Jiyva and transmuters.

[siprus]

If you are transmuter who has been pumping up your strength, and start worshiping jiyva, jiyva starts switching your strength into intelligence! Really messing up character. Of course you can work around this by timing starting worshiping jiyva your level up, and putting point in strength, but I think jiyva should remember last attribute you put attribute in so that it doesn't remove a stat you've been pumping up! (even if you did that pumping before you started worshipping) That or Jiyva should have higher preference for strength on characters who mainly use transmutation and unarmed combat.

[rockygargoyle]

This may be relevant: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=14547

[duvessa]

W...why would you be increasing strength on a transmuter in the first place?

[crate]

In my experience Jiyva gives really good stat shuffles to tm, yeah. I haven't played jiyva recently so I'm pretty sure stat shuffling has changed since I last tried, though.

My two jiyva tms ended up with 9/15/23 and 12/21/28 stats, both of which look really good. (My most recent non-jiyva tms ended up at 13/14/22 and 9/25/28, for reference.)

[Siegurt]

jivya uses your skills (in part) to determine what stats to shuffle, if, as a tm, you have trained more magic skills than fighting skills ( often the case with book starts particularly if you rush for the higher level spells, particularly since there are more of them to train ) you will lose physical stats for int.

Jiyva doesnt know or care that you didn't need any more int to cast your spells, or that the dex you had pumped was important for dodging.

If you want to reverse that trend, dunno your xp into related skills.

In all liklihood, crate's transmuters had very high dodge, probably decent stealth, decent fighting, and uc, and had trained spell skills only the bare minimum needed to cast the spells he wanted.

[damiac]

Isn't having to game Jivya to get the stats you want a Bad Thing (tm)? Particularly when auto-training is a thing?

"If you want to follow Jiyva as a transmuter, make sure to turn on manual training, then train just X transmutations, and make sure to train at least Y fighting, or your stats will be re-arranged poorly"

[PleasingFungus]

Isn't having to game Jivya to get the stats you want a Bad Thing (tm)? Particularly when auto-training is a thing?

"If you want to follow Jiyva as a transmuter, make sure to turn on manual training, then train just X transmutations, and make sure to train at least Y fighting, or your stats will be re-arranged poorly"

Here's a question: what, exactly, is the design purpose for Jiyva's stat-shuffling?

[Siegurt]

I suspect it was a similar idea to chei, get some bonuses from your stats. (In this case by changing rather than just getting blanket bonuses)

I suspect a better design might be to use the current weighting to give x bonus points to stats, where x is piety dependant.

Although that does eliminate the "permenent alteration to your body" thing that jiyva has going on (I know that "scum jiyva for stat alterations" has been a thing said by people in the past, I don't really think that is a thing worth hanging on to, personally)

[KittenInMyCerealz]

Maybe there should be an god-ability that lets you negate the whole stat-shuffle at will, but it would reduce your piety gain.
So either you let your stats shuffle or you may not be able to cure all the bad muts you get from jiyva and mutating monsters.

I mean the stat-shuffle fits the flavor and all but i do not think its the main point of jiyva.

[daggaz]

Maybe there should be a dev-ability that lets them negate the whole stat-shuffle at will, by removing that section of code from existence.

[siprus]

W...why would you be increasing strength on a transmuter in the first place?

Because your damage in dragon form and statue form is based on strength. I could accept if jiyva had buffed my dexterity then i could have gone with blade hands and natural dodging (at that point, dragon form decreased my defensive stats, though damage more than made up for it) The problem is that jiyva thinks transmuters need Int, which completely useless stat.

I remember someone mentioning that jiyva doesn't decrease attribute point you've buffed last time. I don't know if this is true, but It seems that jiyva doesn't take into account which stat you've buffed before you joined the religion. If jiyva's stat shuffle didn't decrease stat you buffed last, this wouldn't be as big problem.

