Skill training restrictions

[duvessa]

There are currently a bunch of restrictions on when you can train skills:
- you have to carry a weapon to train the corresponding weapon skill, you have to carry a shield to train shields, an item that uses evocations to train evocations, etc.
- but carrying an item that uses ice magic (staff of cold) or an item that uses necromancy (weapon of pain) doesn't let you train ice magic or necromancy; you have to memorize spells
- and so on

Do these really add anything worthwhile? It seems like a really pointless holdover from back when you had to victory dance skills to level 1 before you could see them. And it occasionally leads to silly things like memorizing uncastable spells because you're not allowed to make them into castable spells first. Or getting booted into the skill menu because you dropped your weapon/shield/whatever.

I think it would be better if:
- you are allowed to train all skills at all times, except those forbidden by your species
- the current restriction rules are instead used to decide whether or not a skill should appear on the "default" skill screen view, i.e. it looks the same as it does now, but if you press * you can select any skill
- and are also used to decide whether or not a skill should be on or off in automatic mode
This way the screen will look the same to first-time players.

The only undesirable effect I can think of that would result from this is that unspoiled players might be fooled into thinking invocations skill does something with Trog/Nemelex/Kiku/etc. I'm not convinced this is something that would actually happen, though, and I would suggest that the real problem is that there's a skill called "invocations" and a bunch of invocations that ignore that skill.

[tasonir]

On a related note, the restriction that you must have spell school to 10 and spellcasting at 6 before being able to memorize spells from high level books can prevent you training that school if you haven't already found a spell in that school. I'll frequently pick up aura of abjuration as my only summoning spell and have to memorize some random summon before I'm allowed to train the 10 skill. Sometimes with controlled blink, but that's more rare as I usually have found a decent translocation beforehand.

I'm not sure this one has to be removed, but I figure it should at least be considered with the above proposal.

[Galefury]

I completely agree with duvessa. In fact I have made the same suggestion several times in the past. Even galehar who originally developed the new skill system and implemented the restrictions said he was fine with removing them, he just wouldn't do it himself. I think the restrictions are only still around because nobody stepped up to remove them, not because people think they actually serve a point.

[Siegurt]

The point of the restrictions is to prevent new players from spending XP on skills they can't use yet (Because training because you *hope* to get some item later is bad, and that's not really clear to a new player)

I'm not sure it's a useful or productive point that they serve, but there is such a point.

duvessa's Proposal preserves this point as a recommended, rather than forced, interface, which is probably better.

[Sandman25]

It's possible to add a new option like "train_all=false" to RC/init.txt. This way new players will not be able to do any mistakes but experienced players can enjoy more pleasant games. We already have something like that for confirm_butcher, auto_eat_chunks etc.

[KittenInMyCerealz]

Just like with shields, you should be allowed to train magic schools if you have a book in your inventory, which has spells from those schools in it.

[Quazifuji]

Just like with shields, you should be allowed to train magic schools if you have a book in your inventory, which has spells from those schools in it.

I would even say you should just need to have found the book, but not carry it with you. Same thing for weapons, shields, etc. Although at that point I guess you may as well just follow the original suggestion and make everything trainable, if we wanted to make sure players can't train anything that they are not at all capable of using right now while reducing the restrictions as much as possible this would work.

[dpeg]

duvessa's proposal is good. I think a patch would go in.

[neil]

One implementation detail would be figuring out what to do about the m screen hotkeys when toggling * mode. Should the default * mode skip some letters so that the hotkeys will stay the same when switching to show-all; or should the hotkeys change when toggling *.

There is also the case where you have some invo already but then switched to a non-invo god (or you used to have shields but ditched them). Since the default show mode lists all skills at >1 even if "untrainable", I think it might be a little easy to toggle it on. Maybe assigning letters to "useless now but trained" skills only in show-all mode and not in show-default? Or perhaps it's enough to assign them letters normally but give them a different colour?

