Multiple evocable suggestion


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Post Monday, 26th January 2015, 18:03

Re: Multiple evocable suggestion

XuaXua wrote:What if the elemental evokers were unique?

That's what all the talk about them being fixedarts is about.
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Post Monday, 26th January 2015, 18:07

Re: Multiple evocable suggestion

To be fair, if you make the elemantal evokers into fixedarts, you might as well make all the only-one-is-useful rings into fixedarts too (as well as cboe, disc of storms, lantern of shadows...). Not sure that I would say that's a bad thing, necessarily, but it's probably worth noting.

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Post Monday, 26th January 2015, 18:15

Re: Multiple evocable suggestion

Currently almost every character has all these items in 3 rune games, it makes all character feel similar and this is bad IMHO. Is it possible to make fan of gales use average of (Evocation + Air Magic), lamp of fire use average of (Evocation + Fire Magic), sack of spiders (Evocation + Poison Magic) etc.? It would help with variety, different characters would prefer different items.
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Post Monday, 26th January 2015, 18:44

Re: Multiple evocable suggestion

Sandman25 wrote:Currently almost every character has all these items in 3 rune games, it makes all character feel similar and this is bad IMHO. Is it possible to make fan of gales use average of (Evocation + Air Magic), lamp of fire use average of (Evocation + Fire Magic), sack of spiders (Evocation + Poison Magic) etc.? It would help with variety, different characters would prefer different items.


Box of Beasts (Evocation + Summoning)

Also you'd need to allow skilling of the relevant spell skill if the item is held; could be extended to the discussion in "Skill Training Restrictions"

Do note that the Box and the Sack (HAA HA HAHAH) both fall apart over usage times (chuckle). Perhaps the elemental evocables should also be given expiration.
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Post Monday, 26th January 2015, 19:35

Re: Multiple evocable suggestion

Agreed that evocables are too powerful in aggregate. Skilling evocations is a no-brainer. So many powerful evocables generate in a typical game, you're just leaving combat effectiveness on the ground if you don't skill evocations. Most races have good evocations aptitudes, so the skill is cheap too.

There are a number of different variables that control the power of evocables and the evocations skill, including the type and amount of skill needed to use items effectively, but critically, since they're items, the question of how many of them and what types you can get plays a huge role as does how many times you can use the ones you get. If the expectation in a three rune game is that you're going to get a total of at least 6 elemental evokers and so many bags of spiders and boxes of beasts you leave most behind, it's crazy not to use them. But if you can expect to find only 1 or 2 elemental evokers (and likely not a fan of gales, which I would say is the most tactically valuable of them) if you're lucky and maybe a bag of spiders or a box of beasts, it becomes less obvious that you need a lot of evocations to realize your character's potential. In other words, it's okay to have powerful items if it's not easy to get as many as you could want.

If you weren't sure to get them, the situation could look very different. This goes to Sandman's point. If supplies of evocables are limited, you're going to see more variety in endgame inventories in the form of gaps. Currently, endgame inventories of elemental evokers all look pretty much the same: You're going to have all you want.

As far as power scaling with number in a stack -- if I thought the premise of discharging in stacks was a good idea, I might like this as a compromise position. It doesn't address the issue that way too many fans/lamps/etc. are generated so that all characters can expect to have a bunch by the end of the game and the sameness that creates. And it's also hard to see how you make this work in a way that is interesting compared to the former situation, but not overpowered. How much can you increase the power of these items without making them even more of a no-brainer than they already are? Increasing the damage and number of summons from these things doesn't seem like a great idea to me. If they're overpowered now, I don't see an interesting future for enhancement based on stacking -- it's just going to be a reason for further nerfing where eventually you need more than one of them to get the effect of one now. At least before you had to expend multiple turns to get more damage and summons out of them, you had to worry about hitting your old summons with them, etc. Moreover, if the charge rates don't change, you're going to be able to use them quite frequently, even if you have a stack of three.
Last edited by mps on Monday, 26th January 2015, 19:40, edited 2 times in total.
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Post Monday, 26th January 2015, 19:38

Re: Multiple evocable suggestion

mps wrote:. Most races have good evocations aptitudes, so the skill is cheap too.


That was due to some major balancing issue a few major versions ago, where all races had their Evo skill aptitude increased by +1, I believe.
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Post Monday, 26th January 2015, 19:45

Re: Multiple evocable suggestion

XuaXua wrote:
mps wrote:. Most races have good evocations aptitudes, so the skill is cheap too.


That was due to some major balancing issue a few major versions ago, where all races had their Evo skill aptitude increased by +1, I believe.