Another solution could be to make transmutation school, not make jiyva prefer intelligence (as intelligence is completely useless for transmuters of jiyva, spell hunger isn't issue with jellies eating all the items, and spell success rate increases as you put more xp into transmutations skills)

In my experience Jiyva gives really good stat shuffles to tm, yeah. I haven't played jiyva recently so I'm pretty sure stat shuffling has changed since I last tried, though.

My two jiyva tms ended up with 9/15/23 and 12/21/28 stats, both of which look really good. (My most recent non-jiyva tms ended up at 13/14/22 and 9/25/28, for reference.)

Well looking at your characters stats, I'd find stats shuffle ability to have been irrelevant, but i guess jiyva isn't has horrible for dexterity based characters.

[PleasingFungus]

I remember someone mentioning that jiyva doesn't decrease attribute point you've buffed last time. I don't know if this is true, but It seems that jiyva doesn't take into account which stat you've buffed before you joined the religion. If jiyva's stat shuffle didn't decrease stat you buffed last, this wouldn't be as big problem.

I don't believe this is true; I can't find any trace of it in the code.

[njvack]

Although that does eliminate the "permenent alteration to your body" thing that jiyva has going on

Well... my experience with Jiyva is that my mutation set changes like quicksand, so it's more of a "constant change" theme to me.

My suspicion is that algorithm-based stat shuffling is apt to be frustrating more than it is satisfying — I think there's way to intuit the player's intent, and now that stats matter more, having them changed by your god can be really harmful. I think that either removing the behavior totally or making stat transfer into an active ability (eg, explicitly transfer a point from str to dex) would be better than the current behavior.

As an active ability, it might make sense for it to be available either a fixed number of times (say, once per piety star) or based on lifetime Jivya piety gained -- maybe n^2 or 2^n total piety, so each change becomes more expensive than the last.

Automatic stat shuffling might work better as a wrath effect.

[tasonir]

I've felt Jiyva could use a buff ever since item destruction went away and it was no longer a jiyva benefit. Direct control over shuffling your own stats might be a nice way to buff Jiyva, consider me on board. I'd say make it an active ability that costs some moderate piety with no limit on uses.

[dynast]

From my experience, the stat shuffing is accurate yet has some flaws(the main one being that people dont know how their god works), if you are training too much transmutations/spellcasting and not wearing armor you gonna end up with around 2 str, if you are using dragon form you gonna end up with negative str and if you are a vampire worshipping jiyva you will probly not be able to use bat form.

[siprus]

Although that does eliminate the "permenent alteration to your body" thing that jiyva has going on

Well... my experience with Jiyva is that my mutation set changes like quicksand, so it's more of a "constant change" theme to me.

My suspicion is that algorithm-based stat shuffling is apt to be frustrating more than it is satisfying — I think there's way to intuit the player's intent, and now that stats matter more, having them changed by your god can be really harmful. I think that either removing the behavior totally or making stat transfer into an active ability (eg, explicitly transfer a point from str to dex) would be better than the current behavior.

As an active ability, it might make sense for it to be available either a fixed number of times (say, once per piety star) or based on lifetime Jivya piety gained -- maybe n^2 or 2^n total piety, so each change becomes more expensive than the last.

Automatic stat shuffling might work better as a wrath effect.

I'll have to agree with this. I generally have enough control over attributes as they are, and computer controlled stat suffering has more potential to do more harm than good. Either it has potential to mess up your attributes, or it actually limits builds you can do because, it currently prevents your from rushing dragon form.

Of course tranmuters aren't the only worshippers of jiyva, but I find that transmuters could have most potential with jiyva, as they can't use armor with their higher level forms, which makes extra defenses of jiyva that much more useful and they don't tend to need to find as many non-artificat items as most characters, especially if character is from race that can't wear armor normally. Also such characters don't benefit much from other gods, expect for cheibriados.

[nago]

[Also such characters don't benefit much from other gods, expect for cheibriados.