[Turukano]

[Trog] deprecates:

• Memorizing or casting spells.
• Devoting skill points to magic skills, including spellcasting.
• ...

Is this restriction still in the game? If so - will you be allowed to train magic skills when you serve Trog? This might be an idea when you plan to switch gods. I personally wouldn't say yes or no but it has to be considered.

[damiac]

You are allowed to train magic skills when serving trog already. It just makes him angry with you. It just rarely come up, because who ever joins trog when they have spells? (Because who ever joins Trog? You just pick BE usually)

[Turukano]

It just rarely come up, because who ever joins trog when they have spells?

Well, the intention of my question was another. Imagine you serve Trog (whether from the very beginning or not). You think about abandoning him - and e.g. you might want to learn blink before you switch gods. This could be a useful option to escape from his wrath.

Will you be allowed to push XP into translocations while still worshipping him? Or will it be like it is at the moment - Trog forbids increasing magic skills?

[Giant Orange Brainbow Dash]

You're misreading the wiki. It's not forbidden, it just makes him angry.

That idea works fine though. Whenever I switch from Trog to anyone else, I always grab a blink book, memorize Blink on the spot, and then train Translocations and nothing else until I have the spell easily castable. That takes maybe a half dozen end-game quality kills, not very long at all. If he DOES manage to launch a hit team against me though, I just use a scroll of blinking and escape that way once. I'd rather do that then train while still worshiping Trog and risk him punishing me before I even leave.

[kroki]

You are allowed to train magic skills when serving trog already. It just makes him angry with you. It just rarely come up, because who ever joins trog when they have spells? (Because who ever joins Trog? You just pick BE usually)

assassin is a good background to join trog with, as he will gift you plenty of status inflicting needles (seems to be unique synergy with assassin background, i never got so many needles on any other background) on top of regular gifts and benefits

[grisamentum]

I always found it amusing that unusable weapons/armor/shields allow you to train the corresponding skill.

For example an Ogre can't use a buckler, but an Ogre carrying a buckler can train Shields.

[tasonir]

You are allowed to train magic skills when serving trog already. It just makes him angry with you. It just rarely come up, because who ever joins trog when they have spells? (Because who ever joins Trog? You just pick BE usually)

assassin is a good background to join trog with, as he will gift you plenty of status inflicting needles (seems to be unique synergy with assassin background, i never got so many needles on any other background) on top of regular gifts and benefits

I don't believe this is special cased to care about your assassin background, and if it is, it shouldn't be. But having a blowgun from the start and training some throwing skill will give trog the most time to start gifting you needles immediately, which would be a nice benefit if you're going to be using them.

[Sandman25]

Is there any progress on that? It's really frustrating to find +11 dagger of pain on Lair 1 and still no books with Necromancy spells after Lair/Orc/D1-15. Except Necronomicon of course.

[johlstei]

I think this change would be really great, but even if you don't, I'd hope it'd be even less controversial to let characters train necromancy by holding a pain weapon.

[jejorda2]

Is there any progress on that? It's really frustrating to find +11 dagger of pain on Lair 1 and still no books with Necromancy spells after Lair/Orc/D1-15. Except Necronomicon of course.

It may not be ideal, but worshipping Kiku lets one train Necromancy without knowing spells. There are probably better choices if you already have a pain weapon and a Necronomicon.

It makes sense for the game to let you train Necro when holding pain weapons (and relevant skills for staves), even if the other restrictions aren't lifted.

[Pereza0]

I think a good way to implement it would be the following:

If a skill ever becomes trainable, it never becomes untrainable.
Picking up a spellbook automatically makes all the schools in the book trainable.
Picking up a weapon makes that weapons class trainable
Shields become trainable when you pick one up.
Invocations become trainable if you worship a god that uses them

I think this is basically duvessa's proposal minus noobtraps and the issue with Invocations

[mechanicalmaniac]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the modern skill training restrictions are relics from the days of practical EXP allocation. That's not to say that there isn't still good in them, though.