undifferentiated there). This may be because I like RPGs and it kind of makes Crawl into an RPG which I know it isn't but whatever. I'll put up with interface screws and frustration and suboptimal whatever because I like going through the dungeon with Oreg and company. When he dies, I'm not upset mainly because I lost a warlord, I'm upset because Oreg was acted like an idiot and now he's dead.

In essence, in a game made for Diamonds and Spades, Beogh appeals to my inner Heart.

To that end, I think the things that make him fun for me are primarily things that increase connection between me and my cohort. Keeping them down in number (12 is a natural fit but I think it's too many, mechanically) helps not only because it's less work, but because I can't remember 12 orcs' names. And watching hordes of my orcish chaff get culled rather cheapens my feelings towards allies in general. Your dudes getting killed should be a big deal.

Of course, that will happen from time to time. Preventing stupid AI behavior in all cases is hard. So I'd suggest a capstone Beogh ability: Resurrect an ally.

This ability would need to be expensive. Partly, because a well-equipped warlord is a big asset, but more, because your dudes getting killed should be a big deal. I think either a strategic cost (say, 1 XL, or Borg-like maxhp) with a generous amount of time to revive an ally, or a major tactical cost (self-torment, heavy draining) with the need to activate it very quickly at the site of the death*. It's either something you can't afford to do many times in a game, or you need to put yourself in danger to whatever killed your buddy.

Even if this ability is too expensive to be "good," I'd use it. Why? Because for me, Beogh isn't primarily about winning. Fedhas and Makhleb and Trog exist for that. Beogh is for getting that orb with buddies.

TL;DR: njvack plays crawl wrong

* A way the tactical option could work: For, say, 10 turns after an ally is killed, you can invoke an ability to resurrect the ally. This immediately teleports you to where the ally died (as close as possible given terrain), revives the ally at 50% health, and torments you.

[kuniqs]

Haven't played Beogh for a looong time, but I don't think orc allies need to be even more hilariously overpowered.
My shot at this: you are offered to ressurect an ally, at the moment of death, at the cost of a different ally dying. Relative to power (you can't resurrect warlord with an ordinary orc)

[Pereza0]

I disagree. Resurrection basically negates the consequences of your decisions and mishandlings.

What we need is... proper funerals.

At the moment of death of your beloved orc you will get a variety options for his or her funeral. Ranging from the humble but solemn burial to the outrageously expensive Crystal Plate Boat Orc Viking Funeral, Beogh offers a range of flexible and affordable payment options designed to suit every budget, of course to be paid with in-game gold. But beware, if he notices you skimming on your minion's funeral preparations you might incur in his wrath. You might also want to hire a lawyer, orcs are covetous creatures - a harmless squabble over inherited items could easily end in injury or death... and further funerals.

[njvack]

I disagree. Resurrection basically negates the consequences of your decisions and mishandlings.

There are a lot of potential ally deaths that aren't really preventable by the player. Lots of them stem from the fact that monsters don't have access to resistances or consumables like player characters do. Example: ally is in a hall, sees a swamp dragon, which kills warlords great. I think(!) warlords will drown themselves if confused. I don't think these kinds of things are changeable as long as allies are basically monsters; the whole of Crawl is based around the player being able to survive 1000+ monster encounters and the disparities are baked in pretty deep.

Whether or not this negates the consequences of your decisions depends on what the cost is. If it's free, yeah. If the cost is high, you need to decide if and when to use it. Losing an XL would make you think. Losing six stars of piety would make you think, if for no other reason than you'd need to rebuild piety before you could use it again.

The thing I like about the "put yourself at risk" route is that you kind of get a freebie when your ally dies in a stupid way that presents no actual risk to a player (like that late-game poison cloud), but if you really do get yourself in over your head in Vaults and your guys are getting killed... do you leave them? Or do you buff up and take the plunge?

[Pereza0]

Sorry, I was not really being serious. That sentence was basically setting up the rest of my post.

I think most of the problems come from the AI being really dumb, I don't know if they are smarter than the regular summon, but they probably should be

[dynast]

My main issue with worshipping beogh is that drawing a mercenary card seems more fun and can be done with any species, raising a naga into a greater naga that is magic immune, can haste and demolish your enemies with spells beats having a bunch of mindless orcs anyday.

So yeah, i think beogh needs more of that, raising orcs into unique heroes that have special spells/abilities of their own.

[nitkis]

I disagree. Resurrection basically negates the consequences of your decisions and mishandlings.

There are a lot of potential ally deaths that aren't really preventable by the player. Lots of them stem from the fact that monsters don't have access to resistances or consumables like player characters do

How about if you could throw your followers with potions to heal/buff them. It'd be hilarious