This is totally false. Lots of Gods are extremely strong and good for Tm - much more than for others stronger backgrounds
Chei as always is the worst choice.

(thanked for mistake)

[damiac]

I would argue zin is the worst choice for a transmuter. Yeah, trog shuts off transmutations too, but then you still have trog.

[crate]

I like Jiyva stat shuffle and think it should stay mostly as-is, though possibly for characters who actually want str this isn't true (there are other reasons those characters don't want Jiyva anyway, though).

Making it into an active ability sounds bad, better to just remove it.

[siprus]

I like Jiyva stat shuffle and think it should stay mostly as-is, though possibly for characters who actually want str this isn't true (there are other reasons those characters don't want Jiyva anyway, though).

Making it into an active ability sounds bad, better to just remove it.

What reasons would those be?

[crate]

Jiyva gives you lots of free AC muts and also makes you have deformed body (via pseudopods) a large portion of the time. For light armour this is a net plus, for plate or so this is a net minus (defensively, anyway). EV is probably generally better than AC against the things that actually scare you if you worship Jiyva (big melee dudes you can just slime away, but it's melee-range so that doesn't work so well against e.g. bolt of fire), spells are good with jiyva. Then add to this that stat shuffle noticeably favors light armour characters....

[siprus]

Jiyva gives you lots of free AC muts and also makes you have deformed body (via pseudopods) a large portion of the time. For light armour this is a net plus, for plate or so this is a net minus (defensively, anyway). EV is probably generally better than AC against the things that actually scare you if you worship Jiyva (big melee dudes you can just slime away, but it's melee-range so that doesn't work so well against e.g. bolt of fire), spells are good with jiyva. Then add to this that stat shuffle noticeably favors light armour characters....

Strength is used for damage on dragon form and statue from. They are quite though spells to cast and they don't get benefits from armor, so big armor isn't issue since they won't be wearing it anyway.

[crate]

dex gives EV in dragon form and statue form
if you're not wearing heavy armour you pretty much don't want str, even in dragon or statue form
if you happen to get a lot of str (not at the expense of dex, or even int for statue form) then that's a bonus

edit: after a quick wizmode test it seems that against a single enemy that does nothing but melee you str and dex are pretty comparable for overall survivability for dragon form and statue form (considering both damage and defense); dex is much better when not in dragon form/statue form so I'd definitely rather have dex (and I would suggest but will not attempt to prove that dex is also better in the situations that aren't like "fsim-vs-stone-giant").

[kvaak]

Point 1: Statue form and dragon form do ludicrous damage based on... well, being in statue / dragon form. And that doesn't even include the fact 13 UC alone gives your punches the BASE DAMAGE of a great sword. The notion adding even more damage on top of that by pumping str is in any way recommendable or desirable when other options are available is nothing short of ridiculous. Some str is okay for BHing in heavy-ish armour though.

Point 2: Transmuters, are not in fact, limited to statue form or dragon form or spider form or ice form or whatever form. There's this very, very potent spell that melds nothing except your gloves and thus allows you to enjoy the full benefit of body armour, helmet, boots and cloak. This spell is called blade hands and you start with a book it's in. As it deals insane amounts of damage without melding your precious equipment or nuking your defenses or making you slow as shit or taking that much skill to cast I would argue it is in fact, often preferable and even superior to dragon/statue form. And why yes, I am aware the spell has limitations of its own. Didn't prevent me from using it almost exclusively even for extended. Well okay Gr is borderline cheating since you innately have basically all the good aspects of statue form with none of the bad.

Point 3: Jiyva is not a particularly desirable Tm god. Tm is a weak background, if you go Jiyva you either cripple yourself by not picking a god earlier to help your horrible start or you go TSO who is arguably far inferior to several other gods you could pick or you go Ely in which case... uh, you go Ely. Eww. When you finally do get Jiyva you get a bunch of unreliable mutations that keep coming and going and stat shuffle which probably does something silly like raise your int (unless you play weird combos like DETm). Slimify is wonderful though and a free rune never hurts.
Alternatively you find an early Jiyva altar in which case J might actually be good. I'd probably miss the loot too much to take on the offer though.