They secretly had that +1 (actually better) ever since the new apt display was instituted, it was just hidden from the player (the human apt for evocations was 75 in the old system; 100 was the normal; spellcasting was 130); the change was actually a nerf to evocations (+1, the new human evocations apt, is 84, where lower is better).

It is true that evocations has a higher apt on average compared to most skills, but the blame there is on Linley.

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Post Monday, 26th January 2015, 20:05

Re: Multiple evocable suggestion

Glenstorm wrote:As a thought experiment, lets look at this situation in reverse. Pretend the items were currently fixedarts, and I came to GDD to suggest that they be made into stackable non-arts that make you able to shoot bigger gusts of winds because you're carrying 23 fans; I don't feel that idea would get much traction.


I'd like to see a similar mechanic for animal skins or a launcher or Rings of the Octopus King or something, somewhere. Like the Cog-whose-face Embrace spell, but without the casting. Using more does more, and they get consumed sometimes.

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Post Monday, 26th January 2015, 23:19

Re: Multiple evocable suggestion

crate wrote:well it's a pretty big nerf compared to 0.15, fwiw, so I don't really see the "it's trunk" argument here at all
It's not like Crawl had no experience with nerfing, and over-nerfing.

(for the record, evocables in general in crawl have had pretty ridiculous power creep in the past few versions, to the point where I would absolutely say that as a whole they are too strong, so I do agree with reducing the power level of evocables, but I also think that elemental evokers aren't even close to the most problematic things there [...] and of course the change PF actually made to evokers arguably creates some new design problems even if it adjusts their power level in the correct direction)
(very unhelpful phrase bolded)
I am commenting because your postings generally improve the level of the discourse.

So yes, we don't know exactly what the place of Evocations will be in future Crawl. (At least I don't.) It's true that right now the elemental evokers sit in a pretty strange spot, what with being stackable to no effect. Still, all the outcry about this apparent mishap detract from the two crucial topics, at least in my opinion:

1) What should Evocations do?
Are we happy with providing so many ranged effects for a single skill? Is balancing by rarity enough? (I doubt it.) Are the other costs we can introduce. Etc.

2) What are the power levels of current evokers?
Which underperform, which would you always carry and use.

Elemental evokers brought some pretty cool effects and a new mechanic to the game, but their balancing evolution is certainly not finished.

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Post Monday, 26th January 2015, 23:27

Re: Multiple evocable suggestion

It's not like Crawl had no experience with nerfing, and over-nerfing.

Yes, I'm just pointing out that bringing up "trunk" here is not relevant. I don't have a problem with the change from a power level standpoint at all.

---

(very unhelpful phrase bolded)

I didn't really mean it in the way you are interpreting it (I meant it in the sense of "it is obvious") though I probably should have chosen words with a different connotation in that context. I think I would rather see some reason for multiples of a specific evoker exist but it's not something I personally care about very much. It's not like evokers are lantern of shadows or anything.

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Post Tuesday, 27th January 2015, 22:42

Re: Multiple evocable suggestion

What about this: instead of larger stacks having bigger effects, larger stacks recharge faster.

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Post Tuesday, 27th January 2015, 22:57

Re: Multiple evocable suggestion

So... the solution now is that if you carry more than one, they no longer stack, but you fire all of them off at once?
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Post Tuesday, 27th January 2015, 23:00

Re: Multiple evocable suggestion

XuaXua: No. Duvessa's proposal is to give the stack the same power as now (i.e. as a single evoker), but you can use them more often. Because they recharge faster.

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Post Tuesday, 27th January 2015, 23:01

Re: Multiple evocable suggestion

What I'm suggesting is that they go back to stacking, and evoking one evoker depletes either all evokers of that type, or all evokers of all types (I prefer the latter). But larger stacks of evokers recharge faster.

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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 00:29

Re: Multiple evocable suggestion

My post was referring to last night's game I played in Trunk, where I had 2 lamps of fire in 2 inventory slots, and when I used one, both expired.

Duvessa's suggestion is a good fix; I'd lean towards all evokers of "that type".

Any thought to forcing an evoker to use MP beyond the mutation that does the same?
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Post Wednesday, 28th January 2015, 01:17

Re: Multiple evocable suggestion

Sprucery wrote:I think it would be fine if 1) evokables stack 2) they deplete all at once 3) the more evokables you have of a single type, the faster they reload.


duvessa wrote:What I'm suggesting is that they go back to stacking, and evoking one evoker depletes either all evokers of that type, or all evokers of all types (I prefer the latter). But larger stacks of evokers recharge faster.