Permanent +5 to every single relevant non-spell skill at 1* is far superior to anything Jiyva could realistically offer at any relevant point in the game. Trust me.

25/01 00:42:18 <kvaak> !lg . won tm s=race,god
25/01 00:42:19 <Sequell> 26 games for kvaak (won tm): 2x Deep Dwarf (2x Makhleb), Spriggan (Okawaru), Salamander (Okawaru), Merfolk (Okawaru), Vine Stalker (Okawaru), Minotaur (Cheibriados), White Draconian (Okawaru), Naga (Okawaru), Halfling (Okawaru), Formicid (Cheibriados), Felid (Okawaru), Octopode (Gozag), Vampire (Cheibriados), Hill Orc (Cheibriados), Tengu (Okawaru), High Elf (Okawaru), Troll (Cheibriados), Human (Okawaru), Centaur (Okawaru), Gargoyle (Makhleb), Ogre (Okawaru), Demigod, Demonspawn (Okawaru), Deep Elf (Okawaru), Kobold (Okawaru).

Chei might be fun for messing around but he's the single worst god in the entire game if you actually want to win. Apart from Xom none of the other gods randomly kill you.

[crate]

fedhas -> jiyva best god choice

[Sandman25]

What's so good about Jiyva after Fedhas?

[duvessa]

fedhas is basically the best god in the game except possibly trog, since you get mushrooms at 1* and they will kill pretty much everything up to and including lair, orc, d:15
jiyva does quite a bit more than fedhas later in the game (unless you're doing extended there are only like 2 noticeable monsters that slimify doesn't work on) and having jiyva makes fedhas wrath almost entirely meaningless

it's similar to the reasons people do okawaru -> tso, except these reasons are actually true

[Sandman25]

I expected the answer but I still don't understand what's so good about Jiyva late game, there are multiple sources of rCorr in trunk, Oklobs shoot bolts through jellies.

[duvessa]

yeah fedhas wrath isn't really dangerous anyway, but if you're going to switch gods you might as well switch to jiyva, because jiyva is really extremely good (i wouldn't say this is specific to "late game" either, it's just almost literally impossible to worship jiyva "early game" - possibly the item eating would actually hurt there, but I haven't tried it since it is impossible)

and if you're going to use jiyva you might as well go fedhas first, since he is better at keeping early game characters alive than any other god except trog, and unlike trog, wrath is not a problem

[Sar]

I've played multiple Jiyva characters that found an early slime altar and jelly itemdest was not much of a problem.

[duvessa]

well the early slime altar vault is removed now so rip

[Sar]

this is the worst possible thing and I really mean it this time

[nago]

Wait, why?
Anyway in a recent game I got a slimified version of the temple (like the corrupted one, just with jiyva altars), maybe the odds to get a early altar are still the same

[Sandman25]

yeah fedhas wrath isn't really dangerous anyway, but if you're going to switch gods you might as well switch to jiyva, because jiyva is really extremely good (i wouldn't say this is specific to "late game" either, it's just almost literally impossible to worship jiyva "early game" - possibly the item eating would actually hurt there, but I haven't tried it since it is impossible)

and if you're going to use jiyva you might as well go fedhas first, since he is better at keeping early game characters alive than any other god except trog, and unlike trog, wrath is not a problem

Yes, that makes sense: if I want to play Jiyva, worshipping Fedhas first is a good idea. I believe Fedhas should not be abandoned in 3 rune games (Fedhas has the easiest Zot 5 IMHO) and for extended I would rather join good gods or Mahkleb.

[Sprucery]

Removing the early Jiyva altar vault makes me very sad, unless it is really compensated by generating the slimified temple.