Hey, I seem to agree.
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Post Wednesday, 13th May 2015, 19:14

Re: Multiple evocable suggestion

At this time, it is confusing to the unspoiled who encounter evokers after the first; there is nothing (text or otherwise) to indicate that it is sub-optimal to pick it up and carry it alongside your first identical evoker, even with the fact that it's listed as discharged.
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Post Wednesday, 13th May 2015, 23:13

Re: Multiple evocable suggestion

I thought the in-game text implied that it makes all others of its kind inert upon use? Made me think it was useless to carry more when I first picked one up.

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Post Thursday, 14th May 2015, 11:01

Re: Multiple evocable suggestion

I think that the fact that using an evocable makes every other evocable on the ground inert is strange and unintiutive. If you do not want to make them fixdarts for some reason I think making an evocable inert as soon as it touches the ground would make more sense and easier to understand. You need to hold it to keep it's power.
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Post Saturday, 30th May 2015, 02:54

Re: Multiple evocable suggestion

sanka wrote:You need to hold it to keep it's power.

That's not actually obvious. Wouldn't a player want to drop inert evokers until they recharged? This is what the description looks like:
  Code:
T - a lamp of fire.

A magical lamp inhabited by benevolent fire spirits. Unlatching the case sets
the spirits free to dance about in a blaze upon the bearer's enemies.
Once released, the spirits of this device will depart, leaving it and all other
devices of its kind inert. However, more spirits will be attracted as its
bearer grows in power and wisdom.

I think it deserves a little more description, like "It will not recharge unless it is carried in its inert form."

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Post Saturday, 30th May 2015, 06:27

Re: Multiple evocable suggestion

If you aren't carrying it, it doesn't have a 'bearer'.

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Post Saturday, 30th May 2015, 06:47

Re: Multiple evocable suggestion

Duvessa's fix seems good. I'd like to point out that avoiding the stacking thing specifically might be beneficial. Like, instead of "3 lamps of fire", have "lamp of fire +2" (if you pick up another one, it becomes 'lamp of fire +3'). To me, this seems somewhat less weird than having stack size affect recharging, since the +N idea is a common convention for representing power level (whether that power level is in terms of more damage output or quicker recharging).
Last edited by savageorange on Sunday, 31st May 2015, 00:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Saturday, 30th May 2015, 07:07

Re: Multiple evocable suggestion

PleasingFungus wrote:If you aren't carrying it, it doesn't have a 'bearer'.

Fine, but it's not obvious.

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Post Saturday, 30th May 2015, 16:23

Re: Multiple evocable suggestion

It's moot in any case, since the description was changed a few weeks ago. It now reads:

A magical lamp inhabited by benevolent fire spirits. Unlatching the case sets the spirits free to dance about in a blaze upon the bearer's enemies.

Once activated, this device and all others of its kind will be rendered temporarily inert. However, they will recharge as you gain experience.


Which doesn't even imply that you should be carrying it for it to recharge. Regrettable.
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Post Saturday, 30th May 2015, 18:15

Re: Multiple evocable suggestion

You could append "with it" to the end, or change the last sentence to:

However, if carried, they will recharge as you gain experience.

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Post Saturday, 30th May 2015, 20:15

Re: Multiple evocable suggestion

The problem with any idea like this is that it makes sure optimal play is to pack your inventory to the brim with elemental evokers. This exacerbates the problem of having to constantly stop to drop items in order to pick up other items.
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Post Saturday, 30th May 2015, 20:24

Re: Multiple evocable suggestion

Berder, are you accounting for evocables stacking?

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Post Saturday, 30th May 2015, 20:33

Re: Multiple evocable suggestion

PleasingFungus wrote:Berder, are you accounting for evocables stacking?

Oh, if they stack it's ok :)
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Post Sunday, 31st May 2015, 15:17

Re: Multiple evocable suggestion

savageorange wrote:Duvessa's fix seems good. I'd like to point out that avoiding the stacking thing specifically might be beneficial. Like, instead of "3 lamps of fire", have "lamp of fire +2" (if you pick up another one, it becomes 'lamp of fire +3'). To me, this seems somewhat less weird than having stack size affect recharging, since the +N idea is a common convention for representing power level (whether that power level is in terms of more damage output or quicker recharging).


Right; it's not like you're going to unstack them.
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Post Monday, 1st June 2015, 17:40

Re: Multiple evocable suggestion

You pick up the lamp of fire. It fits neatly inside your older lamp.
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Post Monday, 1st June 2015, 17:58

Re: Multiple evocable suggestion

johlstei wrote:You pick up the lamp of fire. It fits neatly inside your older lamp.


You pick up the lamp of fire and transfer its contents to your current lamp of fire, then discard the container.

Doesn't really work with the Fan or Stone...
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Post Monday, 1st June 2015, 22:21

Re: Multiple evocable suggestion

Stones are flat like tablets, or they can be reinterpreted as a box full of stones, like a maraca.
You don't think fans can stack?
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